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Featured Gods will or Free will. Which dominates?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by We Never Know, May 11, 2021.

  1. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Do you really want to open the whole "god is in complete control" can of worms?
    II mean, I understand that theists give god all the credit for all the good.
    But the vast majority of them also blame humans and their free will for all the bad stuff....
    Now if god is honestly in complete control....
     
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  2. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    as per thread title.....

    if God's will fails to dominate

    He is not God
     
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  3. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Don't know about God's will.

    Humans have physical needs, ostensibly from nature, and human "will" comes down to formulating strategies for fulfilling those needs.
     
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  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I am not like the vast majority of theists because I think logically. :D
    If God is responsible for the good things that happen, God is also responsible for the bad things that happen.
    That is why God is often in my dog house....;)

    The caveat is that God is not responsible for the free will decisions that humans make.
     
  5. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    Would say that a persons free-will when it comes to living in our bodies, is only fleshly (body) (material - earthly). As human beings we all make the choice to wake up, and take a shower or not take a shower, sleep with or with out a fan, eat whatever type of food, and it is all the expensive of your mind that has thoughts on what you want to do, and the desires you have in what you desire, and the emotions you have with-in you, and what you do when you make the choice to react with those emotions.

    ~ Our flesh is the most dominate thing on the planet. ( I believe ) ~ Our Free-Will. Some may disagree with that though. (Galatians 5:19-21 ~ Flesh)

    When it comes to Gods will, : ( wrote about it yesterday: Your Thoughts on God's Will For Believers In Christ Jesus?) If you are curious to know more about the Christian Gods will and purpose for a believer in Christ Jesus is.
     
    #25 MatthewA, May 12, 2021
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    How do you equate flesh with free will? Isn't free will what God gave us so we could make choices?
     
  7. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    Good question: Trailblazer; I'll try to explain,

    Because of the mind/will/emotion ~ The Soul - which is in a body.

    I have a soul that lives in my body. I control my body, and type. I have a mind, I have a will, and I have emotions.

    All human beings have souls : All people are in a body; they have a mind; they have a will, they have emotions. All people have free-will choice, by and through the flesh in which they live with-in and reside with-in. Until we pass away, from this body, and go on ward to be judged, and resurrected and given a spiritual body by God ~ According to the Christian Faith

    (Though some may believe differently or disagree ~
    (General Audience) do not believe me and check the bible and go see what is true when it comes to what the scriptures have to say about these things.)

    What do you think about this?
     
  8. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    If there is an omnipotent, omniscient creator, then free will in humans makes not the slightest bit of sense. Such a god would effectively have chosen all of out nature, nurture, and life of experience. Free will is nonsensical anyway, except for in the compatibilist sense.
     
  9. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Free will here is that God desires the company of people that willfully desire His companionship.

    Forcing people to be good and upright accomplishes nothing.

    God's will is that all mankind be saved.

    If God didn't allow this freedom then none of us would become who we truly are.

    So free will aligns with God's will.

    The finality of becoming who we truly are is what brings either God's judgment or mercy.

    God knows the beginning from the end because humanity is utterly predictable to God. Plus outside of time God sees the whole of the entirety of time. So God jibes with the B Theory of time. God can intervene at any point and time. God knows His own character and what moves Him and what doesn't. God knows and is master of fate's and destiny's. According to God there is an uttermost sinfulness. God can save to the uttermost, but beyond that point a person is fixed in their decision to go against God.

    According to God there are temporal and eternal choices humans make. Once someone makes an eternal choice they no longer wish for the other side of things. So there is eternal finality from total free will to choose between good and evil.

    One thing Jesus says is Father forgive them, they know not what they do. So God allots the freedom to everyone the ability to discover the full knowledge of their own will. So there's no mistaking one's self.

    I believe it was Cain who sought a place of repentance carefully with tears and ultimately found there was no place in him that desired a truthful repentance.

    As for me I believe this is all just literature that was written for people to be certain and believe that the stories were all true. Perhaps an ancient attempt to control people, and persuade others to live according to the moral code they dictated.
     
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  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Have you thought of free will being Gods will? If Gods will, was to humans having free will, the dichotomy is an oxymoron. Think about it.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I think that is fairly accurate. Although I do not believe that soul is actually inside of the body, I believe it is associated with the body while we are alive on earth, and it is the soul that animates the body and allows the body to function. Then when our physical body dies our soul passes on to the spiritual world (heaven) and God gives us a spiritual body, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:40-54. Our soul then becomes associated with our spiritual body.

    I believe we all have a mind, a will, and emotions, and we have free will because God gave it to us. I believe that the soul (the human spirit) is associated with the body (and thus the brain and mind) while we are alive on earth in a physical body.

    “The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.
    Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209
     
    #31 Trailblazer, May 12, 2021
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
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  12. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    Hello osgart, Free will here is that God desires the company of people that willfully desire His companionship. Would agree that God desires for people to come to the knowledge and truth, (1 Timothy 2:1-6) ~ Jesus Christ is the mediator between man/woman - and God.

    Would agree that forcing people to be a certain way does not accomplish anything. Because forcing implies rules, and rules imply compliance, which implies burden on a human beings life that are tiresome and and sometimes can be ever overburdening.

    You are right God will/desire is to mankind to be saved and come the knowledge of the truth. ( 1 timothy 2:1-6)

    That is right; if God would not have allowed Adam and Eve freedom to be able to have choice ~ All creation would have just been robots, with no choice and no mistakes. Our whole existence would have been warped to what we know as reality today. By the ability as human beings to have free-will and choice in this life as we live it, and by our experience it does as you say make us who we are.

    Osgart, for me personally could not say that free will aligns with God's will on the basis of God not being able to go against his own nature which is : God is spirit/ God is Consuming Fire/ God is Love (John 4:24;Hebrews 12:29; 1 John 4:7-21) according to the scriptures. God does not lie ( Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18; Numbers 23:19), God does not tempt (James 1:13-15)

    Considering God is Spirit : And Man is of Flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) ~ Free-will choice is greatly opened for all pleasures and things of material wealth, and what is offered by and through community choices ; whatever you can think of doing as a human being bad or good. ~ Jesus Christ came in flesh and experienced (Hebrews 4:15) the same thing we did today, ~ And because of God's spirit residing in Jesus Christ ~ the Lord Jesus Christ overcame the world (John 16:33)~ Believers die with Christ in baptism (Romans 6:3-5) Raised again to new life (Colossians 3:1-4), The spirit produces fruits of love in a believers life ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), and a person is set free by and through faith in Christ Jesus (Galatians 5:1); set free from sin (Romans 6:18) And from religious bondage.

    There seems to be a lot of things that contrast between what the flesh is obviously capable of doing, and what the spirit is capable of doing by and through Christ Jesus in many of these scriptures here outlined in the above to text to encourage you to take a look at and see what you think about them. Please check all things in context, and please remember I might be wrong.​

    // Jesus Christ can help believers (Ephesians 1:13); in their life over come many things ~ The Gospel explains many times of people becoming fulfilled and healed again (though do not believe those things happen today like then) ~ do believe people can be fulfilled spiritually inside by the spirit through faith and believing and trusting God and Jesus Christ. ~~ If you are doing so, if you do not believe this that is fine : Please reject it and throw it away and consider anything that is presented to you as no good, unless there is something good to be learned from it and it helped you.



    Okay, and thank you for your comment, and time!
     
    #32 MatthewA, May 12, 2021
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
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  13. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I should have said that the existence of free will aligns with God's will.
     
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  14. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    Hello Osgart

    Maybe God's intention to create humans to be and have freedom possibly? Do you possibly mean this by chance? Forgive me; and thank you again for your comment!
     
    #34 MatthewA, May 12, 2021
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
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  15. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Free will, without a doubt!

    What did Jesus tell us to pray for? For ‘God’s Kingdom to come, His will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.’

    If we are to pray for it, doesn’t that mean that His will isn’t being done today?

    When you think about it, Jehovah God has been more patient than anyone, ever.

    And Jehovah will continue to be patient, until He deems the issues of Sovereignty and truthfulness, raised in Genesis 3:1-6, are completely settled.
    But Jehovah God will step in, soon. Revelation 11:18.
    And never again will there be a question as to whether God’s rulership is necessary.

    Our Free will, will still prevail. The only difference will be that all living under His Kingdom rule (with His Son as King), will be those who want His rule (I hope that will always include me!)....the decisions we make then, will always be in harmony with God’s standards.
     
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  16. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Since there is evidence that are human beings who can potentially have free will and there's absolutely no evidence for any sort of a god being, I'd have to say free will.
     
  17. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I think to say God is life and the giver of it implies that God desires our freedom. So there must be ultimate freedom in God's truth.

    Everything of God being summed up in the word love or charity. So everything against God would be total oppression, and nothing to do with love.

    So God desires us to be supreme in character as God is. Because supreme character is ultimate freedom.

    The question that so often gets put to me is this, do you know that the God of the Bible is the truth?

    And I always answer that reality tells a very different story.

    But the Bible is very fascinating, and it's even more fascinating that so many believe in it.

    Of all the things I've been taught I could make a lot of sense of it. But of all the questions I have in life, the Bible fails to give answers. And there are more controversial stories in the Bible that have no moral justification with me.
     
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  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Please bear in mind when Jesus asked us to pray for that.... He asked 2000 years ago...
    What makes you think that God's will isn’t being done today?
    Maybe all the prayers have worked and are still working.;)
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I'd say both human free will and God's will since there is evidence for both.
    I'd say that human free will dominates since that is the way God wanted it to be.
     
  20. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Hope you’re doing well, Trailblazer!

    Fair question....
    Because we don’t see the fulfillment of Psalms 37:10-11, Isaiah 11:6-9, Isaiah 35, Revelation 11:18, Revelation 21:3-4, etc.


    Be safe.
     
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