God's Israel in the new testament who is it *Romans 9:6-8

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

No your ignoring the answer that show the context you have left out because it does not agree with you.
The book of Romans is to GENTILE BELIEVERS and Paul is stating in v1-4 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters) who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah v5-6 but then goes on to state to the Gentiles who God's true ISRAEL is...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's true ISREAL in the new covenant and wheather JEW or GENTILE God's ISREAL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.

Your not listening and leaving out context.

Hope this helps...

(Rom. 9:3-4) establishes the context from which to interpret (9:6-8). You instead are working backwards making (9;6-8) establish (9:3-4).

Backwards....just like you make saved Jews and Gentiles today part of Israel instead of the Church.

Please answer the question. Who is Paul addressing in (Rom. 9:3-4)? "...my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Issraelites...."

Your refusal to answer shows the emptiness of your claim.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

All ready answered in the post you are quoting from I suggest you read it...

Romans 9 is addressing GENTILE BELIEVERS and Paul is stating in v1-4 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters) who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah v5-6 but then goes on to state to the Gentiles who God's true ISRAEL is...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's true ISREAL in the new covenant and wheather JEW or GENTILE God's ISREAL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.

Your not listening and leaving out context.

Hope this helps...

No, Paul is not addressing Gentile believers. He is addressing Jews, who are Israelites. (9:3-4) "...my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites...."

The context now being established, identifies the Israelites and children of promise in (9:6-8).

So, in (9:6), when it says, "...they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...." who is being spoken of? See (9:3-4).

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

Answer the question. Your inability, refusal, to answer proves your wrong. (Rom. 9:3-4) establishes the context of the Israel Paul is addressing.

So, please answer. Who is Paul addressing in (Rom. 9:3-4)? "...my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites...."

Good-Ole-Rebel

You say I have not answered your question. If you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think this post does not answer your question instead of repeating yourself? All your posts have been repitition saying exavtly the same thing, so only one post will be provided to answer your question as your wasting bandwidth. Perhaps this will help. I believe this post and elsewhere showing the scriptures context already you leave out of ROMANS 9:1-8 clearly answers your question and shows why you are in error.

The answer provided below and in the many posts already provided shows the surrounding context of ROMANS 9:1-8 which is written to GENTILE BELIEVERS

ROMANS 9:1-4
[1], I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2], That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3], For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4], Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises
[5], Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Note: Romans 9:1-8 is addressing GENTILE BELIEVERS and Paul is stating in v1-5 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters) who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah. At the end of v5 it is written AMEN which is in the GREEK ἀμήν; amēn Of Hebrew origin [H543]; properly firm, that is, (figuratively) trustworthy ; adverbially surely (often as interjection so be it): - amen, verily. This is closing the previous thoughts before spoken meaning "so be it". Paul is now stating new thoughts in ROMANS 9:6-8

ROMANS 9:6-8
[6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL:
[7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called.
[8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

Note: Paul is stating of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters according to the scriptures) who true ISRAEL is and showing that just because someone says they are from ISRAEL does not mean that they are from ISRAEL v6, Neither because they were born of Abrahams lineage are they the children of Abraham v7 and in v8 so there is no misunderstanding he emphasises the same point a third time he is making in v6-7 in v8 stating "that is they which are the children in the physical flesh or the carnal mind are not the children of God but the children of the promises are counted for God's lineage to Abraham.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's true ISREAL in the new covenant and wheather JEW or GENTILE God's ISREAL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.

............

I believe this post shows the scripture context you leave out of ROMANS 9:1-8. If you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think this post does not answer your question instead of repeating yourself?

May you receive God's Word and be blessed

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

You say I have not answered your question. If you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think this post does not answer your question instead of repeating yourself? All your posts have been repitition saying exavtly the same thing, so only one post will be provided to answer your question as your wasting bandwidth. Perhaps this will help. I believe this post and elsewhere showing the scriptures context already you leave out of ROMANS 9:1-8 clearly answers your question and shows why you are in error.

The answer provided below and in the many posts already provided shows the surrounding context of ROMANS 9:1-8 which is written to GENTILE BELIEVERS

ROMANS 9:1-4
[1], I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2], That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3], For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4], Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises
[5], Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Note: Romans 9:1-8 is addressing GENTILE BELIEVERS and Paul is stating in v1-5 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters) who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah. At the end of v5 it is written AMEN which is in the GREEK ἀμήν; amēn Of Hebrew origin [H543]; properly firm, that is, (figuratively) trustworthy ; adverbially surely (often as interjection so be it): - amen, verily. This is closing the previous thoughts before spoken meaning "so be it". Paul is now stating new thoughts in ROMANS 9:6-8

ROMANS 9:6-8
[6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL:
[7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called.
[8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

Note: Paul is stating of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters according to the scriptures) who true ISRAEL is and showing that just because someone says they are from ISRAEL does not mean that they are from ISRAEL v6, Neither because they were born of Abrahams lineage are they the children of Abraham v7 and in v8 so there is no misunderstanding he emphasises the same point a third time he is making in v6-7 in v8 stating "that is they which are the children in the physical flesh or the carnal mind are not the children of God but the children of the promises are counted for God's lineage to Abraham.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's true ISREAL in the new covenant and wheather JEW or GENTILE God's ISREAL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.

............

I believe this post shows the scripture context you leave out of ROMANS 9:1-8. If you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think this post does not answer your question instead of repeating yourself?

May you receive God's Word and be blessed

No, read post #(102).

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

No, read post #(102).
Good-Ole-Rebel

I did I challenged you saying if you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think post # 103 linked does not answer your question whhen it establsihes all the context of ROMANS 9:1-8 instead of repeating yourself? Your not reading the posts shared with you are you.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I did I challenged you saying if you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think post # 103 linked does not answer your question whhen it establsihes all the context of ROMANS 9:1-8 instead of repeating yourself? Your not reading the posts shared with you are you.

And I answered you when I said No. (Rom. 9:3-4) establishes the context. "...for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites:...."

Who is being addressed here? Jews who are Israelites. It can be no other.

Therefore, when in (9:6) it says "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...." Who is 'not all Israel which are of Israel'?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[2ndpillar]

This thread is started, because some seem to be confused mixing up the physical nation of ISRAEL in the old covenant scriptures with God's true ISRAEL in the new covenant.

In this thread we are asking the questions...

1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

I will provide what I have discovered from a prayerful study of God's Word below for your consideration below and look forward to hearing your view (scripture only please).

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

You seem to be confused. Jeremiah 31 refers to the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah", and you will know when that "new covenant" will happen is when you won't have to teach everyone to know God. Apparently that hasn't happened. The "house of Judah"/Judah/Jews, has pretty much been restored. The "house of Israel", the 10 northern tribes, remains "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36 & 37), and is awaiting being gathered from the "nations"/Gentile to be brought to the "land I gave to your forefathers", and will "observe my statutes" when reunited with "Judah"/Jews. Your "new covenant" per the writings of the unknown author of Hebrews, is bunk. The "first" is not "obsolete", and is not about to "disappear".

The name "Israel" means "He struggles with God", as Jacob apparently wrestled with an angel of God and God prevailed.

"Israel" was divided into two kingdoms, the house of Israel and the house of Judah. They remain separated until today, and will not be reunited until Ezekiel 37, when they will live on the land of their forefathers and be ruled by "David my Servant". This will not happen until judgment is fully taken upon both Judah and the house of Israel (Joel 3). Your gospel of Grace is simply a false gospel of a false prophet (Matthew 7:15) Yeshua's message was the message of the kingdom of God based on justice and mercy.

 

[3rdAngel]

And I answered you when I said No. (Rom. 9:3-4) establishes the context. "...for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites:...."

Who is being addressed here? Jews who are Israelites. It can be no other.

Therefore, when in (9:6) it says "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...." Who is 'not all Israel which are of Israel'?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Ok perhaps its best to put you on ignore until you want to have an honest discussion. I did I challenged you saying if you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think post # 103 linked does not answer your question when it establsihes all the context of ROMANS 9:1-8 instead of repeating yourself? Your not reading the posts shared with you are you and your simply repeating yourself. Lets agree to disagree and let me know when you want to discuss the scriptures.

 

[3rdAngel]

You seem to be confused. Jeremiah 31 refers to the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah", and you will know when that "new covenant" will happen is when you won't have to teach everyone to know God. Apparently that hasn't happened. The "house of Judah"/Judah/Jews, has pretty much been restored. The "house of Israel", the 10 northern tribes, remains "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36 & 37), and is awaiting being gathered from the "nations"/Gentile to be brought to the "land I gave to your forefathers", and will "observe my statutes" when reunited with "Judah"/Jews. Your "new covenant" per the writings of the unknown author of Hebrews, is bunk. The "first" is not "obsolete", and is not about to "disappear".

The name "Israel" means "He struggles with God", as Jacob apparently wrestled with an angel of God and God prevailed.

"Israel" was divided into two kingdoms, the house of Israel and the house of Judah. They remain separated until today, and will not be reunited until Ezekiel 37, when they will live on the land of their forefathers and be ruled by "David my Servant". This will not happen until judgment is fully taken upon both Judah and the house of Israel (Joel 3). Your gospel of Grace is simply a false gospel of a false prophet (Matthew 7:15) Yeshua's message was the message of the kingdom of God based on justice and mercy.

No. The confusion seems to be on your side. Do you know what the new covenant is? Who do you think these new covenant promises are for *JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; HEBREWS 8:11; 1 JOHN 2:27; JOHN 8:31-36?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Ok perhaps its best to put you on ignore until you want to have an honest discussion. I did I challenged you saying if you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think post # 103 linked does not answer your question when it establsihes all the context of ROMANS 9:1-8 instead of repeating yourself? Your not reading the posts shared with you are you and your simply repeating yourself. Lets agree to disagree and let me know when you want to discuss the scriptures.

(Rom. 9:6) "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

Who is 'which are of Israel'?

The answer is found in the context. The context has been established in (Rom. 9:3-4) "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites...."

Therefore the "they are not all Israel" in (9:6) must refer to those who are first "of Israel" in (9:6). Paul's "brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh". (9:3-4)

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

(Rom. 9:6) "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

Who is 'which are of Israel'?

The answer is found in the context. The context has been established in (Rom. 9:3-4) "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites...."

Therefore the "they are not all Israel" in (9:6) must refer to those who are first "of Israel" in (9:6). Paul's "brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh". (9:3-4)

Good-Ole-Rebel

Nonsense. Your practice of eisegesis (reading into the scriptures that which they do not say) is noted as is your repitition that has already been addressed many times already. The answer provided below and in the many posts already provided shows correct exegesis of the surrounding scripture context of ROMANS 9:1-8 you leave out. ROMANS 9:1-8 is written to GENTILE BELIEVERS.

Lets look at the detail scripture by scripture...

ROMANS 9:1-4
[1], I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2], That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3], For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4], Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises
[5], Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Note: Romans 9:1-8 is addressing GENTILE BELIEVERS and Paul is stating in v1-5 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters) who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah. At the end of v5 it is written AMEN which is in the GREEK ἀμήν; amēn Of Hebrew origin [H543]; properly firm, that is, (figuratively) trustworthy ; adverbially surely (often as interjection so be it): - amen, verily. This is closing the previous thoughts before spoken meaning "so be it". Paul is now stating new thoughts in ROMANS 9:6-8

ROMANS 9:6-8
[6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL:
[7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called.
[8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

Note: Paul is stating of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters according to the scriptures) who true ISRAEL is and showing that just because someone says they are from ISRAEL does not mean that they are from ISRAEL v6, Neither because they were born of Abrahams lineage are they the children of Abraham v7 and in v8 so there is no misunderstanding he emphasises the same point a third time he is making in v6-7 in v8 stating "that is they which are the children in the physical flesh or the carnal mind are not the children of God but the children of the promises are counted for God's lineage to Abraham.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's true ISREAL in the new covenant and wheather JEW or GENTILE God's ISREAL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.

............

I believe this post shows the scripture context you leave out of ROMANS 9:1-8. If you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think this post does not answer your question instead of repeating yourself?

May you receive God's Word and be blessed

 

[74x12]

(Rom. 9:3-4) establishes the context from which to interpret (9:6-8). You instead are working backwards making (9;6-8) establish (9:3-4).

Backwards....just like you make saved Jews and Gentiles today part of Israel instead of the Church.

Please answer the question. Who is Paul addressing in (Rom. 9:3-4)? "...my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Issraelites...."

Your refusal to answer shows the emptiness of your claim.

Good-Ole-Rebel

The answer to this dilemma is in that there are two Israels. The one of earth and one of heaven. Same with Jerusalem that is above vs. the one that is for this current age. (see Galatians 4:25-27 for Jerusalem that is of heaven vs earthly Jerusalem)

Abraham was promised his seed would be as the "sand on the seashore" and the "stars of heaven". So you can see a twofold promise. One of earth and one is heavenly.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The Israel that is of heaven began when Jesus rose from the dead. This Jesus is the "head" of the body that is heavenly Israel.

You'll notice that Jesus is Israel by comparing what you know of Jesus with the following passages:

• Jesus is called out of Egypt and is said to fulfill the prophecy only for Israel the Son of God.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

• Israel is the only firstborn Son of God.

Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Finally, Isaiah 49:1-6 is about Jesus. Yet, is called "Israel". The description is of Jesus as we read in Revelation He has a "sharp two edged sword" coming out of His mouth. (Revelation 1:16)

And the most clear point that this is about Jesus rather than the earthly nation of Israel is because it says of Him that He was formed to "bring Jacob again to him" and it says of them "though Israel be not gathered" yet shall I(Jesus) be glorious in the eyes of the Lord ..."

So, both Jesus is called Israel here and the earthly nation whose head is Jacob is called Israel also. That's why there can be confusion on this topic. But all confusion should be cleared up when we realize that there is a distinction between the earthly Israel and the heavenly Israel. The heavenly Israel begins when Jesus rises from the dead. The reason for this is because He at that point became immortal and overcame death. So all who are born as members of His body share in this immortality and they become members of the eternal Israel rather than the temporal, earthly Israel.

Isaiah 49:1-6
49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

 

[2ndpillar]

No. The confusion seems to be on your side. Do you know what the new covenant is? Who do you think these new covenant promises are for *JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; HEBREWS 8:11; 1 JOHN 2:27; JOHN 8:31-36?

The "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31 is defined in Jeremiah 31, whereas the house of Judah and Israel will know the Lord, and "I will put my law within them". That hasn't happened. The "house of Israel", who are as the sands of the sea, remains lost/scattered among the nations (Ezekiel 36:24-28). John 14:26 is about one's teacher being the "Holy Spirit", who brings to mind Yeshua's teaching, not some teaching of a "wolf in sheep's clothing. (Matthew 7:15). You have mixed the leaven of the Pharisee with the bread, and have ruined the whole loaf for yourself. The "new covenant" of Hebrew's unknown author is pure bunk.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Nonsense. Your practice of eisegesis (reading into the scriptures that which they do not say) is noted as is your repitition that has already been addressed many times already. The answer provided below and in the many posts already provided shows correct exegesis of the surrounding scripture context of ROMANS 9:1-8 you leave out. ROMANS 9:1-8 is written to GENTILE BELIEVERS.

Lets look at the detail scripture by scripture...

ROMANS 9:1-4
[1], I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2], That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3], For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4], Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises
[5], Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Note: Romans 9:1-8 is addressing GENTILE BELIEVERS and Paul is stating in v1-5 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters) who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah. At the end of v5 it is written AMEN which is in the GREEK ἀμήν; amēn Of Hebrew origin [H543]; properly firm, that is, (figuratively) trustworthy ; adverbially surely (often as interjection so be it): - amen, verily. This is closing the previous thoughts before spoken meaning "so be it". Paul is now stating new thoughts in ROMANS 9:6-8

ROMANS 9:6-8
[6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL:
[7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called.
[8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

Note: Paul is stating of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters according to the scriptures) who true ISRAEL is and showing that just because someone says they are from ISRAEL does not mean that they are from ISRAEL v6, Neither because they were born of Abrahams lineage are they the children of Abraham v7 and in v8 so there is no misunderstanding he emphasises the same point a third time he is making in v6-7 in v8 stating "that is they which are the children in the physical flesh or the carnal mind are not the children of God but the children of the promises are counted for God's lineage to Abraham.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's true ISREAL in the new covenant and wheather JEW or GENTILE God's ISREAL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.

............

I believe this post shows the scripture context you leave out of ROMANS 9:1-8. If you believe I have not answered your question perhaps you would like to explain why you think this post does not answer your question instead of repeating yourself?

May you receive God's Word and be blessed

I am not reading anything into (Rom. 9). You are. As I said, you are just backwards. You are being dishonest with the context which is always established first. Concerning Israel, the context is established in (9:3-4). Again, who is 'of Israel' in (9:6)?

Yes, (Romans) is written to a Gentile Church. That doesn't change the fact that the subject, those addressed in (Rom. 9-11), are Jews, Israelites.

If you want to get into further context, which I'm sure you don't, you should ask yourself why does Paul feel the need to speak to the Jewish problem of unbelief in (Rom. 9-11)?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

The answer to this dilemma is in that there are two Israels. The one of earth and one of heaven. Same with Jerusalem that is above vs. the one that is for this current age. (see Galatians 4:25-27 for Jerusalem that is of heaven vs earthly Jerusalem)

Abraham was promised his seed would be as the "sand on the seashore" and the "stars of heaven". So you can see a twofold promise. One of earth and one is heavenly.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The Israel that is of heaven began when Jesus rose from the dead. This Jesus is the "head" of the body that is heavenly Israel.

You'll notice that Jesus is Israel by comparing what you know of Jesus with the following passages:

• Jesus is called out of Egypt and is said to fulfill the prophecy only for Israel the Son of God.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

• Israel is the only firstborn Son of God.

Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Finally, Isaiah 49:1-6 is about Jesus. Yet, is called "Israel". The description is of Jesus as we read in Revelation He has a "sharp two edged sword" coming out of His mouth. (Revelation 1:16)

And the most clear point that this is about Jesus rather than the earthly nation of Israel is because it says of Him that He was formed to "bring Jacob again to him" and it says of them "though Israel be not gathered" yet shall I(Jesus) be glorious in the eyes of the Lord ..."

So, both Jesus is called Israel here and the earthly nation whose head is Jacob is called Israel also. That's why there can be confusion on this topic. But all confusion should be cleared up when we realize that there is a distinction between the earthly Israel and the heavenly Israel. The heavenly Israel begins when Jesus rises from the dead. The reason for this is because He at that point became immortal and overcame death. So all who are born as members of His body share in this immortality and they become members of the eternal Israel rather than the temporal, earthly Israel.

Isaiah 49:1-6
49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

As a Christian and one who believes both Old and New Testaments as the written Word of God, I don't see a dilemma.

Neither do I see two Israel's. You certainly have those Jews who are not believers who do not make up Israel. And you have the believing Jews that do make up Israel. We are addressing Israel as it is represented on earth.

At present Israel is in unbelief. She is under a judicial blindness from God. (Rom. 11:8-10)

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

I am not reading anything into (Rom. 9). You are. As I said, you are just backwards. You are being dishonest with the context which is always established first. Concerning Israel, the context is established in (9:3-4). Again, who is 'of Israel' in (9:6)?

Yes, (Romans) is written to a Gentile Church. That doesn't change the fact that the subject, those addressed in (Rom. 9-11), are Jews, Israelites.

If you want to get into further context, which I'm sure you don't, you should ask yourself why does Paul feel the need to speak to the Jewish problem of unbelief in (Rom. 9-11)?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Your trying to read things into a single scripture that is not there while ignoring the complete context of what the scriptures teach. ROMANS 9:1-8 is not addressing JEWS whatsoever, it is addressing GENTILE believers and possibly some converted JEWS stating that the unbelieving JEWS rejected JESUS as the MESSIAH and he (Paul) has sorrow of heart for them as they are his brothers and sisters, then stating who God's true ISRAEL are and they are not those born in the FLESH and not of the lineage of Abraham but those who have faith in the promise. Your ignoring the scriptures in order to hold on to a belief that is not biblical in my opinion so I guess we will agree to disagree. Paul is stating that it is unbelief that makes one not a part of God's ISRAEAL and will keep you out of God's Kingdom.

 

[3rdAngel]

The "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31 is defined in Jeremiah 31, whereas the house of Judah and Israel will know the Lord, and "I will put my law within them". That hasn't happened. The "house of Israel", who are as the sands of the sea, remains lost/scattered among the nations (Ezekiel 36:24-28). John 14:26 is about one's teacher being the "Holy Spirit", who brings to mind Yeshua's teaching, not some teaching of a "wolf in sheep's clothing. (Matthew 7:15). You have mixed the leaven of the Pharisee with the bread, and have ruined the whole loaf for yourself. The "new covenant" of Hebrew's unknown author is pure bunk.

Here is some good news for you. The new covenant is the new testament scriptures. It has happened and it is hear today if you believe and follow God's Word. The scriptures in JOHN 3:16. JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; JOHN 7:17; HEBREWS 8:11; 1 JOHN 2:27; JOHN 8:31-36 are all a part of the same promise given in the new covenant scriptures of HEBREWS 8:11 and JEREMIAH 31:34. It is time to come out and return to the pure Word of God as God is Spirit and those who whorship him must whorship him in Spirit and in truth. God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear do not follow because they are not God's Sheep *JOHN 10:26-27.

May you receive Gods Word and be blessed

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Your trying to read things into a single scripture that is not there while ignoring the complete context of what the scriptures teach. ROMANS 9:1-8 is not addressing JEWS whatsoever, it is addressing GENTILE believers and possibly some converted JEWS stating that the unbelieving JEWS rejected JESUS as the MESSIAH and he (Paul) has sorrow of heart for them as they are his brothers and sisters, then stating who God's true ISRAEL are and they are not those born in the FLESH and not of the lineage of Abraham but those who have faith in the promise. Your ignoring the scriptures in order to hold on to a belief that is not biblical in my opinion so I guess we will agree to disagree. Paul is stating that it is unbelief that makes one not a part of God's ISRAEAL and will keep you out of God's Kingdom.

Well, you can say that. But that is not what (Rom. 9:3-4) says. You have to create through manipulation of the Scripture a false doctrine of the Church being spiritual Israel.

(Rom. 9-11) concerns the physical nation of Israel and gives answers as to the why of their unbelief.

Tell me, who do these verses speak of? Israel or the Church?

(Rom. 9:31) "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness."

(Rom. 10:1) "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

(Rom. 10:19) "But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."

(Rom. 10:21) "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

(Rom. 11:1) "I say then Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. "

(Rom. 11:7-8) "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day."

(Rom. 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

(Rom. 11:26) "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[3rdAngel]

Well, you can say that. But that is not what (Rom. 9:3-4) says. You have to create through manipulation of the Scripture a false doctrine of the Church being spiritual Israel.

(Rom. 9-11) concerns the physical nation of Israel and gives answers as to the why of their unbelief.

Tell me, who do these verses speak of? Israel or the Church?

(Rom. 9:31) "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness."

(Rom. 10:1) "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

(Rom. 10:19) "But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."

(Rom. 10:21) "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

(Rom. 11:1) "I say then Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. "

(Rom. 11:7-8) "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day."

(Rom. 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

(Rom. 11:26) "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

Good-Ole-Rebel

You do know the difference between the new covenant and the old covenants right? The physical and the Spiritual to which the physical points to? What do you think the sacrificial physical lamb for remission of sins pointed to in the old covenant? What about physical circumcision what does that mean? How about the annual feast days of Leviticus 23?

According to the scriptures physical ISRAEL that do not believe and follow God's Word is not God's true new covenant ISRAEL *ROMANS 9:6-8. This is shown in the new testament scriptures that point to God's true ISRAEL being all those who believe and follow God's Word under the new covenant *EPHESIANS 2:11-13; GALATIANS 3:28-29; ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13.

Just like physical circumcision of the old covenant represents a new heart by faith in the new covenant *ROMANS 3:29; HEBREWS 8:10; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:9 and the physical sacrifical lamb for remission of sins of the old covenant represents JESUS in the new covenant *JOHN 1:29; JOHN 1:36; ACTS 8:32; 1 PETER 1:19 physical ISRAEL represents all those who believe and follow God's Word in the new covenant (according to the promise).

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

More scripture provided here for those who are interested. As these are not one off scriptures..

1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

You do know the difference between the new covenant and the old covenants right? The physical and the Spiritual to which the physical points to? What do you think the sacrificial physical lamb for remission of sins pointed to in the old covenant? What about physical circumcision what does that mean? How about the annual feast days of Leviticus 23?

According to the scriptures physical ISRAEL that do not believe and follow God's Word is not God's true new covenant ISRAEL *ROMANS 9:6-8. This is shown in the new testament scriptures that point to God's true ISRAEL being all those who believe and follow God's Word under the new covenant *EPHESIANS 2:11-13; GALATIANS 3:28-29; ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13.

Just like physical circumcision represents a new heart by faith in the new covenant *ROMANS 3:29; HEBREWS 8:10; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:9 and the physical sacrifical lamb of the old covenant represents JESUS in the new covenant *JOHN 1:29; JOHN 1:36; ACTS 8:32; 1 PETER 1:19 physical ISRAEL represents all those who believe and follow God's Word in the new covenant.

More scripture provided here for those who are interested...

1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

Are you a robot?

You answer nothing I have asked. The reason is clear. The answers prove the emptiness of your theology.

Who do the verses I gave you in post #(118) speak to? Israel or the Church?

Good-Ole-Rebel