God's opposition to homosexuality. Why?

[tumbleweed41]

It's politics and the relationship and shared history with a predominately Christian Europe in the period after WWII.

The Romani retain their culture without those advantages.

Perhaps they are truly the chosen people.


But back to the OP, is the reason you attempt to rationalize your beliefs with an argument from incredibility just an attempt to justify a 2500+ year old prohibition against homosexuality?

I was trying to back up my belief on this issue by trying to prove (though doesn't seem to be easy) that the Torah, which predicted the immortality of the Jewish people, is the same Torah that prohibits homosexuality, and since the Jewish people's existence cannot be explained by natural means, it must be that that "Being" Who predicted the Jewish people's immortality was a Deity and and that the Torah was written by Him, and that homosexuality has and still is prohibited by Him.

So that's a yes?

 

[Yanni]

It's politics and the relationship and shared history with a predominately Christian Europe in the period after WWII.

The Romani retain their culture without those advantages.

Perhaps they are truly the chosen people.


But back to the OP, is the reason you attempt to rationalize your beliefs with an argument from incredibility just an attempt to justify a 2500+ year old prohibition against homosexuality?

So will you still say it's only politics when I tell you that until the Jewish people returned to the Land of Israel, the Land was never able to be cultivated by any other nation, and therefore, no other nation has ever formally established the Land of Israel as their homeland? This is an example of the supernatural bond between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel. As put by Aish.com's "7 Wonder of Jewish History:'
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/h/48965856.html

WONDER #6: THE INTERDEPENDENCE BETWEEN THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND THE LAND OF ISRAEL
The land of Israel was known to be fertile for millennia. When you were back in sixth grade, learning about the Middle East, do you remember what that region of the world was called?
It was called, "The Fertile Crescent." The Middle East was strategically important. It controlled the trade routes from Europe, Asia, and Africa. All of ancient civilization wanted to possess it and keep it flourishing.
But we see a very strange thing. As long as the Jews are living in the land, the land remains fertile. As soon as the Jews leave, the land becomes a desert and no other nation is able to cultivate it.
There is a fascinating quote from Mark Twain, who visited Israel in 1867.
"We traversed some miles of the desolate country, whose soil is rich enough but is given wholly to weeds, as silent, mournful expanse. A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tavor safely. [Tavor is in the north, in the Galilee, the most fertile part of the land.] We never saw a human being on the whole route. We pressed on towards the goal..., renowned Jerusalem. The further we went, the hotter the sun got, the more rocky and bare, repulsive and dreary the landscape became. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country. No landscape exists that is more tiresome to the eye than that which bound the approaches to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is mournful, dreary and lifeless. I would not desire to live there." (Mark Twain, Innocents Abroad, Vol. II, Harper and Brothers, 1922, NY)
Has anyone been to Israel recently? Does this sound accurate to you? Once again, a startling and strange phenomenon, completely defying the laws of nature: When the Jews are not in the land, the land becomes a desolate wilderness.
Has this ever happened anywhere else in the world? The white men came to this country and took it over from the American Indians. It had amber waves of grain. Did the land suddenly become a desert? Of course not! It doesn't make a difference who's living in the land. If a land is fertile, it's fertile; if it's a desert, it's a desert.
Not so with the land of Israel. Only there does the land become uninhabitable when the Jews are exiled.

Just as God promised that we would be His eternal nation, so, too, did He promise us the "Promised Land." And although we have been exiled from the Land due to our sins, God has also promised us, through His prophets, that He would return us to the Land of Israel. Can you explain this strange phenomenon through science?

 

[Yanni]

And if that doesn't convince you, there are a number of accounts to the barren nature of the Land of Israel without the Jews.
The 7 Wonders of Jewish History
6) The Interdependency of the Jewish People and the Land of Israel

(TOP)
It has been prophesied in the Torah that the land of Israel was rich and fertile while the Jews were living there:

“I have come down to rescue them from Egypt’s power. I will bring them out of that land, to a good, spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey…”
(Exodus 3:8)
​

Even up until the time of Josephus (i.e. approximately 1300 years later), it was still very prosperous and fertile.

For the whole area is excellent for crops or pasturage and rich in trees of every kind, so that by its fertility it invites even those least inclined to work on the land. In fact, every inch of it has been cultivated by the inhabitants and not a parcel goes to waste. It is thickly covered with towns, and thanks to the natural abundance of the soil, the many villages are so densely populated that the smallest of them has more than fifteen thousand inhabitants.
(Josephus, The Jewish Wars; Book III 3:2 Penguin edition, p. 192)
​

And when they were exiled, it would become barren and desolate:

“So devastated will I leave the land that your enemies who live there will be astonished… Your land will remain desolate, and your cities in ruins.”
(Leviticus 26:32-33)
​

During the two thousand years of Israel’s exile from its Land, numerous empires have conquered the Land and countless wars were fought for its possession. And yet, astonishingly, no conqueror ever succeeded in permanently settling the Land or causing the deserts to blossom.
Mark Twain, who visited Israel in 1867, describes the Land of Israel:

“We traversed some miles of desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given wholly to weeds - A silent, mournful expanse… A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action . The further we went the hotter the sun got and the more rocky and bare, repulsive and dreary the landscape became.”
(“The Innocents Abroad” Vol. II)
​

Others make similar observations:

Outside the walls of Jerusalem however we saw no living being, heard no living voice. We encountered that desolation and that deadly silence which we would have expected to find at the ruined gates of Pompey… A total eternal dread spell envelopes the city, the highways and the villages… the burial grounds of an entire people.
Alfons de Lamartine, “Recollections of the East” Volume I London (1845) pg. 238 (Hebrew-French)
​

Until today no people has succeeded in establishing national dominion in the land of Israel… No national unity or spirit of nationalism has acquired any hold there. The mixed multitude of itinerant tribes that managed to settle there did so on lease, as temporary residents. It seems that they await the return of the permanent residents of the land.

Professor Sir John William Dosson in “Modern Science in Bible Lands” London (1888) Pp. 449-450
​

The Ramban comments on Leviticus 26:32

Similarly, that which He stated here, and your enemies that shall dwell therein shall be desolate in it, constitutes a good tiding, proclaiming that during all our exiles, our Land will not accept our enemies. This also is a great proof and assurance to us, for in the whole inhabited part of the world one cannot find such a good and large Land which was always lived in and yet is as ruined as it is [today], for since the time that we left it, it has not accepted any nation or people, they all try to settle it, but to no avail.
​

The “land of milk and honey” turning into a desert, is a phenomenon unique in the annals of history.

 

[waitasec]

So will you still say it's only politics when I tell you that until the Jewish people returned to the Land of Israel, the Land was never able to be cultivated by any other nation, and therefore, no other nation has ever formally established the Land of Israel as their homeland? This is an example of the supernatural bond between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel. As put by Aish.com's "7 Wonder of Jewish History:'
Seven Wonders of Jewish History

WONDER #6: THE INTERDEPENDENCE BETWEEN THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND THE LAND OF ISRAEL
The land of Israel was known to be fertile for millennia. When you were back in sixth grade, learning about the Middle East, do you remember what that region of the world was called?
It was called, "The Fertile Crescent." The Middle East was strategically important. It controlled the trade routes from Europe, Asia, and Africa. All of ancient civilization wanted to possess it and keep it flourishing.
But we see a very strange thing. As long as the Jews are living in the land, the land remains fertile. As soon as the Jews leave, the land becomes a desert and no other nation is able to cultivate it.
There is a fascinating quote from Mark Twain, who visited Israel in 1867.
"We traversed some miles of the desolate country, whose soil is rich enough but is given wholly to weeds, as silent, mournful expanse. A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tavor safely. [Tavor is in the north, in the Galilee, the most fertile part of the land.] We never saw a human being on the whole route. We pressed on towards the goal..., renowned Jerusalem. The further we went, the hotter the sun got, the more rocky and bare, repulsive and dreary the landscape became. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country. No landscape exists that is more tiresome to the eye than that which bound the approaches to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is mournful, dreary and lifeless. I would not desire to live there." (Mark Twain, Innocents Abroad, Vol. II, Harper and Brothers, 1922, NY)
Has anyone been to Israel recently? Does this sound accurate to you? Once again, a startling and strange phenomenon, completely defying the laws of nature: When the Jews are not in the land, the land becomes a desolate wilderness.
Has this ever happened anywhere else in the world? The white men came to this country and took it over from the American Indians. It had amber waves of grain. Did the land suddenly become a desert? Of course not! It doesn't make a difference who's living in the land. If a land is fertile, it's fertile; if it's a desert, it's a desert.
Not so with the land of Israel. Only there does the land become uninhabitable when the Jews are exiled.

Just as God promised that we would be His eternal nation, so, too, did He promise us the "Promised Land." And although we have been exiled from the Land due to our sins, God has also promised us, through His prophets, that He would return us to the Land of Israel. Can you explain this strange phenomenon through science?

i find it interesting that while saying

And although we have been exiled from the Land due to our sins

you don't see how that reflects a nation that rejected god's tenets...in other words this isn't a choosing nation...just like the rest.

 

[tumbleweed41]

So will you still say it's only politics when I tell you that until the Jewish people returned to the Land of Israel, the Land was never able to be cultivated by any other nation, and therefore, no other nation has ever formally established the Land of Israel as their homeland? This is an example of the supernatural bond between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel. As put by Aish.com's "7 Wonder of Jewish History:'

WONDER #6: THE INTERDEPENDENCE BETWEEN THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND THE LAND OF ISRAEL
The land of Israel was known to be fertile for millennia. When you were back in sixth grade, learning about the Middle East, do you remember what that region of the world was called?
It was called, "The Fertile Crescent." The Middle East was strategically important. It controlled the trade routes from Europe, Asia, and Africa. All of ancient civilization wanted to possess it and keep it flourishing.
But we see a very strange thing. As long as the Jews are living in the land, the land remains fertile. As soon as the Jews leave, the land becomes a desert and no other nation is able to cultivate it.
There is a fascinating quote from Mark Twain, who visited Israel in 1867.
"We traversed some miles of the desolate country, whose soil is rich enough but is given wholly to weeds, as silent, mournful expanse. A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tavor safely. [Tavor is in the north, in the Galilee, the most fertile part of the land.] We never saw a human being on the whole route. We pressed on towards the goal..., renowned Jerusalem. The further we went, the hotter the sun got, the more rocky and bare, repulsive and dreary the landscape became. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country. No landscape exists that is more tiresome to the eye than that which bound the approaches to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is mournful, dreary and lifeless. I would not desire to live there." (Mark Twain, Innocents Abroad, Vol. II, Harper and Brothers, 1922, NY)
Has anyone been to Israel recently? Does this sound accurate to you? Once again, a startling and strange phenomenon, completely defying the laws of nature: When the Jews are not in the land, the land becomes a desolate wilderness.
Has this ever happened anywhere else in the world? The white men came to this country and took it over from the American Indians. It had amber waves of grain. Did the land suddenly become a desert? Of course not! It doesn't make a difference who's living in the land. If a land is fertile, it's fertile; if it's a desert, it's a desert.
Not so with the land of Israel. Only there does the land become uninhabitable when the Jews are exiled.

Just as God promised that we would be His eternal nation, so, too, did He promise us the "Promised Land." And although we have been exiled from the Land due to our sins, God has also promised us, through His prophets, that He would return us to the Land of Israel. Can you explain this strange phenomenon through science?

Amazing what money and know-how can do.
(And you could use a little education in the agricultural history of the fertile area now known as Israel.)

 

[Yanni]

i find it interesting that while saying

you don't see how that reflects a nation that rejected god's tenets...in other words this isn't a choosing nation...just like the rest.

You see, the thing is, God gave us the Land on condition that we follow His ways. But, hey, we're only human and no one is perfect, and there are consequences for our actions. But there is always room for improvement and repentance. And, as I mentioned in a different post, God also promised us that we would return to the Land of Israel in time for the Final Redemption (which we believe is very near). Part of God's perfection is that He NEVER goes back on His promises. Just as He promised He would never again destroy the Earth with a Flood, He promised us the Land of Israel as an eternal covenant; and therefore, when we are not in the Land, NO ONE ELSE had or will ever have the ability to claim it as their own by cultivating it.
And if you want more on our uniqueness, here's something:

Leo Tolstoy, a believing Christian, also wonders about this. He writes (Jewish World, London, 1908:
"The Jew is the emblem of eternity. He whom neither slaughter, nor torture of thousands of years could destroy, he whom neither fire, nor sword, nor inquisition was able to wipe off the face of the earth; he who was the first to produce the oracle of God, he who has been for so long the guardian of prophecy and who transmitted it to the rest of the world. Such a nation cannot be destroyed. The Jew is as everlasting as eternity itself."

Hey, I got even more:
Paul Johnson, a non-Jewish historian, wrote a bestseller called A History of the Jews. At the end of the book, he gives us a thesis as to why the Jews have survived so long: "The Jews believed that they were a special people, with such unanimity and passion, over so long a span of time, that they became one." In other words, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Two problems immediately emerge. First of all, does anyone here think Jews can believe anything with unanimity? You've heard the expression, "Two Jews, three opinions"?
(As a matter of fact, we were once in Phoenix, Arizona, and a teacher said, "You know how it is - two Jews, three opinions...," when a gentleman raises his hand and, in all seriousness, says, "Rabbi, I heard it was three Jews, four opinions." The teacher looked at him and said, "Thank you, Sir. You've just proved my point!")
Second - does it make sense that only the Jews willed themselves into becoming an eternal nation?! And all the other nations thought, "Nah, that's okay. We've gone on long enough. Suppose it's about time to get conquered and become extinct..."
Finally, even if the Jews did believe they were an eternal people, does simply believing something make it so?
If I just keep believing I'm a doctor, will I eventually become one?
Obviously things don't work that way. Nations don't will themselves into destruction. Neither do they will themselves into becoming an eternal nation.

 

[waitasec]

You see, the thing is, God gave us the Land on condition that we follow His ways.

you see life gave us this planet to live on...
this barbaric position of division is what perpetuates hate...

go figure.

knowing how small this planet is, in relation to the cosmos,
do you really think your god is concerned about a tiny piece of real estate?
please.....

 

[McBell]

Really now!? Then maybe you should buy a book on Jewish history and do your homework on the motives of all those persecutors. What do you think the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" was REALLY all about? The Nazis were more powerful than any of our previous oppressors, and yet, they did NOT succeed at destroying us. How about the fact that we've continued to exist as a nation with the same values in every corner of the world, without having assimilated with the rest of the cultures of the world, huh? It's unique in history. There is no natural explanation for it. You can rationalize from today to tomorrow. The laws of history have been transgressed.

Thank you for furthering my point.

 

[McBell]

I've got an answer for everything, you know.

I would be more surprised if you didn't.

 

[Yanni]

Well, I've given it my best shot. The great thing about debate is that we can agree to disagree. We can argue for the next 5 months, and with such opposing views, I don't think we'll ever come to a conclusion. What I meant when I said "I have an answer for everything" was not meant as an arrogant comment. What I meant is that I am such a strong believer in my faith because anytime I had a question regarding God or anything, my parents and teachers always had answers, and sometimes those answers were "I don't know."
Anyway, if anyone wants to look up anything about Judaism and its views on some of these issues, I invite you to visit a great site, Judaism - The Jewish Website. There are articles there on many issues. Check it out.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

What I meant is that I am such a strong believer in my faith because anytime I had a question regarding God or anything, my parents and teachers always had answers...

When I became a man, I put aside the answers of my parents and teachers and went out into the world to investigate for myself.

I figured, "What are the odds that I happen to have been born into the one tiny subculture which owned the actual Truth?"

Nah, that would have been deluding myself, and I preferred not to risk that.

 

[Acim]

Well, I left my happy home
to see what I could find out.
I left my folk and friends
with the aim to clear my mind out.

Well I hit the rowdy road
and many kinds I met there,
many stories told me
of the way to get there, ooh.

So on and on I go,
the seconds tick the time out,
there's so much left to know,
and I'm on the road to findout, ooh.

by Yusaf Islam (PBUH)

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Catchy tune. Now I'll be whistling it as I walk.

 

[Yanni]

When I became a man, I put aside the answers of my parents and teachers and went out into the world to investigate for myself.

I figured, "What are the odds that I happen to have been born into the one tiny subculture which owned the actual Truth?"

Nah, that would have been deluding myself, and I preferred not to risk that.

Well, I didn't have to investigate for myself, because I KNOW and am 100% certain that the faith that I was born into is the Truth, and just as my stubborn ancestors weren't willing to give it up (even if their lives were threatened), I, too, would be willing to sacrifice everything for the Sanctification of God's Holy Name.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Well, I didn't have to investigate for myself, because I KNOW and am 100% certain that the faith that I was born into is the Truth, and just as my stubborn ancestors weren't willing to give it up (even if their lives were threatened), I, too, would be willing to sacrifice everything for the Sanctification of God's Holy Name.

And this, my friends, is a perfect example of dogma.

 

[Yanni]

And this, my friends, is a perfect example of dogma.

I am not ashamed to firmly stand for what I believe is true. Call it what you want. But it'll be the atheists in this world who weren't worried one iota that there "might" be a God Who created and sustains the universe and "might" end up facing Him and His Heavenly Court after they die. If I die and find out there is no God, so what did I lose out in life? It didn't gain me any lasting gain. It was a fleeting world that I didn't enjoy to the fullest the world has to offer. So what? BUT, if God DOES exist, then who will have the last laugh? If I were the atheists of the world, I would weigh the losses more than the gains.

 

[darkendless]

I am not ashamed to firmly stand for what I believe is true. Call it what you want. But it'll be the atheists in this world who weren't worried one iota that there "might" be a God Who created and sustains the universe and "might" end up facing Him and His Heavenly Court after they die. If I die and find out there is no God, so what did I lose out in life? It didn't gain me any lasting gain. It was a fleeting world that I didn't enjoy to the fullest the world has to offer. So what? BUT, if God DOES exist, then who will have the last laugh? If I were the atheists of the world, I would weigh the losses more than the gains.

If there is I can't wait to meet him and tell him exactly what I think of him.

I would wager that religion is a means of controlling those who require control to alleviate their fear of death......... and thats about it.

Firmly standing for what you believe? What if you believe something that is factually wrong and can be demonstrated? Does reason override superstition or what?

 

[Yanni]

If there is I can't wait to meet him and tell him exactly what I think of him.

I would wager that religion is a means of controlling those who require control to alleviate their fear of death......... and thats about it.

Firmly standing for what you believe? What if you believe something that is factually wrong and can be demonstrated? Does reason override superstition or what?

So can you prove to me that God's existence is "factually" incorrect? Prove to me that God doesn't exist. I haven't heard a single atheist give a half-good reason/proof that God doesn't exist. And I don't think for a second that you would have the nerve/guts to tell God exactly what you think of Him when you stand opposite the most powerful Force in the universe Who can do with you whatever He pleases. And then when you realize all the good that HE provided for you during your lifetime, you'll probably be thanking Him rather than rebuking Him. You've got to be a lunatic to "tell Him like it is" at that moment. Let's wait and see.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I am not ashamed to firmly stand for what I believe is true. Call it what you want. But it'll be the atheists in this world who weren't worried one iota that there "might" be a God Who created and sustains the universe and "might" end up facing Him and His Heavenly Court after they die. If I die and find out there is no God, so what did I lose out in life? It didn't gain me any lasting gain. It was a fleeting world that I didn't enjoy to the fullest the world has to offer. So what? BUT, if God DOES exist, then who will have the last laugh? If I were the atheists of the world, I would weigh the losses more than the gains.

Ah, the classic Pascals Wager.
Unfortunately this leaves you open to, what if you picked the wrong God?

 

[waitasec]

Well, I didn't have to investigate for myself, because I KNOW and am 100% certain that the faith that I was born into is the Truth,