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God's plan and the Green New Deal

Discussion in 'Human Affairs, Political Movements and Charities' started by robocop (actually), Feb 7, 2019.

  1. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I wrote in the Paris Climate Accord post the following to convince people of the science (skip this post if you are already convinced):

    Of course now the models fit perfectly.

    So we know it is a problem. The question is, what do we do about it?

    As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Latter-day Saints do not have an official view on Climate Change. But we believe God has had a plan for all past people on Earth and has a plan for all future ones. That doesn't mean the population on Earth hasn't been decimated before. The Black plague, I believe, cut the Earth's population by 33%.

    So it could definitely happen, but we needn't worry that God won't be able to accomplish his plan.

    I think we should try to do as much as we reasonably can if we cannot do enough. Emerging technologies or new resources might make up the rest, but it would suck if they didn't, so the more we do the better our chances. Some people think we are not ready for change, but perhaps we have to be ready now. It is a moonshot, but it could be very positive.
     
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  2. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Hello. Our only hope is the radical restructuring of our economic system (including agriculture, energy - everything). It means moving away from a mass consuption model. In other words, capitalism must die. Short of that there is very little hope IMHO. And since such change has almost no hope of happening because of ignorance and greed, we are doomed. Have a pleasant day :)

    Peace
     
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  3. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Well like I said it will be according to God's plan.

    But can't we do what we can and then if emerging technologies or discovered resources sprout up the more we do the better our chances?
     
  4. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Hello. The latest analysis suggests we are at the point now where only drastic change will do, not just tinkering around the edges. See this recent summary:

    Climate Change in a Nutshell: The Gathering Storm - Climate Science, Awareness and Solutions

    Peace
     
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  5. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    The White House claims that carbon emissions in the US are at a 25-year low.

    Energy & Environment | The White House

    Is this sufficient? Given that we might have emerging technology or discovered resources, what would you say our chances are with this kind of effort?

    Thank you for taking your time.
     
    #5 robocop (actually), Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  6. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    We are observing climate change. However, this is a normal part of the earth's short and long term cycles. This is not new to the earth, as implied by the sales pitch.

    Science have been maintaining accurate records of weather and climate for about 125 years. So when they say, "this was the hottest summer on record", that means that was hottest summer since we have been keeping records; 125 years. This is very misleading, since the earth is 5 billion years old. "On record", does not cover the entire earth history, but only the past 125 years.

    For example, say you decided to start keeping records of dogs walking past your house. You sit on the front porch, and record all the dogs that pass each day. On day 17, we notice a large increase in dogs. We tell everyone this is the most dogs ever, on record. This is a very bold and provocative claim.

    If the layman is not aware, that you have only been keeping records for 17 days, the term "most on record", could be mistaken to mean the most since the city was first built 500 years ago, or since caveman domesticated dogs. The most on record, would be a true claim, but one has to ask, how old is the record?

    Once we know the record is only 125 years old, we next need to look at long term trends in climate to see if 125-200 year cycles of warming are unique on the earth. It turns out this is not unusual. The last Ice Age had long term warming trend that has lasted about 2.5 million years. At the beginning of the Ice Age, glaciers covered about 35% of the earth. It was down to about 10% when the record was started by science. In spite of that much melting; 25% of the earth surface melted, the earth was still standing when the record began. This did not destroy the earth but made it better. In North America this led to the Great Lakes and all types of smaller fresh water lakes and carved paths for many important rivers.

    The question becomes, say for the sake of argument the climate change that we are observing, is natural and is part of a longer cycle; very end of the Ice Age. All the remedies suggested may have no impact on the earth since the earth is huge and has its own momentum. Instead the proposed changes will lead to massive disruption of culture and starvation as nature runs its own course.

    We are supposed to give up fossil fuels, farming, air travel, etc., This only applies to the poor and middle class. The rich will exempt themselves s they always do. Ask the leaders of the movement, to set an example; give everything up, and see what happens. Only the poor peons will have to endure the hardships. Gore will be commandeering the stagnant farmland.

    In my opinion, climate change is a natural way to redistribute the wealth of the earth. Climate change will lead to new locations being the prime places to live. I live in the NE USA. I have also lived in the middle and SE USA. Climate change to me would be like moving south while living in the north. I would not mind a milder winter and long summer like in Tennessee. It would be impossible to hope for my climate ending with Florida weather in the north east. I live about 125 feet above sea level, so I would not mind if my summer ride to the beach was 10 minutes, instead of 40 minutes. In many places, the poor people will end up with beach front property and suddenly become wealthy.

    Climate change can lead to natural redistribution where the rich are not exempt. For example, the rich own the water front at the beach. The poor and middle class live further away and have to walk. Suddenly the rich have to move and the poor are beach front. Law, donors and politics will not change this.

    Warmer weather means more water vapor in the air which means more rain. While more CO2 means more plants will grow. The earth is preparing for a future of more people ,by setting the conditions for increasing plant production. My advice is maintain what we got and prepare for adaptation and redistribution.
     
  7. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Dude, none of the natural-forces only models explain the last 30 years and when you include human activity they match it. And now that we have a perfect model how can you doubt? Random? Did you read my post on how they model them?

    Also, preliminary polling shows that although most people aren't aware of the Green New Deal, 80% of Americans support or strongly support it. That includes a majority of Republicans. We will know soon how popular the deal is. That was from Mother Jones although I could only find the link on my cell phone and not on my computer.
     
    #7 robocop (actually), Feb 10, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  8. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Greed and fear we can't eliminate for 200 years, but we have an unlimited potential to increase love and we are always getting more educated.
     
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  9. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    If you look at nature, nature practices a type of free market capitalism. There is competition for resources with the strongest, most clever, and healthiest animals getting the lion's share. Animals also own land in the sense they will develop, gather, hunt and defend within guarded territories. Capitalism is an extrapolation of nature.

    Nature is not socialism, run by big government, unless you make a parallel to theology, where God runs nature, based on his master plan. However in practice, that master plan of nature is closer to capitalism.

    On the other hand, if you could argue a different Divine master plan, this runs into separation of church and state issues, since this would be a knockoff of religion. The New Green Deal is a religion. It may work in the paradise of the mind, but it is not designed to work in physical or natural reality.

    Say we did the New Green Deal to nature, which amounts to redistribution of resources and the elimination of natural selection in favor of artificial selection, controlled by government. More species would get sick and go extinct then ever before, since nature will not react well to artificial and unnatural changes, imposed by lawyers, who are not experts in animal needs.
     
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