Going against the natural order

[Adramelek]

Ninth - What we call self is a lie, destroy it![/quote]

Write back to me in about five years Drax, if you're still actively exploring the LHP see if you still agree with this statement. :sarcastic

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[jasonwill2]

Whoa, where to start?

"I am within and beyond you, the Highest of Life, in majesty greater than the forces of the Universe; whose eyes are the Face of the Sun and the Dark Fire of Set; who fashioned your intelligence as his own and reached forth to exalt you; who entrusted to you dignity of consiousness; who opened your eyes that you might know beauty; who brought you the key to knowledge of all lesser things; and who enshrined in you the Will to Come Into Being. Lift your voices, then, and recognize the Highest of Life who thus proclaims your triumph; whose being is beyond natural life and death; who came as a flame to your world and enlightened your desire for perfection and truth..."

I know that the Temple of Set does not identify as Satanist anymore, but right on, I believe that is what Satan/Set/whatever you want to call him has done.

This is a simple list of philosophies I hold. Actually doing the things listed is self destructive. Do not read these if you are of a weak mindset.


First - Morality is limiting, smash it!
Second - If it disgusts you, embrace it!
Third - If you are obsessed with it, pursue your obsession!
Forth - If it hurts, seek more of it!
Fifth - Doubt is vile, exalt it!
Sixth - Everyone is a hypocrite!
Seventh - War is growth, peace is stagnation!
Eighth - Anyone can cast off tyranny, defeat the perceived bad guy and walk perfectly upright as a result with no hindrance of motion. Do the opposite! Embrace tyranny as it crushes you to dust!
Ninth - What we call self is a lie, destroy it!

The Left Hand Path is MUCH more than just embracing destruction. Destruction has it's place, but by no means are these maxims to be followed for one who seeks true progress and not their own deaths. As LaVey said, life is the great indulgence and death is the great abstinence. I choose self-preservation as the ultimate good over death brought about by such ideas. That is, if you take such maxims literally. I greatly hope that you do not actually follow these maxims letter for letter, or else your life will be quite short and have few friends. The only one I can agree with at all is seven, but at that I would add the word "perpetual peace", and put "conflict" in place of war. I can't speak for others, but I see that we shouldn't go out to break every taboo and rule, but only the ones that need breaking. Some taboos are taboo for a very good reason: they can get you killed.

Say a rule is to not sleep on train tracks or horse around with guns... I'm sure as heck not going to break those rules, I wouldn't even want to. They could get me killed, and I'm pretty Left Handed. Some moderation is needed (or in other words "indulgence, not compulsion").

Do animals in nature purposely inflict pain (torture) to obtain information, power or pleasure? Humans do.

Other than information, yes, actually they do. There is documented cases of rape and self mutilation in the animal kingdom. Birds will pluck out their own feathers, and a certain species of duck are known to be rapists, and in one supposed case even raped a corpse (the scientist saw it out of his window but had no direct proof other than his own account).

LHP go against the social flow....society goes against nature so LHP flow with nature?

This is how I view it, in terms of Satanic Left Hand Path, with Satan being an arch-type for the human being collectively, both a destroyer and a creator, both loving and hating. Negative emotions are just as natural as positive ones, and by denying ourselves either side, we are making ourselves ill. A god being completely evil and destructive all the time or completely good and loving all the time is just absurd to me. Nothing is as black and white like that, why would the gods be so black and white if our world is not? Because the world is fallen? HA! The fact is that the world is chaotic, and instead of trying to make a moral and static code about it, the Left Hand Path embraces the chaos that is part of the Universe. (the part about a fallen world and how it relates I will get to in a bit)

As I said, I believe that the LHP is more natural and healthy, so the idea that our world is fallen is silly to me, especially since I'm a pantheistic Satanist. That would mean that The Cosmic God (The Darkness I call it) as well is fallen. And if that was so, everything would be fallen and "unnatural", which would include The Darkness's conscious fragment (Satan) to be fallen and unnatural as well.

It then for me creates a situation, from my perspective, where everything is either natural or unnatural by it's inherent status of being literally God. I am inclined to believe that The Darkness is anything but fallen.

So if we are not fallen, giving into instincts and "sin" is natural, and not wrong. Therefore indulging in sin and our instincts as we personally and individually see fit is actually the correct way. The only incorrect way is to deny yourself your true nature. Moral codes can often do this. It is not coincidence that the Christian church formulated the "sins" as things that we must all do to survive. Considering that they say mankind is inherently sinful, it makes sense. They twisted around what was natural and called it "sin", and then we turned it around again and called out the true sin: self-denial of your true nature.

(Though I hold that the "original sin" and root of all true evil is dishonesty. It would be against my nature to lie, and by extension, imply that any form of lying outside of self-preservation or war is okay. Lying being against my nature that is.)

overall on the general point of the Left Hand Path and what it means:

The origin of "LHP" and "RHP" was from Hindu, which was only two approaches at the same goal in Eastern Thought. In terms of the Western World, it was historically used to call the occult groups that you didn't like "LHP" and yourself "RHP".

It wasn't until LaVey got the idea of embracing The Left Hand Path as a badge of honor that people everywhere started calling themselves Left Hand Path. In truth, the breaking of the taboo of the Left Hand Path was in itself a very Left Hand Path thing to do.

Nowdays the only ones who really use the terms Left Hand and Right Hand anymore... well are us Left Handed Path groups. Most Right Hand Path groups do not even use the terms anymore. The actual purpose of embracing the label "Left Hand Path" has mostly lost its meaning apart from saying that "we like our personal anarchism and question moral codes".

That is all it has really become lately. Whenever I used the term I typically mean use it in the meaning of the definition on Wikipedia, which seems more than adequate enough for me. Look up "Left Hand Path" and it will redirect you to an article called "Right and Left Hand Path" to see what I mean.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

Whoa, where to start?

I know that the Temple of Set does not identify as Satanist anymore, but right on, I believe that is what Satan/Set/whatever you want to call him has done.

With everything else in this post that you have said and that I find truthful, this quote makes me think you're on the wrong team.

When I first came here, I learned that Dr. Aquino was a former Satanist who founded ToS; I had assumed he had his order of operations wrong. But after listening to a podcast where he explained the formation of ToS, I may be signing up later. Set is an older archetype; but what's even better for the Setian is the ability to tell Christians about the historical record before telling them to take a hike.

And as a defense of the nine of Drax, you can ask me; and I will give you an answer. "Destruction of self" is easy-peasy. "Self" is a reinforced pattern brought about by everyday life, but if you want to go and experience Set; that pattern will most likely will hold you back. Having said thus, I must warn the reader that there is a certain danger with "abandoning the self;" my concern is one day the authorities will be called because something stinks, and somebody's going to have to toss this body in the recycle bin.

 

[Drax]

Whoa, where to start?
but by no means are these maxims to be followed for one who seeks true progress and not their own deaths. As LaVey said, life is the great indulgence and death is the great abstinence.

What is death? Does anyone really know? Is it something for us to fear or shy away from because it is the end of our perception of the world?

I take a controversial view on death and dying, which is different from most people I tend to encounter. First, I know I will die (as everyone mostly does) but I do not wish to die in my sleep or peacefully. I want to experience it as fully as possible. If it is the end, then it is my last flesh and memory/brain experience. I do not wish to lose that. If it is one of many, then no harm done really.

What is pain? Pleasure we have yet to know.
What is pleasure? What we have come to accept and enjoy.

As for self destruction, it can result in death (like everything can) and it does increase risk factors. However, the goals are purely to get 'beyond self' which is a programmed/conditioned husk of a thing which hinders our true potential. Once we destroy that husk, what we become is another entire concept.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

The greed of individuals to enhance their mortal identity with material artifact is pandemic. It is also, in my opinion, shortsighted and foolish. Today is an infinite vista, and my greed reflects my vision; information. I want to know, I want to witness, I want to experience; and in fulfilling my greed, resource is not consumed, rather I am the resource creating more information.

Death is an illusion, the engineering tolerance of a biological mainframe. The software that breaks free of the hardware simply returns to Set.

 

[Kori Houghton]

LHP go against the social flow....society goes against nature so LHP flow with nature?

Societies form successfully when they are a response to a need that arises from changing (natural) conditions. But social structures become obsolete over time, and so the natural 'flow' puts older social structures in the position of being 'against nature'. The LHP, IMO, is the way of thinking and acting outside the box in terms of human created standards that make up the box, rather than being some 'unnatural' intellectual exercise. The way of the natural universe is always change, through trial and error.

 

[Kori Houghton]

Death is an illusion, the engineering tolerance of a biological mainframe. The software that breaks free of the hardware simply returns to Set.

So you do not consider yourself as having an individual conciousness, then? And you believe (for the moment) that Set is a name for the Universal Mind, or something like that?

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

So you do not consider yourself as having an individual conciousness, then? And you believe (for the moment) that Set is a name for the Universal Mind, or something like that?

What is the point of individual consciousness? Locality and nothing more. All identity is dual-state as long as there is time. In the eternal now, Judith is the locality of body, Set the locality of mind. In my limited experience using the identifier Setian, I have heard of no compulsion to define Set in any single doctrine or dogma; but rather to maximize the conception of Set at the individual level for personal growth.

An active faith, if you will.

 

[Adramelek]

What is the point of individual consciousness? Locality and nothing more. All identity is dual-state as long as there is time. In the eternal now, Judith is the locality of body, Set the locality of mind. In my limited experience using the identifier Setian, I have heard of no compulsion to define Set in any single doctrine or dogma; but rather to maximize the conception of Set at the individual level for personal growth.

An active faith, if you will.

How would you define "personal growth" without the concept of individual Self-Consciousness?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[1137]

How would you define "personal growth" without the concept of individual Self-Consciousness?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I wonder this also. We are supposed to be completely individual spiritual I think. Help others in the world, yes. But when it comes to your spiritual beliefs you should be completely selfish. I always tell people I am not responsible for their enlightenment. If they are wrong spiritually, that is their problem. If we share some consciousness, there is no point.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

How would you define "personal growth" without the concept of individual Self-Consciousness?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

Locality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Wave_off_Kanagawa

Ever see this picture? How some fingers of the wave are ahead of the swell? There we are. One of those fingers is Judith, one of those fingers is Adramelek; and the sheep are being carried along by the tide.

 

[1137]

Locality.

The Great Wave off Kanagawa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ever see this picture? How some fingers of the wave are ahead of the swell? There we are. One of those fingers is Judith, one of those fingers is Adramelek; and the sheep are being carried along by the tide.

So shouldn't you individually want to be ahead of the swell? That would be individual consciousness to make sure you are in front, whether others are or not. With a group consciousness we would all simply be the ocean, all equal and working with each other. Does this not defeat the purpose of the LHP?

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

So shouldn't you individually want to be ahead of the swell? That would be individual consciousness to make sure you are in front, whether others are or not. With a group consciousness we would all simply be the ocean, all equal and working with each other. Does this not defeat the purpose of the LHP?

The collective consciousness is a given supported by mathematics and psychology; I mean, as far as I know.

So I'm not quite following what you are saying. It could be that my perception has always been mathematical, and that many people simply do not think in those terms. Locality prevents us from being fully aware of the collective consciousness, gives us the sense of individuality; as individuals we do the best we can with what we have.

Consider this. The HTML states "dark orange," but there is a single hexadecimal representation. But are any two people going to witness the same color? Not exactly.

 

[1137]

The collective consciousness is a given supported by mathematics and psychology; I mean, as far as I know.

So I'm not quite following what you are saying. It could be that my perception has always been mathematical, and that many people simply do not think in those terms. Locality prevents us from being fully aware of the collective consciousness, gives us the sense of individuality; as individuals we do the best we can with what we have.

Consider this. The HTML states "dark orange," but there is a single hexadecimal representation. But are any two people going to witness the same color? Not exactly.

A collective consciousness, or a higher state of consciousness that is shared? A collective consciousness would suggest that we are not individuals, and individuality is simply an illusion. It may also suggest that we are nothing that a hive mind, all bound to each other, and therefore eliminating free will. If you mean a higher state of consciousness that is shared, that would mean that we are here, now, and must individually advance spiritually to a higher level where we become One with the All.

 

[Iti oj]

A collective consciousness, or a higher state of consciousness that is shared? A collective consciousness would suggest that we are not individuals, and individuality is simply an illusion. It may also suggest that we are nothing that a hive mind, all bound to each other, and therefore eliminating free will. If you mean a higher state of consciousness that is shared, that would mean that we are here, now, and must individually advance spiritually to a higher level where we become One with the All.

maybe its more like multiple personalities.... or like a many headed hydra.

 

[Drax]

A collective consciousness, or a higher state of consciousness that is shared? A collective consciousness would suggest that we are not individuals, and individuality is simply an illusion. It may also suggest that we are nothing that a hive mind, all bound to each other, and therefore eliminating free will. If you mean a higher state of consciousness that is shared, that would mean that we are here, now, and must individually advance spiritually to a higher level where we become One with the All.

We might BECOME a hive mind, you never know. Technology is our evolutionary path.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

We might BECOME a hive mind, you never know. Technology is our evolutionary path.

That would be my guess. More like Reynolds' conjoiners than Star Trek's Borg.

 

[1137]

We might BECOME a hive mind, you never know. Technology is our evolutionary path.

Technology is only important in this current state or existence, for these temporal lives. Spiritual advancement is more important than technological advancement.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

Technology is only important in this current state or existence, for these temporal lives. Spiritual advancement is more important than technological advancement.

I'd say we're cooked without technological advancement; but I'd also agree with you as spiritual advancement has some catching up to do, for the majority of people.

 

[Drax]

Technology is only important in this current state or existence, for these temporal lives. Spiritual advancement is more important than technological advancement.

Why is it important? What even IS 'spiritual advancement' or for that matter, spirit?