God's language in Genesis?

[dybmh]

Victor Matthews, Don Benjamin, Richard Lowery, Juris Zarins...

Can you provide any quotes from these that say: "the myth is much older than Hebrew culture. It comes to the Hebrews from Sumerian myth."

See below:

Except that the myth is much older than Hebrew culture. It comes to the Hebrews from Sumerian myth.

The last time I looked at this, no one had been able to show causation. Only similarities.

 

[sojourner]

The last time I looked at this, no one had been able to show causation. Only similarities

The “causation” is in the facts that Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian and Canaanite cultures are earlier than the Judaic, and that the archaeological record shows that Judaic culture come from these earlier cultures. “Similarity” argues that the Judaic grew simultaneously alongside the others, when we know that it didn’t. “Causation” argues that the earlier cultures influenced later cultures that grew out of them, and that certainly appears to be the case, based on textual and anthropological analysis.

 

[dybmh]

The “causation” is in the facts that Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian and Canaanite cultures are earlier than the Judaic

Not necessarily... I think, on careful review of the evidence, what you'll find is that this conclusion is ignoring oral transmission of Judaic culture.

Also, even if I accept that one culture is earlier, that doesn't mean one culture came from the other. All it means is that one is older... Essentially, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the claim above is cultural appropriation? Plagiarism? I think that is very difficult to prove.

the archaeological record shows that Judaic culture come from these earlier cultures.

I'm not an expert; but, when other RF'ers have made similar statements, they weren't able to to present convincing evidence reflecting this. The strongest language I have heard/read from on this subject is that the archeological evidence suggests that some of the elements of the stories in the Tanach are artifacts from the other surrounding cultures. My objection to your original claim is of degree and scope. I find it more accurate to reflect a less hyperbolic, all inclusive conclusion, as I stated.

“Similarity” argues that the Judaic grew simultaneously alongside the others, when we know that it didn’t

Most respectfully, more evidence would be more convincing.

“Causation” argues that the earlier cultures influenced later cultures that grew out of them, and that certainly appears to be the case, based on textual and anthropological analysis.

OK. Here ^^ I appreciate the qualifier. It appears to... That's much more accurate than the previous statements you made about it. I think if you look at the textual and anthropological evidence, it's focused on the later books in Tanach where Judaism as a religion as a culture , please correct me if I'm wrong, had already been substantially developed?

 

[MNoBody]

shared as an additional set of data points
certainly useful in that it raises many genuine questions

better video

 

[Etritonakin]

It is technically possible to communicate on a sub-langauge level -such as machine code vs turning that into ascii -then another turning ascii back to machine code -similar to how you can think of things/concepts without words in your mind.

What I find even more interesting than the thought turned into words which could be understood by another.......
(specific language is not as important as accurate transfer of information.... Acts 2:5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?)....

.....is thought turned to action by fiat/direct interface.

Humans manipulate their environment as persons who essentially reside upon things at greater-than-atomic level -using their physical bodies to interface.
However, we can use such to make tools which allow us to interface on other levels -interfacing indirectly -though our position and composition still keep us subject/vulnerable to certain things.

Similar is true of how God and spirits are said to be able to alter their outward form/appearance -and do not necessarily need such. Humans are mostly subject to their physical nature -not able to change much about it on a basic level -and are also essentially bound to the Earth for survival.
But.... the possibility exists for even a physical body to be designed and configured in such a way which would allow physical -or other -changes at will.
Some creatures already have such abilities to a lesser degree/based on circumstance -such as active camouflage, etc. -and some change form drastically -such as caterpillars (though not by will).
I, personally, would love to be able to self-edit my genes so as not to need to shave or be so sasquatch-esque. That one wild hair that grows from the top of my ear would be job 1.

Below are two verses which describe how our "vile" bodies will be replaced by "glorious" bodies with extreme abilities/capabilities...
John 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[sojourner]

Not necessarily... I think, on careful review of the evidence, what you'll find is that this conclusion is ignoring oral transmission of Judaic culture

Absolutely not. Stories were shared across cultures. Since Judah is at a geopolitical crossroads, and historically the whipping boy of Babylonian and Egyptian empires, it stands to reason that these earlier stories would be spread, appropriated and adapted.

I'm not an expert; but, when other RF'ers have made similar statements, they weren't able to to present convincing evidence reflecting this. The strongest language I have heard/read from on this subject is that the archeological evidence suggests that some of the elements of the stories in the Tanach are artifacts from the other surrounding cultures. My objection to your original claim is of degree and scope. I find it more accurate to reflect a less hyperbolic, all inclusive conclusion, as I stated

Perhaps. But the parallel stories are inarguably older.

OK. Here ^^ I appreciate the qualifier. It appears to... That's much more accurate than the previous statements you made about it. I think if you look at the textual and anthropological evidence, it's focused on the later books in Tanach where Judaism as a religion as a culture , please correct me if I'm wrong, had already been substantially developed

No, I’m thinking specifically of Genesis here.

 

[dybmh]

shared as an additional set of data points
certainly useful in that it raises many genuine questions

better video

Not useful... this is an advert for a book... can you offer anything more substantive?

edit: never-mind, I didn't see the 2nd video...

 

[dybmh]

Absolutely not. Stories were shared across cultures. Since Judah is at a geopolitical crossroads, and historically the whipping boy of Babylonian and Egyptian empires, it stands to reason that these earlier stories would be spread, appropriated and adapted.

"Absolutely not"? I think that's excessive, "Stands to reason"? OK. I can agree with that.

Perhaps. But the parallel stories are unarguably older.

My recollection may be biased, I admit it. If possible, remind me of the parallel stories from the surrounding older cultures? The most convincing examples would be parallel stories which are not reflected in other geographically distant cultures. The last time I looked at this, that was the weak point in the arguments claiming cultural appropriation and adaptation. The examples provided were common archetypes in other ancient religious/mythical creation stories as well. This undermined the impact of the examples provided.

Perhaps. But the parallel stories are inarguably older.

Only in writing... All ancient cultures engaged in oral story telling, right? Is there any reason to to exclude the tribe from the other side of the Evir river ( aka the Hebrews ) from this?

No, I’m thinking specifically of Genesis here.

Well, if you would like to discuss or debate it, I'm happy to proceed. If I recall, the evidence supporting appropriation/adaptation resulting in the book of Genesis is not iron clad.

 

[MNoBody]

Not useful... this is an advert for a book... can you offer anything more substantive?

the second video...i should remove the first video as it has little info to offer

 

[dybmh]

the second video...i should remove the first video as it has little info to offer

Ah. Thanks, I didn't see the 2nd one....

 

[sojourner]

"Absolutely not"? I think that's excessive, "Stands to reason"? OK. I can agree with that.

I meant “absolutely not” with regard to your statement that Im ignoring oral transmission.

My recollection may be biased, I admit it. If possible, remind me of the parallel stories from the surrounding older cultures? The most convincing examples would be parallel stories which are not reflected in other geographically distant cultures.

I’ll have to research my materials. Will get back to you with specifics.

Only in writing... All ancient cultures engaged in oral story telling, right? Is there any reason to to exclude the tribe from the other side of the Evir river ( aka the Hebrews ) from this?

Yes. The other cultures are older than that of the Hebrews. AFAIK.

Well, if you would like to discuss or debate it, I'm happy to proceed. If I recall, the evidence supporting appropriation/adaptation resulting in the book of Genesis is not iron clad.

What concerning the Bible is?

 

[MNoBody]

Ah. Thanks, I didn't see the 2nd one....

there is some preamble you could fast forward through on it...... using a different computer and have no saved links from this guy for a better video quickly....I found his material a few months back.

 

[dybmh]

there is some preamble you could fast forward through on it...... using a different computer and have no saved links from this guy for a better video quickly....I found his material a few months back.

I'm watching it...

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Classic 'circular reasoning' based on a religious agenda. Elmer Gantry has been resurrected.

Well, that's what it says.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[MNoBody]

This one is related...submitted as additional data

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

A biased belief — not a studied assessment.

Of course I'm biased. I am Christian. So?

My faith is not a result of your studied assessment. The study of the Bible will reveal that it claims to be the written Word of God. Which makes God the Author.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[dybmh]

better video

Well....

... this one is still a bit shmoozy..

It's heavy on claims and lacking data. But it's a huge subject. Here are my notes on the content of the 2nd "better" video. Feel free to correct me if I missed something you deem important.

Claims:

• Exodus Story is a blatant distortion ( approx. 2min ) ,
  
• the biggest deception ever in the history of mankind ( approx. 4 min )
  
• The true exodus story happened in a completely different land and in a completely different manner ( approx. 6 min )
• The Story was adjusted when the Septuagint translated the Torah ( approx. 6:20 )
  
• Palestine is not the promised land ( approx. 6:50 )

Data:

• Phonetic discrepancy in the word Pharaoh,
  
• Egypt didn't have Pharaohs, they have kings
• Mitzrayim is not Egypt
• Lack of Evidence of Patriarchs

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, that's what it says.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Like all ancient writings from the Egyptian Book of the Dead to the Hindu Vedas and the Bible; what they say does not give any credibility that what they say is true .

 

[shunyadragon]

Of course I'm biased. I am Christian. So?

My faith is not a result of your studied assessment. The study of the Bible will reveal that it claims to be the written Word of God. Which makes God the Author.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Only if you believe so before you study the Bible,

 

[MNoBody]

Well....

... this one is still a bit shmoozy..

It's heavy on claims and lacking data. But it's a huge subject. Here are my notes on the content of the 2nd "better" video. Feel free to correct me if I missed something you deem important.

Claims:

• Exodus Story is a blatant distortion ( approx. 2min ) ,
  
• the biggest deception ever in the history of mankind ( approx. 4 min )
  
• The true exodus story happened in a completely different land and in a completely different manner ( approx. 6 min )
• The Story was adjusted when the Septuagint translated the Torah ( approx. 6:20 )
  
• Palestine is not the promised land ( approx. 6:50 )

Data:

• Phonetic discrepancy in the word Pharaoh,
  
• Egypt didn't have Pharaohs, they have kings
• Mitzrayim is not Egypt
• Lack of Evidence of Patriarchs

it is an intro vid, the essays i read provide more data..and I haven't bought his book yet... I am just adding some related research.... and people can see where it goes for themselves....i plan on buying his book though based on what i found on vetting it