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Good Christians

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
  • No single group in human history has contributed more to education than Christians have
  • No group in human history has contributed more to healthcare than Christians have
  • Christians, more than anyone else, have contributed to the welfare and protection of children
  • No other group in human history has fought the slave trade more than Christians have
  • No other single group in human history have contributed more to the cause of charity than Christians.
Good things Christians have done in society

I'm not saying Christians hasn't caused some terrible atrocities. Or that humanitarian ideas originated with Christianity, but doesn't Christianity deserve some acknowledgement for carrying forth many of these humanitarian views into the modern age?

The golden rule may not have first originated in the Bible but wasn't it Christianity which spread the idea along with equality through western europe?

Hasn't Christianity brought some good into the world?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
  • No single group in human history has contributed more to education than Christians have
  • No group in human history has contributed more to healthcare than Christians have
  • Christians, more than anyone else, have contributed to the welfare and protection of children
  • No other group in human history has fought the slave trade more than Christians have
  • No other single group in human history have contributed more to the cause of charity than Christians.
Good things Christians have done in society

I'm not saying Christians hasn't caused some terrible atrocities. Or that humanitarian ideas originated with Christianity, but doesn't Christianity deserve some acknowledgement for carrying forth many of these humanitarian views into the modern age?

The golden rule may not have first originated in the Bible but wasn't it Christianity which spread the idea along with equality through western europe?

Hasn't Christianity brought some good into the world?

Christians have a great deal to be proud about. I do volunteer work at a free medical clinic for those most in need. We have a disproportionately high number of those with mental health problems, addictions, and involvement with the criminal justice system. The centre was started and run by Christians. We are committed to providing excellent primary healthcare. Recently we won an award in our country for being the best charitable health provider.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm not saying Christians hasn't caused some terrible atrocities. Or that humanitarian ideas originated with Christianity, but doesn't Christianity deserve some acknowledgement for carrying forth many of these humanitarian views into the modern age?
While Christianity was so busy with its largesse, it was also ensuring that no other competing group could exercise the same largesse.

In Europe, Christianity stepped into the administrative breach left when the Western Roman Empire collapsed... and in doing so, it amassed unimaginable wealth and power. It used this power to suppress dissidents and rival religions, so of course virtually all the progress that happened in Europe over the last ~1600 years happened under Christian oversight. I’m not sure how this is a mark in Christianity’s favour, though.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Christians are plentiful and they are humans. Humans are capable of both good and bad. Christians were avid slavers, for example, but some also took an active role in abolishing legal slavery.

However, since their Bible condones slavery, I don't think the argument that Christian teachings led to the abolition movement makes much sense.

The abolition of legal slavery, in my opinion, was conscience-driven just as the equal rights for women movement is conscience-driven. And, conscience is something all humans have regardless of their faith or lack thereof.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
  • No single group in human history has contributed more to education than Christians have
  • No group in human history has contributed more to healthcare than Christians have
  • Christians, more than anyone else, have contributed to the welfare and protection of children
  • No other group in human history has fought the slave trade more than Christians have
  • No other single group in human history have contributed more to the cause of charity than Christians.
Good things Christians have done in society

I'm not saying Christians hasn't caused some terrible atrocities. Or that humanitarian ideas originated with Christianity, but doesn't Christianity deserve some acknowledgement for carrying forth many of these humanitarian views into the modern age?

The golden rule may not have first originated in the Bible but wasn't it Christianity which spread the idea along with equality through western europe?

Hasn't Christianity brought some good into the world?
I would say no more or less than anybody else has. Just so you know, Christianity has not cornered the market on the humanities as being exceptional or unique.

That being said, sure, there are good people around who practice Christianity.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Christians are plentiful and they are humans. Humans are capable of both good and bad. Christians were avid slavers, for example, but some also took an active role in abolishing legal slavery.

However, since their Bible condones slavery, I don't think the argument that Christian teachings led to the abolition movement makes much sense.

The abolition of legal slavery, in my opinion, was conscience-driven just as the equal rights for women movement is conscience-driven. And, conscience is something all humans have regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

That's funny. Because in both Europe (all countries) and America, all types of slavery were abolished.

You know where slavery wasn't abolished? The Middle East and North Africa.

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Also, after the gradual secularization of the US, slavery was replaced with something far worse. Welfare.

Slavery Didn't Cause Today's Black Problems, Welfare Did | [site:name] | National Review

Unlike charity, welfare has a pricetag: higher taxes, which in turn lead to less bang for buck. Add to that an economy that doesn't keep up wages (they can't, because it drives businesses under) but continues to raise taxes, it is not just blacks who are now enslaved but everyone living in poor communities.

Also, slavery came back, through drug-based prostitution and illegal migrant labor.

This map shows where the world’s 30 million slaves live. There are 60,000 in the U.S.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Nakosis, you're asking people to take a fair and balanced view of some group or thing. Are you not aware that our species clearly evolved its superior intelligence to fling poo better than it's cousin apes? Sheesh! Do they teach nothing in the schools these days?

Beyond that, here are some quick elaborations:

No single group in human history has contributed more to education than Christians have

Catholicism kept alive classical learning, imported Arabic learning, and expanded on both. Beyond that, Protestantism generally valued educating everyone -- including women -- on the grounds they needed to read the bible as important to being saved.

No group in human history has contributed more to healthcare than Christians have

I think it's highly arguable the Greeks did as much as the Christians did in some key ways. However you can thank the Christians for your public sewer system. Beginning in the mid 1800s London, Christians pushed for public sewer systems in country after country. In the UK and US, at least, they were joined by "muckrakers". Muckrakers were progressive journalists who specialized in promoting social causes and unmasking the excesses of capitalism. Naturally, we should not speak too much of them these days, the lousy liberals!

It's been estimated that public sewers increased the average lifespan by 10% to 15%.

Christians, more than anyone else, have contributed to the welfare and protection of children

Arguably, childhood was a Victorian invention. Prior to the Victorians, children were seen as "little adults" and in need of few more protections than you'd give any small person. I do not know what Christianity had to do with coming to see children and childhood as in a special category all by themselves. I'd be interested in hearing the story of that.

No other group in human history has fought the slave trade more than Christians have

Here, you really must be careful. Underlying the slave trade was the creation around 1500 or so of an ideology that Africans were decisively inferior to other peoples. That ideology was rationalized in biblical terms. So, while Christianity did not inspired it, Christianity came to rationalize it. Make of that what you will.

No other single group in human history have contributed more to the cause of charity than Christians

Charity, maybe. But charity alone will never solve the problems it tries to ameliorate. Only a socially conscience people most likely employing government means can do that. And for that kind and degree of social conscience, we must thank the Jews, more than anyone else.

Beyond that, it seems to me highly arguable that Islam has done as much or more in terms of charity as Christianity.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
24 jun 2018 stvdv 012 37
I'm not saying Christians hasn't caused some terrible atrocities.

Hasn't Christianity brought some good into the world?

For a Christian Jesus is Paramount. Most important is the soul, heart, spirit however they call it, connected to their savior, bible, God.
Well known advice: Do (not do) unto others what you want others (not) to do unto you.
If a Christians don't like others to speak belittling about Jesus/Bible/Christianity, they should follow the same.

Sadly they still did not learn this most important lesson. 99% of the Christians I met belittle others' belief [my personal experience]
Christians always tell me "Jesus is the only way for all humans, also for you and atheists, humanists".
Per definition this is arrogant, demeaning. In short I call this very "sick".

I only met 1 honest Christian who replied "this is what I believe, so let me be arrogant then". At least she was honest. And I could finally answer "You are free to do so, I do not judge you or your religion. BUT your action makes me feel sick to my stomach, so I will never speak to you again, because I do not allow others to demean me, when I can avoid that". All the others were dishonest and told me "now you show no respect to me". This answer I expect from a narcissist not from a Christian.

If you step on my soul, then kissing up won't make that right. Especially after I explained it in very clear english

The moment they realize this truth, then I am willing to say "Yes finally the Christians do something good"

This truth I told my mother already at age 10. Too many Christians still do not get this. So I keep repeating if asked about it

Beautiful and perfect quote I found on this: People who belittle & demean you, criticize & judge you [especially soul/belief/feeling level], are the most negative & toxic people alive. Then when you try to stand up for yourself, they try to tell others that you are the "toxic" one. They say this because they can't stand it when you no longer allow them to run all over you & treat you like trash. They can't admit their own horrible behavior, so they try to make it look like it's all your FAULT..
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
While Christianity was so busy with its largesse, it was also ensuring that no other competing group could exercise the same largesse.

In Europe, Christianity stepped into the administrative breach left when the Western Roman Empire collapsed... and in doing so, it amassed unimaginable wealth and power. It used this power to suppress dissidents and rival religions, so of course virtually all the progress that happened in Europe over the last ~1600 years happened under Christian oversight. I’m not sure how this is a mark in Christianity’s favour, though.

I agree with you that Christianity more or less had a 1600 years long monopoly on some kinds of doing good. But I think such a notion can very easily be taken to absurd lengths.

There are some fairly obvious examples of Christians doing things that cannot be explained away as simply, "they had a monopoly on doing good". For instance, the Christians not only kept alive classical learning -- including parts that had no impact on their religion -- but they also imported Arabic learning into Christendom. To try to explain that in terms of a monopoly on doing good would strike me as superficial at best. But if you cannot explain it in those terms, then what substance supports devaluing or downgrading Christian good works on the basis of their having a monopoly?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Also, after the gradual secularization of the US, slavery was replaced with something far worse. Welfare.

Slavery Didn't Cause Today's Black Problems, Welfare Did | [site:name] | National Review

Unlike charity, welfare has a pricetag: higher taxes, which in turn lead to less bang for buck. Add to that an economy that doesn't keep up wages (they can't, because it drives businesses under) but continues to raise taxes, it is not just blacks who are now enslaved but everyone living in poor communities.

The notion that being a Christian does not entail paying attention to the social conscience of the Old and New Testaments seems to be both self-serving, and highly instructive of the sort of Christianity that is today so popular with America's fundamentalists.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
However, since their Bible condones slavery, I don't think the argument that Christian teachings led to the abolition movement makes much sense.

All I know is that the Northern Abolition Movement was lead by Christian pastors to some large degree, and that I've heard they could find passages in the bible to condemn slavery.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
@Nakosis, humans don't enjoy holding two contradictory ideas in their heads at once. That's why I'm guessing that, if this thread goes anywhere, we'll see some posters saying it ignores too much the evils of Christianity, and others saying it ignores too much the goods of Christianity. But just so you know, I think your OP does not blindly assert anything, but carefully and reasonably qualifies what it asserts.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Hasn't Christianity brought some good into the world?
Religions are a collection of tools intended to help their adherents live according to an accepted theological proposition. And like any tool, these can be used to create value, or to destroy it.

It's not religions that do good or evil, it's ourselves doing it, through our use of religion.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
All I know is that the Northern Abolition Movement was lead by Christian pastors to some large degree, and that I've heard they could find passages in the bible to condemn slavery.
If memory serves, the world's abolition movement was almost two centuries old when America finally caught up in 1865. A year later, in 1866, Pope Pius IX, leading his large Catholic faithful, declared that he found nothing in divine law against the buying and selling of slaves. I think the Quakers were on the right side morally in that one but their numbers don't compare to the Catholics.

What Does the Bible Say About Slavery?
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Hello. What you say is indisputable. For much more on this topic, I highly recommend 'Atheist Delusions' by Hart. Note he has a new translation of the New Testament out now, I am just about finished reading it. Anyway:

https://www.amazon.com/Atheist-Delu...preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch





  • No single group in human history has contributed more to education than Christians have
  • No group in human history has contributed more to healthcare than Christians have
  • Christians, more than anyone else, have contributed to the welfare and protection of children
  • No other group in human history has fought the slave trade more than Christians have
  • No other single group in human history have contributed more to the cause of charity than Christians.
Good things Christians have done in society

I'm not saying Christians hasn't caused some terrible atrocities. Or that humanitarian ideas originated with Christianity, but doesn't Christianity deserve some acknowledgement for carrying forth many of these humanitarian views into the modern age?

The golden rule may not have first originated in the Bible but wasn't it Christianity which spread the idea along with equality through western europe?

Hasn't Christianity brought some good into the world?
 

Sahjananda

New Member
Religions are a collection of tools intended to help their adherents live according to an accepted theological proposition. And like any tool, these can be used to create value, or to destroy it.

It's not religions that do good or evil, it's ourselves doing it, through our use of religion.
Religion is a belief system. It has its boundaries. it tends to be exclusive and creates power centers. There will be a mission to expand its boundaries and increase its members. Where there is ambition to expand there is inherent violence. Christianity has done wonderful things in its works of education, health care, charity and social emancipation. But its expansionism produced lot of violence in the world as it tried to impose itself joined with political forces. Hence there is lot of good side in Christian history but also dark side.Today we need to understand Christ beyond the boundaries of Christianity. I distinguish Christ from Christianity. Jesus Christ is not identical with Christianity. Different Christian churches are different interpretations of Jesus' message. They have some truth of Jesus but no Christian Church contains the fullness of Jesus Truth. Jesus' message is unity and peace. It is not exclusive. It is not expansionism. His truth breaks down all the barriers and initiates one God, one creation and one humanity. This is something we,Christians need to rediscover.
 
That's funny. Because in both Europe (all countries) and America, all types of slavery were abolished.

You know where slavery wasn't abolished? The Middle East and North Africa.

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Also, after the gradual secularization of the US, slavery was replaced with something far worse. Welfare.

Slavery Didn't Cause Today's Black Problems, Welfare Did | [site:name] | National Review

Unlike charity, welfare has a pricetag: higher taxes, which in turn lead to less bang for buck. Add to that an economy that doesn't keep up wages (they can't, because it drives businesses under) but continues to raise taxes, it is not just blacks who are now enslaved but everyone living in poor communities.

Also, slavery came back, through drug-based prostitution and illegal migrant labor.

This map shows where the world’s 30 million slaves live. There are 60,000 in the U.S.
Russia is partly in Europe and they used korean slaves to build that world cup stadium.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Poor living conditions? That is unfortunate but does not necessarily equate with slavery. I have seen how migrant farm workers in central California live. Horrible, but they are not slaves. Exploited? Yes, but they are not slaves.



I forget. It was in the papers. One of them died and then they found their living conditions..
 
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