Good guys with guns.

[Prometheus85]

With the mass shooting that took place in parkland yesterday you have a lot of people that are saying the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

18 school shootings so far in 2018.

And not one good guy with a gun came to save the day! Also there were armed grauds on the campus and they couldn’t prevent the shooting. Why do people continue to cling to this faulty logic?

 

[Revoltingest]

With the mass shooting that took place in parkland yesterday you have a lot of people that are saying the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

18 school shootings so far in 2018.

And not one good guy with a gun came to save the day! Also there were armed grauds on the campus and they couldn’t prevent the shooting. Why do people continue to cling to this faulty logic?

A minor quibble with the significance attributed to that number....
Looking into 2 of those shootings, they were by law enforcement
types (1 cop, 1 trainee) who each had an accident in a school.
Both accidents were easily preventable, which points towards
cops needing better training in gun safety.

 

[Prometheus85]

A minor quibble with the significance attributed to that number....
Looking into 2 of those shootings, they were by law enforcement
types (1 cop, 1 trainee) who each had an accident in a school.
Both accidents were easily preventable, which points towards
cops needing better training in gun safety.

Cops need better training in gun safety??? What are u talking about?

 

[Revoltingest]

Cops need better training in gun safety??? What are u talking about?

Did you read about those 18 shootings?
From my post in another thread....

From the linked article, these school shooting look highly preventable, since law enforcement types were the "perps".....
Jan. 10: Grayson College in Denison, Texas
A student confused a training weapon with a real one and fired a bullet through a classroom wall. No students were injured.
Bullet fired through classroom at Grayson College

Feb. 5: Harmony Learning Center in Maplewood, Minnesota
A third-grader discharged a police officer’s holstered gun while participating
in a group activity at the K-12 school. No injuries were reported.

I find this last one odd....what kind of holster allows access to the trigger?
This would be an incredibly unsafe thing to issue to cops...or anyone.

A problem with statistics reduced to a single number is that useful
information is lost. To understand their meaning, we need to look deeper.

 

[Orbit]

With the mass shooting that took place in parkland yesterday you have a lot of people that are saying the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

18 school shootings so far in 2018.

And not one good guy with a gun came to save the day! Also there were armed grauds on the campus and they couldn’t prevent the shooting. Why do people continue to cling to this faulty logic?

Here is some further info on that:

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

 

[Nakosis]

Cops need better training in gun safety??? What are u talking about?

Probably could use better training in methods of how to protect a school campus.

One armed guard. Maybe he was in the bathroom. Maybe he is lazy and sits around drinking coffee all day. Obviously this person was kind of useless and perhaps they need to reevaluate his position.

Give a guy a gun and no training or one who's not inclined to take his job seriously.

There is a problem there but I don't think not having an armed guard is a good solution. So yes perhaps better training.

 

[sun rise]

The minor quibble does not change the main point.

 

[Revoltingest]

The minor quibble does not change the main point.

Nor is it intended to.
But if at least 10% of school shootings are caused by cops or cops in
training (with no injuries, btw), this strongly points to one of 2 things:
- The cited statistic is misleading, or
- Cops need better training.

Or both.

 

[Nakosis]

Here is some further info on that:

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

Yes, guns do not stop criminals. The person holding the gun does.

Licensing to purchase a gun is left to local jurisdiction. Could cost anywhere from $5 for a permit to purchase to $900 in some areas.

Might need to federally regulate the licensing and training required to purchase a gun. Currently seems a little haphazard to me.

 

[Holdasown]

Most kids in school do not carry guns around as they are minors and it's a school. Teachers choosing not to is up to them. There are probation officers who choose not to.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, guns do not stop criminals. The person holding the gun does.

Licensing to purchase a gun is left to local jurisdiction. Could cost anywhere from $5 for a permit to purchase to $900 in some areas.

Might need to federally regulate the licensing and training required to purchase a gun. Currently seems a little haphazard to me.

An advantage to federal involvement would be to mitigate the complex
patchwork of laws, & make travel with guns less dangerous to the owner.

 

[Quintessence]

Why do people continue to cling to this faulty logic?

It's not about logic, it's about the appeal of the story. American culture is infatuated with stories about vigilante justice, everyday heroes, and personal power. The story of one human swooping in to "save the day" is told over and over in our culture. The story is so beloved, it is believed to apply outside of the realm of storytelling when it does not.

As has been remarked by others wiser on this issue than myself, the American people decided it was okay to have terrible gun control policies five years ago when no meaningful reforms were made after someone shot up a bunch of kids in an elementary school. Frankly, when our national government can't bother passing meaningful gun control legislation after that, I almost can't blame folks for thinking the vigilante will save us. It's about the only recourse we have left at this point. The war on this issue is already lost, and that won't change until some significant shifts happen in the ability of special interest groups to monopolize our governments.

 

[pearl]

Probably could use better training in methods of how to protect a school campus.

How to protect a school depends on how much money the local city is going to allow for school budgets, and that depends much on how affluent the town or city is.

 

[suncowiam]

It's not faulty logic. It's perfect logic if you're the NRA.

Now I'm forced to own a gun to be able to defend myself from others with guns.

This is my only reason to own a gun.

 

[Nakosis]

How to protect a school depends on how much money the local city is going to allow for school budgets, and that depends much on how affluent the town or city is.

So the poor folks are out of luck again?

 

[Holdasown]

It's not faulty logic. It's perfect logic if you're the NRA.

Now I'm forced to own a gun to be able to defend myself from others with guns.

This is my only reason to own a gun.

Not really forced. No one is forced to own a gun.

 

[suncowiam]

Not really forced. No one is forced to own a gun.

Well, I'm not bringing my rhetoric to a gun fight that was brought to me. Good luck with that.

 

[Holdasown]

Well, I'm not bringing my rhetoric to a gun fight that was brought to me. Good luck with that.

Perhaps it's the religion talking but even though we own guns for hunting I have never felt compelled to carry one all the time. Even though I work in an office where criminals are go in and out.

 

[BSM1]

With the mass shooting that took place in parkland yesterday you have a lot of people that are saying the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

18 school shootings so far in 2018.

And not one good guy with a gun came to save the day! Also there were armed grauds on the campus and they couldn’t prevent the shooting. Why do people continue to cling to this faulty logic?

I understand the emotional content of your post but, in all fairness, you should also look at how many crimes were derailed due to someone with a firearm on scene.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand the emotional content of your post but, in all fairness, you should also look at how many crimes were derailed due to someone with a firearm on scene.

There's a problem establishing this though. Gary Kleck has done much work on this,
finding many thousands of cases per year, but none on the anti-gun side accept his work.
Even discounting his findings by a factor of 10, self defense with a gun is significant.
The other problem is that news media will report wrongful killings because they're more
newsworthy, but justifiable killings are less dramatic. The NRA publishes these cases,
but alas, only NRA fans will ever read them. So the media paint a biased picture.

Even the Huff Po article about 18 school shootings in 2018 includes at least 2 cases
of cops behaving unsafely. No cop should let a child accidentally pull the trigger
of a loaded gun....that situation should not arise. But "18" is a big number, & makes
the statistics & news more dramatic, & so it becomes a "fact".