God's power

[dan]

That is not possible, however He still did it. I would like to know though if raising people from the dead is actually possible with our natural laws of today. If not, then God definately broke them there. God ultimately has power over all of nature and can command it to do whatever He wants it to do.

If you showed a helicopter to Isaac Newton he would marvel at how you defied the law of gravity; but we know that the helicopter only takes advantage of other laws that are in effect. God has access to laws that we will never be aware of as human beings. He lives higher laws than us, but He never breaks the laws that are set in motion.

You're still thinking inside the box.

 

[Corban]

"I also believe god does not and cannot create matter and that God follows natural laws, because just as you said of the power to sin, these are not powers, and therefore not included in "all powers" when speaking of God as being "all powerful""- Corban

I would say though that creating matter and energy are powers. While sin is a detriment of imperfection, creating matter and energy are not detriments. Again, I would like to know that if God did not create the natural laws then who did (or what did)? See if God did not create the natural laws then He is bound by the same thing that binds us as humans. In the end, He becomes just a higher being with some tricks up his sleeve. God gave life to the dead (i.e. Lazarus). That is not possible, however He still did it. I would like to know though if raising people from the dead is actually possible with our natural laws of today. If not, then God definately broke them there. God ultimately has power over all of nature and can command it to do whatever He wants it to do.

To answer that i would like you to go and turn on your telivision, but with one restraint you can't use electricity, you can't plug it in to any power source. did your telivision work? of course not it needs power in some form to work. Raising dead can be done, but it requires a power we do not possess. God's power is as real as electricity, it is a natural power that only He holds, and is required for raising the dead and doing other things we call "miracles" those withought a knowledge of electricity would call a lightbulb a miracle, because to them it defies natural laws. those whithought a knowledge of God's power would call raising the dead a miracle, because to them God's power is not real.

And in regard to who created the natural laws, my answer is the same person who created God, if God can be eternal and uncreated so can natural laws, i believe they have always existed as has God.

 

[Corban]

If god can't create matter, then how can you attribute creation to him?

I attribute creation to Him in the sense that he took matter that was unorganized and organized it. He created in the same way i create dinner, i take materials that are unorganized and i organize them into something that didn't exist before, even though the elements they are made of did exist.

 

[Runt]

Corban--

If matter already existed independently of any action on God's part, then the laws which define the nature of matter and govern its behavior existed as well. Therefore, the force behind creation is that which is already in place without God: matter and its laws. If God did not create matter, or the natural laws, then the entire universe could have formed into what we know it as today without a single action on His part.

 

[Corban]

Corban--

If matter already existed independently of any action on God's part, then the laws which define the nature of matter and govern its behavior existed as well. Therefore, the force behind creation is that which is already in place without God: matter and its laws. If God did not create matter, or the natural laws, then the entire universe could have formed into what we know it as today without a single action on His part.

that makes as much sense as saying my lasagna could have been formed withought an action on my part because the ingreadients it is made of existed before.

 

[Runt]

The difference is between natural and unnatural phenomena. The only reason lasagna needs you to “shape” it is because the types of matter composing lasagna are not normally brought into contact and subjected to certain conditions (i.e. temperature for only x amount of time) without outside influence. The natural world, however, can very easily be the result of a bunch of “random” occurrences governed completely by the natural laws--which God did not create and which do not require God’s interference to work.

 

[Paraprakrti]

I agree with Corban that God does not create material energy. God and His energies exist eternally...

Also, the word "random" constitutes a lack of perceiving order. It is not that order is absolutely non-existent. In all reality, there is no such thing as randomness, chance, chaos, etc. These are all imperfect, relative perceptions.

You may not perceive the order-er of natural phenomena, but order is still the absolute quality. If your reasoning ultimately leads you to a lack of order, then your perception is flawed.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Runt put the word random in quotes for a reason I think. The natural patterns which caused the formation of the earth do indeed seem random at first, constituting the idea of a 'creator', however it is more likely that these patterns are just beyond our ability to fully document.

 

[Corban]

The difference is between natural and unnatural phenomena. The only reason lasagna needs you to “shape” it is because the types of matter composing lasagna are not normally brought into contact and subjected to certain conditions (i.e. temperature for only x amount of time) without outside influence. The natural world, however, can very easily be the result of a bunch of “random” occurrences governed completely by the natural laws--which God did not create and which do not require God’s interference to work.

you misunderstand. God is eternal and the laws by which God abides are eternal, yet they are tied to God, they are subject to Him and He has ultimate power over them, they have always existed, and they have always been under the controlling influence of God, who directs their order and governs their existence according to His perfect knowledge,.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Corban,

You say that matter has always existed, and that the laws which govern matter have always existed...then you say that god, having always existed as well, is in control of them, and therefore created the universe. It seems to me that you are agreeing with science and still trying to keep god in the picture, simple as that. I don't know how familiar you are with the concept of 'Occum's Razor', but it basically states that the simplest explanation is often the right one. Which is simpler to you? 1) matter has always existed and acts in patterns according to natural law, or 2) matter has always existed and acts in patterns according to natural law which are controlled by god?

Really, if you look at things from your point of view, god is not needed...the natural law, which you alread agreed has existed forever, plainly describes how the universe can function without god. To say that god is in control of natural law is a pointless add-on for the sole purpose of keeping your faith alive...it's also not backed up by any sort of proof. We may as well assume that the universe is controlled invisible pink unicorns.

 

[Runt]

Also, the word "random" constitutes a lack of perceiving order. It is not that order is absolutely non-existent. In all reality, there is no such thing as randomness, chance, chaos, etc. These are all imperfect, relative perceptions.

You may not perceive the order-er of natural phenomena, but order is still the absolute quality. If your reasoning ultimately leads you to a lack of order, then your perception is flawed.

As Ceridwen suggested, I put “random” into quotations because I wanted to suggest that there is no conscious control behind the workings of the universe WITHOUT suggesting that the universe itself is truly unpredictable and unordered.

you misunderstand. God is eternal and the laws by which God abides are eternal, yet they are tied to God, they are subject to Him and He has ultimate power over them, they have always existed, and they have always been under the controlling influence of God, who directs their order and governs their existence according to His perfect knowledge,.

This is simply conjecture. If matter and the laws governing its behavior are a closed system that exist and have always existed independently of God's act of creation, then they have worked and will continue to work without any nudging from God, for that is the whole point of the natural laws--they govern matter and its behavior.

 

[dan]

The natural world, however, can very easily be the result of a bunch of “random” occurrences governed completely by the natural laws--which God did not create and which do not require God’s interference to work.

Easily? The chances of this happening are a little less than 1/10 to the 250th power. That's low. The odds of you shuffling a deck of cards once and having them fall into perfect order are only 8/10 to the 63rd power. Make whatever assumption you want, but know that it is the most irrational of irrational claims.

 

[Pah]

The natural world, however, can very easily be the result of a bunch of “random” occurrences governed completely by the natural laws--which God did not create and which do not require God’s interference to work.

Easily? The chances of this happening are a little less than 1/10 to the 250th power. That's low. The odds of you shuffling a deck of cards once and having them fall into perfect order are only 8/10 to the 63rd power. Make whatever assumption you want, but know that it is the most irrational of irrational claims.

Ah Dan, that's the beauty of having billions and billions of years in which to do it

With cards, you can remove those that fall into order and hold them - a complete re-shuffle is not required. - much like the cumulative effect of "fitness".

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

"If you showed a helicopter to Isaac Newton he would marvel at how you defied the law of gravity; but we know that the helicopter only takes advantage of other laws that are in effect. God has access to laws that we will never be aware of as human beings. He lives higher laws than us, but He never breaks the laws that are set in motion."- Corban

Could a higher law be that matter and energy can be created? Just a thought.

 

[dan]

Ah Dan, that's the beauty of having billions and billions of years in which to do it

Ah, ignorance is bliss. The amount of energy that would be needed to create one single protein (with the odds I used) is millions of times greater than the energy that exists in the entire universe. For earth alone to create life would take 10 to the 243rd power years. That's more than "billions and billions." You can twist it any way you want, but there have never been odds that have been lower than those that you subscribe to. They are so astronomically low that it is preposterous to even consider them.

 

[Pah]

Ah Dan, that's the beauty of having billions and billions of years in which to do it

Ah, ignorance is bliss. The amount of energy that would be needed to create one single protein (with the odds I used) is millions of times greater than the energy that exists in the entire universe. For earth alone to create life would take 10 to the 243rd power years. That's more than "billions and billions." You can twist it any way you want, but there have never been odds that have been lower than those that you subscribe to. They are so astronomically low that it is preposterous to even consider them.

Could you supply some references for that, Dan?

 

[dan]

Sure. One outstanding work is called Creation: The Evidence From Science, by Harold G. Coffin. He was professor of Paleontology and Research at the Geoscience Research Institute at Andrews University in Michigan. Homer Jacobson reports similar ideas in an article from American Scientist called "Information, Reproduction and the Origin of Life." Charles Eugene Guye, a Swiss mathematician came up with the calculations, and Frank Allen, in The Evidence of God in an Expanding Universe, also shares some interesting ideas.

 

[Pah]

Sure. One outstanding work is called Creation: The Evidence From Science, by Harold G. Coffin. He was professor of Paleontology and Research at the Geoscience Research Institute at Andrews University in Michigan. Homer Jacobson reports similar ideas in an article from American Scientist called "Information, Reproduction and the Origin of Life." Charles Eugene Guye, a Swiss mathematician came up with the calculations, and Frank Allen, in The Evidence of God in an Expanding Universe, also shares some interesting ideas.

Any of those online?

 

[dan]

Sorry, no.

 

[Ceridwen018]

dan,

The amount of energy that would be needed to create one single protein (with the odds I used) is millions of times greater than the energy that exists in the entire universe.

How can we know how much energy is in the universe when we don't even know how big the universe is?

How do we know that energy does not exist outside of the universe?

That's more than "billions and billions." You can twist it any way you want, but there have never been odds that have been lower than those that you subscribe to. They are so astronomically low that it is preposterous to even consider them.

Alright then, infinity years.

Those odds are looking a bit better, don't you think?