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God's freedom leads to cruelty?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Cacotopia, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. Cacotopia

    Cacotopia Let's go full Trottle

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    An interesting thought. Spurned from Freddom-eer/justice-eer thread.

    We are free to commit any action we want in this world, yet all actions have consequences. Which in turn regulate the kinds of actions we make. Laws in society I think further dampen the "action wheel" of people.


    But god, in the view of many a believer, created all and is free to do whatever without consequence unlike the rest of us mortals are bound to. Consequences temper actions. God has no such temperance in my opinion, god is free to commit whatever whenever and what ever god wants to do. Most people and animals learn from consequence. And may as a result develop empathy or apathy towards others in given situations. not god. Would then god be a cruel entity because it has never suffered for anything it has ever done?
     
  2. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    The Creator God revealed in the biblical scriptures is not free to violate His own character, which is holy, pure, just, and loving, therefore He cannot sin or be cruel and it is His own innate, character which controls His actions.

    things God cannot do
     
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  3. Frater Sisyphus

    Frater Sisyphus In The Circle Of Falsehood, Which Is Untrue

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    How is God cruel?
    Humans and animals are cruel if that's what you mean. We will commit the worst of things whether a God exists or not
     
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  4. Cacotopia

    Cacotopia Let's go full Trottle

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    Is god killing people merciful to you? Must be.

    I guess wiping out nearly all life on the planet isn't cruel to you, by your poor standards, Adolf Hitler must be a saint.
     
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  5. Cacotopia

    Cacotopia Let's go full Trottle

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    The god in the bible is revealed to be unknowable and incomprehensible, so anything the bible says about god is suspect. Any thing you read that talks about god in any way can not be trusted.
     
  6. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Those who believe in God, do so by starting with the belief that God can only do right and holy good things.

    So the better argument is to prove that we all do not deserve to be in this existential condition. And also prove that existence lacks any form of justice and divine rule.
    Even being sinners deserving of hell, if the plan is salvation, there should be a justice system in place to rule all living creatures.

    I would say many humans see themselves as under God's favor being believers. Thus they make of non believers that we all are evil, and in need of salvation. Depending on the religion, all non believers must conform or we are all eternal infidels.

    This type of generalization of non believers i see that as cruel judgment. I myself would not want to be guilty of judging non believers for the reason that they just might be worthwhile people who do not deserve doom. And also i am a non believer. And i know other non believers. And i know some religious people that will not make this judgment on non believers.

    At best it is a blind, fearful judgment.
     
    #6 osgart, Aug 10, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  7. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    With freedom comes responsibility. Being free to act as we choose means that we are then responsible for our chosen actions, not the "God" that bestows that freedom.
     
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  8. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    So "God"is not omnipotent.

    But then, what is "revealed" in the bible is
    a matter of how anyone chooses to interpret it.
     
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  9. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    There are a number of foundational assumptions in the OP that I don't agree with:
    • Humans are free to commit any action they want. I do not believe this. Even if I believed in free will (which I don't) it's readily apparent that human abilities are limited, both for the species as a whole and for particular individuals of that species. This would be the case even if somehow actions did not have consequences (which they always do).
    • Gods are free to do whatever they want free of consequence. I find it an impossibility for there to be action without consequence. That rule applies to everything, including the gods. The gods I worship are constrained by limits like anything else in the universe, and also bound by consequences.
    • Empathy and cruelty are concepts that meaningfully apply to the gods. I don't believe this either. There are exceptions, but for the most part, the gods do what they must in accord with their nature and labels like this are poetic anthropomorphisms. Storm Spirit is not being "cruel" because it cuts the power to your house when doing what it does. Sun Spirit is not being "empathetic" by shining on a day you are feeling depressed. Poeticism notwithstanding.
    • The gods revolve around humans. For some reason, many humans bear a level of arrogance that makes them think the entire universe, gods and all, should (or actually do) revolve around them. Anything that inconveniences them is then demonized (e.g., called "cruel" or "evil"), because how dare anything in the universe inconvenience a human, right? Yeah, no.
    In short, even if I believed the gods could do anything without consequence, I don't believe that translates to cruelty. I'm just not that anthropocentric. :sweat:
     
  10. Cacotopia

    Cacotopia Let's go full Trottle

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    pt 1) Free to do anything: I'm not saying marvel universe action, I'm saying if I wanted to kill my next door neighbor for no reason nothing is actually preventing me from going over there and doing it. You are limited by your means to complete a task, I can't walk into and airport and then force my way into the cockpit and then try to fly a plane. I don't know how to fly planes nor would I even get near the cockpit. There are limitations, BUT were are not limited to achieving what everyone else on the planet has already accomplished.

    Not everyone is born equal. fact. But you average joe schmo with a 120 IQ and no debilitating physical or mental condition can achieve what ever they want should they put themselves to task to accomplish it. If Jane does wants to learn 38 languages and works towards it, she can probably achieve it. Or learn to fly a helicopter, or fix cars or be a chemical engineer, or a brain surgeon, or be a serial killer or scam artist, thief. Whatever. DO you watch fail videos? Those are full of people doing activities they are in no way qualified to do them. Why, "I want to try it out" some pay with their lives for it. But still they tried.

    When I say people are free to do whatever they want I am also asking you to understand that these people are not living in a comic book or a cartoon, or are an action hero in some spy movie.

    pt 2&3) Gods in my view have the characteristics of what we already experience and know. When someone says a creator exists outside of existence and manipulates existence but is also eternal and unchanging, then I deduce that the deity is not subject to consequence due to their existence outside of reality. There are laws and forces that bind reality together. Gravity, momentum, inertia, heat conservation laws, thermodynamics, etc etc etc. How do humans/animals learn? I think they learn from emulation and consequence. fire is hot, don't touch it last time you got burned, lesson learned. and so on and so forth. Or the excuses made for god, in particular the christian god. God can't be judged because god makes the rules, and also doesn't have to follow them either.

    But** they also say that god is bound to behave in a specific manner. Wait how do they know? I don't know enough about shamanistic spirits and gods to make an argument for or against them. But based on my own experience if I do said activity that might be causing harm but I am never once corrected for it. I won't know it is wrong. And I may be perceived as cruel for my lack of empathy for who or what harm I am causing. I would be simply unaware of it. The absence of consequence I believe leads to this perception.

    pt 4) I'm not trying to be arrogant, but I also don't exactly have an example of another sentient species that I can converse with. The tone might have been different if we weren't alone,but have also met someone else in the universe ( I don't think we are alone, the uni's just too big to be alone)
     
  11. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    The fact that God is omnipotent is the very reason there are some things He cannot do anything that would violate or contradict His own eternal Being/Character of holiness, purity, love, justice, etc.

    "But God is infinite in power, so there must be nothing He can't do! Really? The very fact that He is infinite in power means He cannot fail. There is much else which finite beings do all the time but which the infinite, absolutely sovereign God cannot do because He is God: lie, cheat, steal, sin, be mistaken, etc. In fact, much else that God cannot do is vital for us to understand in meeting challenges from skeptics."

    "Is sovereignty and power the cure-all? Many Christians superficially think so. Yet there is much for which sovereignty and power are irrelevant. God acts not only sovereignly, but in love, grace, mercy, kindness, justice and truth. His sovereignty is exercised only in perfect harmony with all of His other attributes.

    There is much that God cannot do, not in spite of who He is, but because of who He is. Even Augustine, described as the first of the early so-called Church Fathers who "taught the absolute sovereignty of God," declared, "Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent."
    What a Sovereign God Cannot Do - A Newsletter Classic
     
  12. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    Whatevs. It is all just rationalizing contradictions to me.

    Knowing such detail about the nature of something
    that cannot be in any way detected or shown to exist at
    all seems bizarre to me.
     
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  13. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    That's fine and in a way makes perfect sense, since humans realistically couldn't know anything about a non-physical God/Creator...unless the information was revealed by this Being. I just believe the biblical scriptures are that revelation, along with the evidence of creation itself. I understand you don't, though.
     
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  14. Cacotopia

    Cacotopia Let's go full Trottle

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    The bible included with a circular reasoning back up plan of, god being unknowable, so if god shows up one day and we were wrong, we can't be wrong. Kewl.
     
  15. Frater Sisyphus

    Frater Sisyphus In The Circle Of Falsehood, Which Is Untrue

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    When did God kill people? I know of people killing people but not God.

    Goodwin's law sir.
     
  16. Frater Sisyphus

    Frater Sisyphus In The Circle Of Falsehood, Which Is Untrue

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    I think your problem lies in the following:

    1. 1st century "Christianity" is much different from interpretations and doctrines that came out of the later church
    2. Jewish theology is much different and more honest than Christian theology, regarding the same texts
    3. That Yahweh is the deity that got crowned over many others and heralded as the supreme being
    4. That Yahweh done several things that go against the logic you are conditioned to believe by the church, regardless of what kinds of terrible things people themselves did in those scriptures.
    5. That the Jewish and Christian scriptures aren't quite the newagey "peace and love" thing you want it to be, that it is very much routed in the worst of the human condition and rising out of it. You find it offensive that the Bible/Tanakh embraces the evil as it does the divine and holy.



    Btw, I'm not a Christian or a Jew.
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Sammasambuddha

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    Its a contradiction to say god has free will, choses to not harm, but has no ability at the same time. I bet god can lie, since he is, well, god; but, maybe humans put limits on god to feel comfortable with how they want to see him rather than what their scripture says about his nature both good and bad.

    Its hard for me to make a scenario in my head of something non-existant to be cruel. But, in concept, if jesus christ was in the mix, god became flesh to experience suffering since god cant experience it on his own. I dont think god knows the human condition when he cant suffer and jesus cant die.

    If there is no actual death and actual suffering, god being cruel or nice is really an illusion. How can god experience human love but not human pain. Why the split between the two when in human terms we learn from both pain and pleasure.

    Not cruel, just, well, how can I pust it not well-informed with human views because if you cant lie, steal, or cheat, no matter how one is incarnated, one isnt human. Flesh doesnt make one human.

    So, its off. At least many cruel humans makes sense in their cruelty even if its immoral (hit someone because they tried to hurt your child is logical even though not ideal) turn someone to salt for looking back at a burning city or floods or dictating conquering land by death of many isnt quite logical when trying to intepret supernatural by reason.

    Symbolism doesnt cut it, especially with human sacrifice when regardless the literalness of it, its human sacrifice. So, theres a lot of irony in it, really.
     
  18. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Are we 100% certain that there are 'Others' for God, the Seer?
     
  19. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    In religion, anyone is free to make up anything they like.
    And based on our religionists here, they all do.
     
  20. TheBannerofHomuraAkemi

    TheBannerofHomuraAkemi Active Member

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    If you learn how to punish God let me know, okay? Otherwise this is pointless.
     
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