God's Israel in the new testament who is it *Romans 9:6-8

[3rdAngel]

Are you a robot?

You answer nothing I have asked. The reason is clear. The answers prove the emptiness of your theology.

Who do the verses I gave you in post #(118) speak to? Israel or the Church?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Nonsense. Your post was answered verse by verse with scripture showing the context you leave out that shows why you are error in post 111 linked that says....

"Your practice of eisegesis (reading into the scriptures that which they do not say) is noted as is your repitition that has already been addressed many times already. The answer provided below and in the many posts already provided shows correct exegesis of the surrounding scripture context of ROMANS 9:1-8 you leave out. ROMANS 9:1-8 is written to GENTILE BELIEVERS.

Lets look at the detail scripture by scripture...

ROMANS 9:1-4
[1], I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2], That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3], For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4], Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises
[5], Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Note: Romans 9:1-8 is addressing GENTILE BELIEVERS and Paul is stating in v1-5 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters) who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah. At the end of v5 it is written AMEN which is in the GREEK ἀμήν; amēn Of Hebrew origin [H543]; properly firm, that is, (figuratively) trustworthy ; adverbially surely (often as interjection so be it): - amen, verily. This is closing the previous thoughts before spoken meaning "so be it". Paul is now stating new thoughts in ROMANS 9:6-8

ROMANS 9:6-8
[6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL:
[7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called.
[8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

Note: Paul is stating of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters according to the scriptures) who true ISRAEL is and showing that just because someone says they are from ISRAEL does not mean that they are from ISRAEL v6, Neither because they were born of Abrahams lineage are they the children of Abraham v7 and in v8 so there is no misunderstanding he emphasises the same point a third time he is making in v6-7 in v8 stating "that is they which are the children in the physical flesh or the carnal mind are not the children of God but the children of the promises are counted for God's lineage to Abraham.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's true ISREAL in the new covenant and wheather JEW or GENTILE God's ISREAL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.

............

I believe this post shows the scripture context you leave out of ROMANS 9:1-8. If you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think this post does not answer your question instead of repeating yourself?"

............

Your response to the above exegesis of ROMANS 9:1-8 was to ignore this post and repeat yourself. I then asked you in the same post.....

If you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think this post does not answer your question instead of repeating yourself?

You ignored this question and just continued repeating yourself. Please tell me how this post does not answer your question and show why you are in error and why you simply ignore the scriptures that disagree with you. If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures shared with you?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Nonsense. Your post was answered verse by verse with scripture showing the context you leave out that shows why you are error in post 111 linked that says....

"Your practice of eisegesis (reading into the scriptures that which they do not say) is noted as is your repitition that has already been addressed many times already. The answer provided below and in the many posts already provided shows correct exegesis of the surrounding scripture context of ROMANS 9:1-8 you leave out. ROMANS 9:1-8 is written to GENTILE BELIEVERS.

Lets look at the detail scripture by scripture...

ROMANS 9:1-4
[1], I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2], That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3], For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4], Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises
[5], Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Note: Romans 9:1-8 is addressing GENTILE BELIEVERS and Paul is stating in v1-5 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters) who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah. At the end of v5 it is written AMEN which is in the GREEK ἀμήν; amēn Of Hebrew origin [H543]; properly firm, that is, (figuratively) trustworthy ; adverbially surely (often as interjection so be it): - amen, verily. This is closing the previous thoughts before spoken meaning "so be it". Paul is now stating new thoughts in ROMANS 9:6-8

ROMANS 9:6-8
[6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL:
[7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called.
[8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

Note: Paul is stating of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters according to the scriptures) who true ISRAEL is and showing that just because someone says they are from ISRAEL does not mean that they are from ISRAEL v6, Neither because they were born of Abrahams lineage are they the children of Abraham v7 and in v8 so there is no misunderstanding he emphasises the same point a third time he is making in v6-7 in v8 stating "that is they which are the children in the physical flesh or the carnal mind are not the children of God but the children of the promises are counted for God's lineage to Abraham.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's true ISREAL in the new covenant and wheather JEW or GENTILE God's ISREAL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.

............

I believe this post shows the scripture context you leave out of ROMANS 9:1-8. If you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think this post does not answer your question instead of repeating yourself?"

............

Your response was to ignore this post and repeat yourself. I then asked you in the same post If you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think this post does not answer your question instead of repeating yourself?

You ignored this question and just continued repeating yourself. Please tell me how this post does not answer your question and show why you are in error and why you simply ignore the scriptures that disagree with you. If you cannot why do you not believe them?

Are you a robot?

Please answer the question concerning the verses I gave in post #(118) and (120).

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

Are you a robot? Please answer the question concerning the verses I gave in post #(118) and (120).

Good-Ole-Rebel

The very post you are quoting from in post 119 linked answers your your question in post 118 and shows why you are in error as does post 121 linked answers your post 120. Did you bother reading it? It seems to did not.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

The very post you are quoting from in post 119 linked answers your question here and shows why you are in error. Did you bother reading it? It seems to did not.

Just tell me who the verses speak to. Israel or the Church. Simple question. Simple straight answers is all that is required.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

Just tell me who the verses speak to. Israel or the Church. Simple question. Simple straight answers is all that is required.
Good-Ole-Rebel

Try opening your eyes and reading the post shared with you. This is already answered. Your only repeating yourself. Tell me how those posts do not answer your questions through the scriptures you ignore if you do not believe they do? Seems you are caught up in the old covenant and do not understand the new.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Try opening your eyes and reading the post shared with you. This is already answered. Your only repeating yourself. Tell me how those posts do not answer your questions through the scriptures you ignore if you do not believe they do?

The verses I gave have not been addressed. So, answer the question pertaining to each verse. Church or Israel?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

The verses I gave have not been addressed. So, answer the question pertaining to each verse. Church or Israel?

Good-Ole-Rebel

I believe your post has been addressed in detail in post 111 or post 119 linked and post 121 linked show me how your verse has not been addressed when I have gone through every verse in ROMANS 9:1-8? If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures shared only as a help to you?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I believe your post has been addressed in detail in post 111 or post 119 linked and post 121 linked show me how your verse has not been addressed when I have gone through every verse in ROMANS 9:1-8? If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures shared only as a help to you?

I listed 9 verses in post #(118) from (Rom. 9-11). All you have to do is tell me, concerning each verse, who is being addressed. Israel or the Church? That's not hard is it?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

I listed 9 verses in post #(118) from (Rom. 9-11). All you have to do is tell me, concerning each verse, who is being addressed. Israel or the Church? That's not hard is it?

Good-Ole-Rebel

And I addressed this post that you ignored in post # 119 linked. Post 119 shows the difference between the physical and the Spiritual and the old covenant and the new covenant. No scripture you posted in post 118 says the church is not God's true ISRAEL. The scriptures show that ISRAEL in the FLESH is not God's true ISRAEL and that God's true ISRAEL in the new covenant is all those who believe and follow God's Word (the promises).

Your ignoring my question to you. I believe your post has been addressed in detail in post 111 or post 119 linked and post 121 linked show me how your verse has not been addressed when I have gone through every verse in ROMANS 9:1-8? If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures shared only as a help to you?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

And I addressed this post that you ignored in post # 119 linked. Post 119 shows the difference between the physical and the Spiritual and the old covenant and the new covenant. No scripture you posted in post 118 says the church is not God's true ISRAEL. The scriptures show that ISRAEL in the FLESH is not God's true ISRAEL and that God's true ISRAEL is all those who believe and follow God's Word.

Your ignoring my question to you. I believe your post has been addressed in detail in post 111 or post 119 linked and post 121 linked show me how your verse has not been addressed when I have gone through every verse in ROMANS 9:1-8? If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures shared only as a help to you?

I understand. You cant answer. You won't answer. The answers are to revealing.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

I understand. You cant answer. You won't answer. The answers are to revealing.

Good-Ole-Rebel

I understand you will not answer my questions because you cannot. I believe you simply choose to ignore the scriptures that show why you are in error. It is ok you are free to believe as you wish. However, ignoring God's Word my dear friend does not make it dissappear. If your not interested in a discussing just say so. I am sure we both have better things to do with our time.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I understand you will not answer my questions because you cannot. I believe you simply choose to ignore the scriptures that show why you are in error. It is ok you are free to believe as you wish. However, ignoring God's Word my dear friend does not make it dissappear. If your not interested in a discussing just say so. I am sure we both have better things to do with our time.

Post #(53)-----I answered your 5 points in your opening post. Plus, I answered (Gen. 32:28), (Gal.6:16), (Rom. 11:5). And concerning the sabbath I gave you (Col. 2:16-17)

Post #(62)----I answered (Rom. 9:6-8), (Heb. 8:10).

Post #(62,67)----I answered (Rom. 11:13-25) concerning the branches.

Post #(72)----I answered (Eph. 2:11-13), (Gal.3:28-29), (Rom. 9:6-8), (Rom. 2:28-29), (Ez. 36:26-27), (Jer. 31:33-34), (Heb. 8:10-12), (Rev.1:5-6), (1Peter 2:9-10).

Post #(73)----I answered (Col. 3:11), (Rom. 10:11-13).

Now, I have listed 9 verses found in (Rom. 9-11). I ask you simply to tell me if they are speaking of the Church or Israel.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

Post #(53)-----I answered your 5 points in your opening post. Plus, I answered (Gen. 32:28), (Gal.6:16), (Rom. 11:5). And concerning the sabbath I gave you (Col. 2:16-17)

Post #(62)----I answered (Rom. 9:6-8), (Heb. 8:10).

Post #(62,67)----I answered (Rom. 11:13-25) concerning the branches.

Post #(72)----I answered (Eph. 2:11-13), (Gal.3:28-29), (Rom. 9:6-8), (Rom. 2:28-29), (Ez. 36:26-27), (Jer. 31:33-34), (Heb. 8:10-12), (Rev.1:5-6), (1Peter 2:9-10).

Post #(73)----I answered (Col. 3:11), (Rom. 10:11-13).

Now, I have listed 9 verses found in (Rom. 9-11). I ask you simply to tell me if they are speaking of the Church or Israel.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Nonsense. None of the scriptures you have provided here support what your saying and everyone of them have already been addressed. If you do not want to answer my question to you just say so. No scripture you posted in the 9 verses you provided says the church is not God's true ISRAEL. The scriptures show that ISRAEL in the FLESH is not God's true ISRAEL and that God's true ISRAEL in the new covenant is all those who believe and follow God's Word (the promises). Your ignoring my question to you. I believe your posts have been addressed in detail in post 111 or post 119 linked and post 121 linked show me how your verses have not been addressed when I have gone through every verse in ROMANS 9:1-8? If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures shared only as a help to you?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Nonsense. None of the scriptures you have provided here support what your saying and everyone of them have already been addressed. If you do not want to answer my question to you just say so. No scripture you posted in the 9 verses you provided says the church is not God's true ISRAEL. The scriptures show that ISRAEL in the FLESH is not God's true ISRAEL and that God's true ISRAEL in the new covenant is all those who believe and follow God's Word (the promises). Your ignoring my question to you. I believe your posts have been addressed in detail in post 111 or post 119 linked and post 121 linked show me how your verses have not been addressed when I have gone through every verse in ROMANS 9:1-8? If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures shared only as a help to you?

I didn't ask if the 9 Scriptures I listed support what I am saying or not. I asked you to just simply tell me who each verse is speaking to. Church or Israel?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

I didn't ask if the 9 Scriptures I listed support what I am saying or not. I asked you to just simply tell me who each verse is speaking to. Church or Israel?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Why? I gave you a detailed exegesis of the context of ROMANS 9:1-8 in post # 121 linked focusing on v6-8 and elsewhere and you ignored it. Then I also asked you why you do not believe these scriptures provided in this post do not show that God's true ISRAEL is not physical ISRAEL in the FLESH but you will not tell me. As posted earlier the ROMANS is written to Gentile believers and Jewish believers (mainly Gentiles) what the 9 scriptures you provided were all simply showing was the difference between why physical ISRAEL is not God's true ISRAEL. The Hebrew word ISRAEL is only a name given by God to his people who are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

 

[2ndpillar]

Here is some good news for you. The new covenant is the new testament scriptures. It has happened and it is hear today if you believe and follow God's Word. The scriptures in JOHN 3:16. JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; HEBREWS 8:11; 1 JOHN 2:27; JOHN 8:31-36 are all a part of the same promise given in the new covenant scriptures of HEBREWS 8:11 and JEREMIAH 31:34. It is time to come out and return to the pure Word of God as God is Spirit and those who whorship him must whorship him in Spirit and in truth. God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear do not follow because they are not God's Sheep *JOHN 10:26-27.

May you receive Gods Word and be blessed

According to the false prophet Paul, you are released from the law and the prophets, for the decrees of God have been nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14) and not all will die (1 Cor 15:51-52), yet the actual Word of God, says "every one will die for their own iniquity" (Jeremiah 31:30). According to the unknown author of Hebrews, the law is obsolete. According to Yeshua, heaven and earth will pass away before the least of the law and the prophets passes away, and anyone teaching otherwise will be call "least". Keep in mind that Paul means "little", and "least" is the superlative of "little".(Matthew 5:19), and according to Paul, he is the foremost sinner. Apparently, Paul's message has attracted the "many".

 

[2ndpillar]

I didn't ask if the 9 Scriptures I listed support what I am saying or not. I asked you to just simply tell me who each verse is speaking to. Church or Israel?

Good-Ole-Rebel

It might be helpful if you defined "church". Is it the "church" supposedly built on the foundation of Petros (little stone)/Peter (Matthew 16:15-17), or is it the church built on the false gospel of Paul, whose name means "little", all of which come under the heading of the foundation of sand (foremost little stones), which will be washed away with the rain, wind, and floods (Matthew 7:25-27).

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Why? I gave you a detailed exegesis of the context of ROMANS 9:1-8 in post # 121 linked focusing on v6-8 and elsewhere and you ignored it. Then I also asked you why you do not believe these scriptures provided in this post do not show that God's true ISRAEL is not physical ISRAEL in the FLESH but you will not tell me. As posted earlier the ROMANS is written to Gentile believers and Jewish believers (mainly Gentiles) what the 9 scriptures you provided were all simply showing was the difference between why physical ISRAEL is not God's true ISRAEL. The Hebrew word ISRAEL is only a name given by God to his people who are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

Your so called detailed exegesis of (Rom. 9:1-8) does not address my question. That is just your smoke screen that makes you feel like you don't have to answer.

I have answered your questions when you have asked. Now, I ask for a simple answer to the 9 verses listed in post #(118). Who is addressed in each? Israel or the Church? Your continual refusal proves you cannot answer without somehow blowing smoke.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

It might be helpful if you defined "church". Is it the "church" supposedly built on the foundation of Petros (little stone)/Peter (Matthew 16:15-17), or is it the church built on the false gospel of Paul, whose name means "little", all of which come under the heading of the foundation of sand (foremost little stones), which will be washed away with the rain, wind, and floods (Matthew 7:25-27).

The one I am talking to knows the Church I am addressing.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sojourner]

PHYSICAL ISRAEL IS NOT GOD’S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

A true exegesis of a text deals with the text in question -- not with a plethora of disparate and unrelated texts. Therefore, we will deal only with the text as listed in the title of the thread: Rom 9:6-8 and see if an exegesis bears out the thesis statement that "physical Israel is not God's 'true Israel' in the new covenant."

The issue at stake, as I see it, is that the OP hopes to supplant the Judaic descendants of Abraham with the Church, using this text as "proof." But it's not that simple. There is a history in Judaism of two paradigms: that of Israel as "God's chosen," and that of primogeniture. They are interrelated, and the issue of primogeniture is addressed in this passage.

First, in the Covenant, God promised that the descendants of Abraham would be God's people. As we see elsewhere in the texts, God keeps God's promises. IOW, a promise is a promise. Israel certainly views this promise as still in force, according to the paradigm of heirs.

Second, Paul, speaking to Gentiles, has to justify how they, also, can be heirs. And he uses the Judaic principle of primogeniture against the Judaic custom in order to accomplish that goal. Primogeniture is the automatic inheritance of the eldest child of the family fortune, head of household, and spiritual leader.

However, we see another principle at work in the biblical narratives: God rarely works in accordance with primogeniture. In the beginning were Cain and Abel. Abel (the younger) was favored by God. Abraham had two sons. The elder was Ishmael by Hagar. The younger was Isaac. By the law of primogeniture, Ishmael should have inherited. But God chose Isaac. And we really don't know why. Isaac had two sons, Esau (the elder) and Jacob (the younger). Esau should have inherited. But Jacob inherited, and God favored Jacob. It was Jacob whose name was changed to Israel. Jacob had many sons. But it was next-to-youngest who found God's favor. The biblical paradigm is that God always seems to favor the younger, or the "underdog."

So Paul uses this. He asserts that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel." Our OP takes this at face value and uses the text to make a judgment about who has inherited God's kin-dom. And the poster makes clear the "truth" that "only those who believe in God's word" are the "true Israel." However, this isn't explicitly stated in the text, and cannot be inferred from it. On this basis alone the text in question fails to prove the OP.

Here's the interesting twist in the equation not considered by the OP that proves the thesis wrong. Paul knows that primogeniture is predicated on an automatic transmission, and that that transmission is to special privilege. That's how it worked: the elder son inherited. But as we've seen, God consistently "elects" someone else, and that someone else isn't elected to privilege, but to responsibility. In fact, Jesus makes this paradigm of election clear in several places. Probably most famous is Matthew 5, in which Jesus says that the meek shall inherit.

It is never made particularly clear what God's reasons for God's choices are. Paul shows that Judaic scriptures prove that God's choice is never bound to particular "rules" of inheritance. In fact, Paul has proved here that election isn't the result of anything we can do to deserve it. Yet the OP claims (although the concept isn't included in the text under question) that "only those who believe in God's word" inherit. This conclusion goes completely against what Paul has proven here.

The OP has consistently asserted that "God's word" = "the bible." IOW, those who believe what the bible says are the true Israel. This particular text does not bear that out.

(Cont'd.)