God's power

[Corban]

"You seem to be confused by the concept of instantaneous truth, so let's think of it another way. Suppose I ask you whether or not you liked ice cream at 9:32 A.M. on Jun 2, 2004. This is an eternal truth. No matter how much you like or dislike ice cream now, your affinity for ice cream at 9:32 A.M. on Jun 2, 2004 will remain constant forever. And if God were to tell you that you didn't like ice cream at that time when, in fact, you did... then under your philosophy, he'd be lying."

But i didn't ask if i was sitting at 9:32, i asked if i was sitting, i was making the distinction between types of truths, some are always true and will never change, me saying "I am sitting" can change


"The bible also says that God can do anything. If the bible says that God cannot lie AND that God can do anything, then the bible is clearly contradicting itself."

That doesn't mean that the Bible is contradicting itself it means you don't understand the Bible, and your interpretation of it is therefore incorrect. The Bible does say "with God anything is possible" and it also says that God cannot lie. "With God all things are possible" that means God has all powers and can do anything that is real. let me explain. Can God make light and darkness exist at the same time in the same place? No, does this mean He can't really do anything? no. because that is nothing, it doesn't exist in the realm of real possibilities, it is an inconsistency that does not exist. God has all power that exists, and can do anything within that power. The power to make light and darkness exist together is not a real power and does not and can not exist therefore it is not included in all powers because it is not a power.

"The physical laws are for the governing of the universe after creation. They did not exist before creation. Again, the physical laws are for our protection not to limit God. Think about matter are energy getting created at a continual rate. Before you now it we would all be stuck in a giant block matter (there would be no space). The physical laws prevent this from happening and were put in place after creation. Therefore they cannot give us a theory on what existed before or during creation.

True, the current known physical laws don't tell us exactly what happened at the moment of creation, but they do give us a pretty good idea. Your "giant block matter" sounds a lot like the Big Bang theory.

How did we come into existence, and if God did not create the physical laws of this world then He isn't God; He is just a higher form of life and we are a test tube experiment.

"

This was not my quote please don't include it with my quotes lest people think i said it, and i would never say anything like that. I believe God has always existed, I believe that matter and energy have also always existed.

"Not if you are stuying the Gods of Greek and Roman mythology.

How would you know that I am wrong? If God is did not create the laws on the universe then who did?...If the universe expanded infinitely for several billion years from a point in the universe, then where did all that expansion energy and matter come from anyway?"

"This is actually a very good question, let's take it further. Who created God? Who created whoever created God? Who created whoever created whoever created God? The recursive logic can be stopped by saying something to the effect of "God was always there, nobody had to create him," but then we could just as easily say "The universe was always there, nobody needed to create it.""[/quote]0

Again, God has always existed, and so have the materials that make up this universe, they did not need to be created, but the universe did need to be created in the sense that it needed to be organized. The materials that i just used to make my dinner exister before i created dinner, but the lasagna did not exist until i organized the material and created the lasagna. God provides the order and direction to the universe

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

"You're trying to use the our physical laws to prove that they themselves could not have existed before the creation of the world. Reasoning does not get more contradictory. Matter and energy are eternal, as are God and our spirits. It cannot be created or destroyed. If you want to get linguistic about it, the Hebrew word translated "create" in our Bibles refers to a shaping or fashioning of something that already exists."- dan

I am not using natural laws to unprove natural laws. I am saying that natural laws were created by God at the beginning of the universe to govern the universe that He created. You use natural laws to back up your arguments that matter, energy, and God are all co-eternal. This is not possible in Christian religion, and if you believe otherwise then perhaps the Holy Spirit hasn't taken a hold of you like you think it has. Natural laws did not make God. God made the natural laws.

 

[dan]

am saying that natural laws were created by God at the beginning of the universe to govern the universe that He created.

And just how did you arrive at this conclusion?

 

[Ceridwen018]

dan,

For god to have created natural law to govern the universe he created is a logical idea. I don't see what the issue is with it.

Plus, if you're so chummy with the holy spirit, why don't you set us all straight right now?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Wow, I am very impressed by this discussion. You have all made very good points! I especially think the following were very well made:

kc8tbe

Who created God? Who created whoever created God? Who created whoever created whoever created God? The recursive logic can be stopped by saying something to the effect of "God was always there, nobody had to create him," but then we could just as easily say "The universe was always there, nobody needed to create it."

LCMS

if God did not create the physical laws of this world then He isn't God; He is just a higher form of life and we are a test tube experiment.

Corban

the Bible say's He can not lie In Titus 1:2- "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" and in Hebrews 6:18, that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie"

Corban, based on what you have said, God cannot be all powerful. Lying is a power, one which God does not have the capacity to exercise. The only way God can be "all powerful" is if the definition of all powerful is "the ability to do that which one has the ability to do". This definition, however, is utterly meaningless.

 

[kc8tbe]

But i didn't ask if i was sitting at 9:32, i asked if i was sitting, i was making the distinction between types of truths, some are always true and will never change, me saying "I am sitting" can change.

-Corban
Any of these "changing" truths are simultaneously "unchanging" truth. If I ask you "Are you sitting?" and you are, then you are sitting. Sure, you could then get up, but that wouldn't be changing the truth that you were sitting. By definition, all truths are unchanging. Perhaps you refer to freewill?

"The bible also says that God can do anything. If the bible says that God cannot lie AND that God can do anything, then the bible is clearly contradicting itself."

That doesn't mean that the Bible is contradicting itself it means you don't understand the Bible, and your interpretation of it is therefore incorrect. The Bible does say "with God anything is possible" and it also says that God cannot lie.

-Corban
No... the bible definitely says that God is all powerful.
Ephesians 3:20-"Now unto him [Christ] that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us."
Philippians 3:20-21-"...the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
Colossians 2:10-"Ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power."
Hebrews 1:3-"[Jesus Christ is] upholding all things by the word of his power."
Revelation 1:8-"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 2:26-27-"He who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the potter's vessels shall be broken to pieces'-as I also have received from My Father" (NKJV).

Speaking of interpretations, Corban and LCMS Sprecher seem to have rather different interpretations of what God is like.

Again, God has always existed, and so have the materials that make up this universe, they did not need to be created, but the universe did need to be created in the sense that it needed to be organized. The materials that i just used to make my dinner exister before i created dinner, but the lasagna did not exist until i organized the material and created the lasagna. God provides the order and direction to the universe

-Corban

I am not using natural laws to unprove natural laws. I am saying that natural laws were created by God at the beginning of the universe to govern the universe that He created. You use natural laws to back up your arguments that matter, energy, and God are all co-eternal. This is not possible in Christian religion, and if you believe otherwise then perhaps the Holy Spirit hasn't taken a hold of you like you think it has. Natural laws did not make God. God made the natural laws.

-LCMS Sprecher

 

[dan]

Plus, if you're so chummy with the holy spirit, why don't you set us all straight right now?

OK, God is all-powerful.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

dan-- just to clarify, are you saying God has the ability to lie (though He would never choose to use this ability)?

 

[dan]

Can a man that is honest steal?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Yes he can but he chooses not to. So what about God?

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

He has promised us he would not lie to us, so he will not. God is honest and holy. Lying is a sin. God cannot and would not sin. God is all powerful and so he can lie, but he does not sin, so he does not lie.

 

[Corban]

He has promised us he would not lie to us, so he will not. God is honest and holy. Lying is a sin. God cannot and would not sin. God is all powerful and so he can lie, but he does not sin, so he does not lie.

Explain your statements to me. First you say God cannot sin, then you say God is all powerful. If he is all powerful then why can't he sin. He has promised us he would not lie, does that mean He lost the power to lie and is therefore not all powerful. If you answer that question that you already affirmed your belief in, you will understand what i have been saying this whole time about God following natural laws.

 

[Ceridwen018]

dan,

"OK, God is all-powerful."

Ah, how relevant! My question to you, is how do you know that god is all-powerful? I'm not trying to dig at you here, I'm genuinely curious as to how you've reached such a conclusion.

 

[painted wolf]

ok, now when god told Abraham to kill his son, knowing that he would change his mind wasn't that lying?

Genesis 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

about god and lies...

1 Kg.22:23
"Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
2 Chr.18:22
"Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets."
Jer.20:7
"O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived."
Ezek.14:9
"And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet."
2 Th.2:11
"For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

wa:do

 

[Ceridwen018]

Well, well, well, painted wolf! What have we here! How delightfully interesting...

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

Does anyone read entire books or sections of the Bible here together, or does everyone just zero in on single verses out of context and without exegesis. Sigh....

As to Corban- I do not believe sinning to be a power. It is a detriment, therefore, by not sinning, God is not denying Himself a power. Sin is not even possible for God because He perfect. You apply a detriment that comes from our imperfection to a perfect God. It doesn't work.

 

[Corban]

Does anyone read entire books or sections of the Bible here together, or does everyone just zero in on single verses out of context and without exegesis. Sigh....

As to Corban- I do not believe sinning to be a power. It is a detriment, therefore, by not sinning, God is not denying Himself a power. Sin is not even possible for God because He perfect. You apply a detriment that comes from our imperfection to a perfect God. It doesn't work.

Well said, and that is exactly the point i have been making all along when i have said God follos natural laws. i believe God is all powerful, i believe God does not and cannot sin. I also believe god does not and cannot create matter and that God follows natural laws, because just as you said of the power to sin, these are not powers, and therefore not included in "all powers" when speaking of God as being "all powerful"

 

[Ceridwen018]

If god can't create matter, then how can you attribute creation to him?

 

[Runt]

It has been brought to my attention that God does have to follow natural laws, so Let me ask this question, and i would love to have an answer from anyone that says God does not follow natural laws

So basically the question is this: Is the God all-powerful or simply very powerful?

An all-powerful God can do anything, even that which appears impossible to us because it stands outside of human logic. For such a God 1 plus 1 could equal anything--even if that "anything" is not a number or a concept that we humans even possess.

However, the God of Christian theology cannot possibly be all-powerful. A God who is all powerful can do anything, and yet Christians generally hold that he CANNOT vanquish evil without also destroying free will (see the "Trinity of Religious Contradiction" forum if you want to argue about this concept).

A perfect God also MUST have perfect knowledge not only of what we are doing this very moment, but what we are going to do in the future. He has to; if he cannot see into our future DESPITE having given us free will, then he is NOT all-powerful; he is limited, there is something he cannot do. Thus, an all-powerful God knows everything that each and every human is going to do far before they have done it, far before they are ever born. Thus, before we are ever even born, God knows whether or not we are going to Hell. We have the free will to choose not to do evil, yes, but God also knows if we will NOT choose to be absolved of sin and will end up going to Hell. So why are such people ever born? Why doesn't he just send their spirits to Hell before they are ever born, and before they can ever bring evil and suffering to the world? Or, if he is the merciful God Christians claim him to be, why doesn't he just "end" their eternal soul? Why doesn't he take immortality away from them before they are ever born, terminate them, and save them the pain of the everlasting torture he knows is but an eyeblink away?

If an all powerful God exists, then it therefore follows that either Hell does NOT exist, or it DOES exist and the wicked are sent there before they are ever born, indicating that all people born are going to Heaven because God only allowed the "saved" to be born. I prefer the first explaination, since there is a huge logical gap in the second (somehow Hitler was born, and under the second hypothesis should never have been...and it also suggests that all non-Christians born will go to Heaven, which goes against Christian theology).

However, the "very powerful but not ALL-powerful" concept is much more sound, at least when looking at Christian theology. A very powerful God, is bound by natural laws, but has the ability to work within them to do basically whatever he wants. For such a God 1 plus 1 HAS to equal 2 unless he can conceive of a way to make one plus one equal something else WITHIN THE NATURAL LAWS.

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

"I also believe god does not and cannot create matter and that God follows natural laws, because just as you said of the power to sin, these are not powers, and therefore not included in "all powers" when speaking of God as being "all powerful""- Corban

I would say though that creating matter and energy are powers. While sin is a detriment of imperfection, creating matter and energy are not detriments. Again, I would like to know that if God did not create the natural laws then who did (or what did)? See if God did not create the natural laws then He is bound by the same thing that binds us as humans. In the end, He becomes just a higher being with some tricks up his sleeve. God gave life to the dead (i.e. Lazarus). That is not possible, however He still did it. I would like to know though if raising people from the dead is actually possible with our natural laws of today. If not, then God definately broke them there. God ultimately has power over all of nature and can command it to do whatever He wants it to do.