God's Heavenly Will on Earth?

[Ben Dhyan]

That marked in red logically can't have come from the teaching of Jesus, for it's incongruent with the other record of the prayer, as well as practically everything Jesus was about,..preparing souls to be born of spirit into the spiritual Heavenly world.

I have heard that there had never been consensus amongst Church scholars from the beginning as to the authenticity of the additional lines in Matthew, with some declaring them to be a forgery.

I would be inclined to believe that to be the case, as it would fit the sort of thing the 'dark' forces would want, to undermine the true teaching of Jesus about the 'straight path' to eternal life through being born of the spirit, by creating the impression that Heaven was coming to earth so just be patient and keep praying for it.

I know that JW's have staked much faith on a future Heavenly Earth but so have many of other faiths, but I wish them well in other respects but can't go along with this obvious fallacy.

Lords Prayer, Mathew 6:9 -12

‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one'.

Lords Prayer, Luke 11:2 - 4

‘Our Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation'.

John 18:36

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben,

Sorry as never have proven points for debate, can only discuss.
To personal understanding the *SATYA YUG* is akin to heaven on earth.
*KALI YUG* that we are going through is the worst time and only when the end when people will be so fed up of it all and realization will come in this yug then again it will swing back to Satya yug.
Yuga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Love & rgds

 

[Thief]

That marked in red logically can't have come from the teaching of Jesus, for it's incongruent with the other record of the prayer, as well as practically everything Jesus was about,..preparing souls to be born of spirit into the spiritual Heavenly world.

I have heard that there had never been consensus amongst Church scholars from the beginning as to the authenticity of the additional lines in Matthew, with some declaring them to be a forgery.

I would be inclined to believe that to be the case, as it would fit the sort of thing the 'dark' forces would want, to undermine the true teaching of Jesus about the 'straight path' to eternal life through being born of the spirit, by creating the impression that Heaven was coming to earth so just be patient and keep praying for it.

I know that JW's have staked much faith on a future Heavenly Earth but so have many of other faiths, but I wish them well in other respects but can't go along with this obvious fallacy.

Lords Prayer, Mathew 6:9 -12

‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one'.

Lords Prayer, Luke 11:2 - 4

‘Our Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation'.

John 18:36

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

If I may....'the kingdom is within you'

When you recite the Lord's Prayer many things happen.

First on the list...you have declared yourself a son of God.
So...is there a son of God on this earth?
Only if you really meant it.

The rest of the prayer is your pledge of performance
and the terms you agree to live by.

You are then the same person on this earth as you will be in heaven.

If you succeed.... fine and good.

The angels hear when the prayer is recited.
They then await patiently for you to rise from the dust.
If they find what they desire....they will ask you to continue...and to follow.

If not...they will turn and leave you wherever you fell.
And the devil behind you will laugh.

Considering the severity of such a pledge...
I think reservation should be applied, rather than teaching people to simply recite the words.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You are then the same person on this earth as you will be in heaven.

It is my understanding that there are no people in Heaven,..only spiritual entities.

God is omnipresent....

This captures the essential theme imho...

I died as a mineral and became a plant;
I died as a plant and rose to animal;
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man to soar...
With angels blest.
But even from an angel I must pass on:
All except God must perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel soul,
I shall become what no mind ever conceived. -Jalaluddin Rumi

:namaste

 

[Thief]

It is my understanding that there are no people in Heaven,..only spiritual entities.

God is omnipresent....

This captures the essential theme imho...

I died as a mineral and became a plant;
I died as a plant and rose to animal;
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man to soar...
With angels blest.
But even from an angel I must pass on:
All except God must perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel soul,
I shall become what no mind ever conceived. -Jalaluddin Rumi

:namaste

So God is not a person?
And lacking that quality...'He' has the ability to create people?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So God is not a person?
And lacking that quality...'He' has the ability to create people?

Absolute God doesn't create anything,...creation, preservation, and destruction are merely differentiated aspects of the transcendent birthless unchanging Whole.

God is the One that is All,...the transcendent Unity of all existence!!!

The God that is described by mortal minds is not the Eternal God.

But fwiw, if you want to think of God as a person, or even Flying Spaghetti Monster, please go ahead..

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That marked in red logically can't have come from the teaching of Jesus, for it's incongruent with the other record of the prayer, as well as practically everything Jesus was about,..preparing souls to be born of spirit into the spiritual Heavenly world.
I have heard that there had never been consensus amongst Church scholars from the beginning as to the authenticity of the additional lines in Matthew, with some declaring them to be a forgery.
I would be inclined to believe that to be the case, as it would fit the sort of thing the 'dark' forces would want, to undermine the true teaching of Jesus about the 'straight path' to eternal life through being born of the spirit, by creating the impression that Heaven was coming to earth so just be patient and keep praying for it.
I know that JW's have staked much faith on a future Heavenly Earth but so have many of other faiths, but I wish them well in other respects but can't go along with this obvious fallacy.
Lords Prayer, Mathew 6:9 -12
‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one'.
Lords Prayer, Luke 11:2 - 4
‘Our Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation'.
John 18:36
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

'Another place' as meaning ruling from heaven over earth.
[Rev. 20v6; 5 vs 9,10]
Jesus has earthly subjects according to Psalm 72 v 8.

What is God's will for heaven? Peace or violence and war?
Do people go to heaven and find pollution in heaven?
Is there sickness in heaven, or death in heaven?
Do people go to heaven to die in heaven, or live [be alive] in heaven?

Don't people think that God's will for heaven is peace and life eternal?
So, since God's will for heaven is only good righteous conditions, then to have 'God's will be done here on earth as it is in heaven', wouldn't that indicate good conditions for earth ?

Isn't Jesus crowned king of God's kingdom?
Jesus addressed the enemy Pharisees at Luke 17 v 20.
Jesus addressed his disciples at Luke 17 v 22
So, at verse 21 Jesus was still talking to the enemy Pharisees.
Surely God's kingdom would not be inside of those Pharisees.
But, Jesus was within their midst at that moment among them.
Among them as 'king designate' of God's kingdom.
At Luke [19 vs 11-15] Jesus taught the kingdom would Not immediately or instantly appear. First there would be a rise and fall of world powers as Daniel described by a huge statue made of different metal.
We are now at the time of the statue's feetDaniel [2 vs 41-43] and leading up to the kingdom action of verse 44.

God's kingdom is described as a 'stone' at verses 34,35,45.
A 'stone' that becomes a 'great mountain' or mountain-like organization filling the whole earth. -Daniel 7 vs 13,14.

What is the purpose of Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So God is not a person?
And lacking that quality...'He' has the ability to create people?

According to Hebrews 9 v 24 God is a person because the resurrected ascended to heaven Jesus appears before the presence or person of God.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

We are now at the time of the statue's feetDaniel [2 vs 41-43] and leading up to the kingdom action of verse 44.

God's kingdom is described as a 'stone' at verses 34,35,45.
A 'stone' that becomes a 'great mountain' or mountain-like organization filling the whole earth. -Daniel 7 vs 13,14.

What is the purpose of Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth?

Yes URAVIP2ME, it is my understanding that the world at present is approaching Rev 16:16.

Rev 3:14 Seventh Letter leads to Rev 19 and resurrection.
Rev 8:1 The seventh Seal leads to the Seven Trumpets and the seventh Trumpet Rev 11:15 in turn leads to Rev 19 and resurrection.
Rev 14:16 Sixth Angel leads to the Seven Angels with Vials and the seventh Vial Rev 16:17 in turn leads to Rev 19 and resurection.

Fwiw, my understanding that the 1000 year period is a testing of those souls who failed the first time round, a second chance if you like.

 

[sojourner]

Absolute God doesn't create anything,...creation, preservation, and destruction are merely differentiated aspects of the transcendent birthless unchanging Whole.

God is the One that is All,...the transcendent Unity of all existence!!!

The God that is described by mortal minds is not the Eternal God.

But fwiw, if you want to think of God as a person, or even Flying Spaghetti Monster, please go ahead..

God is transcendent and universal. But you're forgetting that God is also immanent and particular. Especially within the Xtian doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Thief]

According to Hebrews 9 v 24 God is a person because the resurrected ascended to heaven Jesus appears before the presence or person of God.

My questions were rhetorical...leading to what I believe to be obvious.

Ascending to God is something, all will do.
We are here to learn all that we can....then back to God we go.

As for Jesus ascending....that does not prove God to be a person...
even though I do think so.
And Jesus ascending to heaven is a given.
If He didn't make it, the rest of us have no hope.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

God is transcendent and universal. But you're forgetting that God is also immanent and particular. Especially within the Xtian doctrine of the Trinity.

Fyi, nothing is amiss except your lack of understanding of the implication that if,.."God is the One that is All,...the transcendent Unity of all existence!!!", then it is logically is understood that God must be immanent in all existence.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

My questions were rhetorical...leading to what I believe to be obvious.

Ascending to God is something, all will do.
We are here to learn all that we can....then back to God we go.

As for Jesus ascending....that does not prove God to be a person...
even though I do think so.
And Jesus ascending to heaven is a given.
If He didn't make it, the rest of us have no hope.

Ascension doesn't apply to the person, it applies to the spiritual soul,... that which is the incarnated 'breath' of God. The person of form is born of flesh, and flesh is not of spirit, and unless one is born of spirit, they will not realize the Kingdom of Heaven.

However fwiw, if you want to believe God is a person, then go ahead, you can always change when and if it becomes appropriate.

 

[sojourner]

Fyi, nothing is amiss except your lack of understanding of the implication that if,.."God is the One that is All,...the transcendent Unity of all existence!!!", then it is logically is understood that God must be immanent in all existence.

Oh, it's not a lack of understanding. You're absolutely right in your last sentence. But what I didn't see in your post was any nod toward a God that only be spoken of in very intimate terms. Your language was all transcendent language. God is both, and must be spoken of as both.

 

[sojourner]

Ascension doesn't apply to the person, it applies to the spiritual soul,... that which is the incarnated 'breath' of God. The person of form is born of flesh, and flesh is not of spirit, and unless one is born of spirit, they will not realize the Kingdom of Heaven.

However fwiw, if you want to believe God is a person, then go ahead, you can always change when and if it becomes appropriate.

Here's where I think your train leaves the tracks. The person is particular, as God is particular. The human person is a whole being, as God is both Father, Son and Spirit. There is no real difference between matter, energy, or spirit. Form is immaterial here, because all "stuff" is of God. We can't hide from God. We don't "contain" the breath of God -- we are the breath of God.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Your language was all transcendent language.

God is both, and must be spoken of as both.

In your attempt to obscure your lack of understanding, you are compounding your ignorance.

Please explain how can language be transcendent, transcendence being a state of existence above and beyond the limits of material experience?


God is the transcendent unity of your dualistic conceptual perception of the divine Oneness made of two parts, transcendence and immanence. As noted in a previous post of mine that you quoted, the God that is described by mortal minds is not the Eternal God, it seems you do not abide by this wisdom and must speak of God as comprising of two fundamental parts, others who understand the underlying unity of God and the illusion of duality have no such compulsion to go so.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Here's where I think your train leaves the tracks. The person is particular, as God is particular. The human person is a whole being, as God is both Father, Son and Spirit. There is no real difference between matter, energy, or spirit. Form is immaterial here, because all "stuff" is of God. We can't hide from God. We don't "contain" the breath of God -- we are the breath of God.

It is just silly to claim a human person is a whole being, it's a temporary aggregate of mutable constituents and is an integral of the Whole which is God Absolute. To compare the part with the Whole, God, is equally silly. God can't be confined by any space, IT is infinite, how can the finite be compared to the infinite of which it is an integral?

 

[sojourner]

In your attempt to obscure your lack of understanding, you are compounding your ignorance.

Please explain how can language be transcendent, transcendence being a state of existence above and beyond the limits of material experience?


God is the transcendent unity of your dualistic conceptual perception of the divine Oneness made of two parts, transcendence and immanence. As noted in a previous post of mine that you quoted, the God that is described by mortal minds is not the Eternal God, it seems you do not abide by this wisdom and must speak of God as comprising of two fundamental parts, others who understand the underlying unity of God and the illusion of duality have no such compulsion to go so.

FYI, I don't conceptualize the Divine Oneness being "made of two parts." It isn't dualism. I think it's a little misleading to say that the God that is described is not the eternal God. To be certain, any language about God is metaphor, and is not definitive. But we have to have some way to talk about God, and the God we describe with metaphoric language is the God we understand to be transcendent.

 

[sojourner]

It is just silly to claim a human person is a whole being, it's a temporary aggregate of mutable constituents and is an integral of the Whole which is God Absolute. To compare the part with the Whole, God, is equally silly. God can't be confined by any space, IT is infinite, how can the finite be compared to the infinite of which it is an integral?

Well, I'd have to say that if humanity is the imago dei, then some sort of comparison is being drawn. Yes, we are partly a temporary aggregate of mutable constituents. But those constituents, as you say, are integral of the Whole. In that way, God is immanent, because God is embodied in those constituents.

We are whole in the sense that we are body, mind and spirit integrally. They cannot truly be separated, as you seem to suggest. No, God isn't confined by any space, but can be imaged within space, as the imago dei suggests.

How can the finite be compared to the infinite? Because energy, matter, spirit are all fundamentally the same "stuff." To suggest that matter is separable from spirit is jejune theology.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

FYI, I don't conceptualize the Divine Oneness being "made of two parts." It isn't dualism. I think it's a little misleading to say that the God that is described is not the eternal God. To be certain, any language about God is metaphor, and is not definitive. But we have to have some way to talk about God, and the God we describe with metaphoric language is the God we understand to be transcendent.

Sure, so long as there is a discussion about God going on, then logically it must be conceptual. But if this conceptual discussion is not recognized by one or more of the participants as such, then such a person may mistake their belief for truth and therefore remain in a deluded state of mind.

It all gets back to the mortal mind and its predisposition to perceive reality according to a subject - object (me and not-me) dichotomy, the resultant conceptual language used to describe indirectly the nature of the mortal perspective of reality referenced to relative finite time and space constraints obscures the direct apprehension of non-dual presence of pure Being.

A mind that is free from thought is the only state of mind that may realize directly the non-conceptual unity of God.