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God's First Created Being

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
the previous attempts to .....not be lonely

spirits ...like unto Himself
but lacking the power of creation

Thats right angels did not have power of creation, But the angels could make things from the dust of the earth, thereby the angels forming man from the dust of the earth, But it took the power of God to give life to the man.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
but it doesn't stop you posting rubbish like that from Metzger. :rolleyes:

Who is he to critique our translation, when the Churches he represents, demonstrate complete bias towards their own interpretation of scripture and skew everything towards their trinity
1) Metzger is one of the leading bible scholars in the world (not that scholarship would mean much to you, by your own admission — more’s the pity).
2) Metzger doesn’t represent any particular church.
3) But you’re not at all biased toward your own interpretation, I guess..
4) you skew everything toward your own understanding of God.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
1) Metzger is one of the leading bible scholars in the world (not that scholarship would mean much to you, by your own admission — more’s the pity).

From what you have posted sojourner, it appears that he would disagree in large measure with your own spin on scripture. What does "scholarship" mean in that case? Should he conform to your beliefs or, if you hold him up as a leading Bible scholar, why do you hold different beliefs to him? This is what is so ridiculous about the way Christendom views its scholars......they don't have to agree with them. All are basically educated in the same institutions but then proceed to segregate themselves into the churches of "I think", headed by people such as yourself, promoting their own ideas. Show me those who thought they could disagree with Jesus who ever prospered spiritually.

2) Metzger doesn’t represent any particular church.

He represents Christendom, which is the same twisted rubbish that is fed to all those particular churches. There should not be denominations in Christianity. Do you understand that it contradicts what Paul said would identify true Christianity.....

1 Corinthians 1:10...."Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."
Does this describe Christendom? Seriously? :shrug:

3) But you’re not at all biased toward your own interpretation, I guess..

We are all biased towards our own interpretation of scripture. What we accept as truth tells God who we are and forms the basis for his judgment of us as individuals. We all stand or fall by this choice.

4) you skew everything toward your own understanding of God.

My understanding comes from a very careful search for truth and meaning in my younger days, and a critical analysis of what the Bible teaches overall, and who are sticking to what it says.....not skewing its words to prop up a distortion that we believe was created by the devil.....the "weeds" of Jesus' parable. The "wheat" do not resemble the "weeds" at all at the harvest time. Viva la difference!

In these last days, I see no other global body of Christians who fulfill the commands and teachings of the Christ more faithfully than JW's do. I have an understanding of the Bible that allows me to see how everything between Genesis and Revelation fits into the big picture....because it is one story, played out and gradually revealed over thousands of years. We believe that we are living in the time when the final parts of Bible prophesy are being played out right before our eyes.

How you see things is entirely up to you.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
From what you have posted sojourner, it appears that he would disagree in large measure with your own spin on scripture. What does "scholarship" mean in that case? Should he conform to your beliefs or, if you hold him up as a leading Bible scholar, why do you hold different beliefs to him? This is what is so ridiculous about the way Christendom views its scholars......they don't have to agree with them. All are basically educated in the same institutions but then proceed to segregate themselves into the churches of "I think", headed by people such as yourself, promoting their own ideas. Show me those who thought they could disagree with Jesus who ever prospered spiritually
Thinking people are both allowed and encouraged to challenge each other; irs how we expand our understanding. The Bible will legitimately support any number of interpretations. Heck! Even the Jerusalem church disagreed with Paul! What’s ridiculous is insisting on uniformity rather than unity in diversity.

There should not be denominations in Christianity
Just as there shouldn’t be different cultures, races, sexes, or pieces of fabric in a quilt? Get lucid!
Do you understand that it contradicts what Paul said would identify true Christianity
No. It doesnt.
Does this describe Christendom? Seriously
Division and diversity are two separate things. Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Baptists abide in diversity, maintaining different flavors while respecting each other. You, OTOH, display division in your posts, which certainly DOES go against what Paul was saying.

We are all biased towards our own interpretation of scripture. What we accept as truth tells God who we are and forms the basis for his judgment of us as individuals. We all stand or fall by this choice
It’s a long way down, my dear. If you admit that we all stand or fall by our choices, then choice is legitimate, and you have little grace to throw rocks at others, when you, yourself, are living in the same glass house of interpretational latitude.

My understanding comes from a very careful search for truth and meaning in my younger days, and a critical analysis of what the Bible teaches overall, and who are sticking to what it says.....not skewing its words to prop up a distortion that we believe was created by the devil.....the "weeds" of Jesus' parable. The "wheat" do not resemble the "weeds" at all at the harvest time. Viva la difference
Your analysis has not been shown here to be “critical” in the least. You have, indeed, twisted meaning through a sloppy, eisegetical approach — at least here. Your misuse of Matthew is an excellent case in point.

In these last days, I see no other global body of Christians who fulfill the commands and teachings of the Christ more faithfully than JW's do.
Of course not.

I have an understanding of the Bible that allows me to see how everything between Genesis and Revelation fits into the big picture....because it is one story, played out and gradually revealed over thousands of years. We believe that we are living in the time when the final parts of Bible prophesy are being played out right before our eyes.
Which is to say a limited and biased understanding, if you think that the Bible comprises one, cohesive story. It’s the same nonsense that prompts you to the misapprehension that Satan appears in the creation myths.
 

GODbeMERCIFULtoMEaSINNER

Member
It's My Birthday!
Who was it? And How was that being created?

Adam and Eve were not first. The angels were.
Jesus created everything in 6 days, the angels were probably created early in the week, because they rejoiced over Gods creation
Job 38:4-6 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Another name for Jesus is the Word of God, he is "the same yesterday and today and forever" and he created all things.

Revelation 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thinking people are both allowed and encouraged to challenge each other; irs how we expand our understanding.

Would you consider Adam and his wife to be "thinking people"? Well perhaps not since you don't accept the "creation myth". But did Jesus accept the creation account as a myth?
Jesus said...."Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” (Matthew 19:4-6 ESV) He was quoting the "creation myth" (Genesis 2:24)

The Bible will legitimately support any number of interpretations. Heck! Even the Jerusalem church disagreed with Paul! What’s ridiculous is insisting on uniformity rather than unity in diversity

"Legitimately support any number of interpretations?! You mean there are various versions of the truth depending on how you personally want to see it? :facepalm: Oh dear.

Just as there shouldn’t be different cultures, races, sexes, or pieces of fabric in a quilt? Get lucid!

I am not quite sure of what to make of your statements sojourner. I was speaking about illegitimate divisions in Christianity that cause great confusion for people, but you see that as something like "different cultures, races, sexes, or pieces of fabric in a quilt?"

Jesus taught one truth and so did his apostles. An apostasy was foretold by them to occur shortly after the last remaining apostle John, passed away. The apostles resisted this apostasy until the last of the Christian scriptures were penned. And "while men were sleeping" (meaning that whilst the apostles slept in death) the devil was free to unleash his apostate "weeds (sown in the very same field as the "wheat") and in the 4th century, Christendom was born. It has been a downhill slide for "Christianity" ever since. What a shamozzle!

No. It doesnt.

I'm afraid it does. Paul said..."Now I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, that there be no divisions among you, and that you be united with the same understanding and the same conviction."

Where is the agreement? Where is the unity of understanding if they all have different ideas? How many "divisions" does Christendom need before people just give up out of sheer frustration? Are Paul's word somehow hard to understand?

Division and diversity are two separate things. Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Baptists abide in diversity, maintaining different flavors while respecting each other. You, OTOH, display division in your posts, which certainly DOES go against what Paul was saying.

Oh, I get it....diversity is not division? All these churches teaching these different things are just 'flavors' of the same 'ice-cream'?
You think mutual respect is going to correct what is in error? Did Jesus accept the diversity of the Jewish religious leaders of his day? He condemned them all! How much more do you think he would condemn a system that so badly misrepresents his Father's identity...his role as Messiah and his truth about the Kingdom.

It’s a long way down, my dear. If you admit that we all stand or fall by our choices, then choice is legitimate, and you have little grace to throw rocks at others, when you, yourself, are living in the same glass house of interpretational latitude.

Wow....you don't seem to realize that the only choice God has ever given us is obey and live...or disobey and die. There is no "latitude"...no grey area....no "fence" to sit on.....there is just truth and lies, black and white good and evil.....and we better know the difference.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
May I begin by saying that I really appreciate your sincerity but I am rather puzzled by your naivety. For a man of 47 years, your approach to the Bible is almost child-like. May I ask if you are a Bible student or a Bible teacher? Or just a church member? Do you engage in much research online?

Jesus created everything in 6 days, the angels were probably created early in the week, because they rejoiced over Gods creation

I believe that the creative "days" could not have been literal 24 hour periods. The Bible does not disagree with science on this. The earth is ancient. These "days" were epochs of perhaps millions of years in length. There is no timeframe between Genesis 1:1 and the following verses that speak about God preparing the earth for habitation. That said, it leaves amble time for the angels to have been created even before the earth and the universe. Genesis 1:1 speaks about the "beginning" so we can assume that this is the beginning of his material creation, not the invisible things in heaven, like the angels.

At Colossians 1:15-16, speaking about Jesus, Paul says...."He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible.....all things have been created through Him and for Him."

You can see that the first of God's creations was his firstborn son....then God used his son to bring all other things into existence, both in heaven and in the material universe.

The word "day" in Hebrew (yohm) is not necessarily a 24 hour "day" but it can mean a period of undetermined length. In Genesis 2:4 it uses the same word for the entire creative period. When you dig a little deeper than your knowledge base provides, there is so much to learn about the details.

Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Yes, there were six clearly defined periods that had a beginning and an end, and a declaration at the end of each one, stating God's satisfaction with his accomplishments thus far. To hold onto a literal seven day scenario makes one appear to be a spiritual dinosaur.
Its wonderful to see science back up the Bible....but not to the point where it goes past what is provable. The Bible does not support evolution for example.....because evolution is not proven science....it is merely a theory about what they imagine might have happened if they rule out a Creator.

John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Again we have this word "beginning". The eternal God had no beginning, but he was not always a Creator. The "beginning" is the beginning of his creative acts. Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus....."The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God." So God began his creative works by bringing his firstborn son into existence. He is "the Beginning of the creation of God".

Another name for Jesus is the Word of God, he is "the same yesterday and today and forever" and he created all things.

Yes, Jesus is called the LOGOS (the Word) because he is God's spokesman, representing his Father to speak in his behalf.

Revelation 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

Yes, his blood paid the ransom to redeem humankind from slavery to sin and death.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
But did Jesus accept the creation account as a myth?
We don’t know for sure, but I’m willing to bet that he did, because that’s the kind of literature it is. The ancients were far, far more prone to utilize the mythic than we are.

"Legitimately support any number of interpretations?! You mean there are various versions of the truth depending on how you personally want to see it?
sure! To someone in New York, Missouri is “west.” To those in California, Missouri is “east.” Which is “truth?” They both are, depending on one’s perspective.

I am not quite sure of what to make of your statements sojourner. I was speaking about illegitimate divisions in Christianity that cause great confusion for people, but you see that as something like "different cultures, races, sexes, or pieces of fabric in a quilt?"
“Illegitimate?” You’ll have to lay out the criteria for “legitimacy” in this case. There has been diversity since the beginning. biblical record shows this, for Pete’s sake!

Jesus taught one truth and so did his apostles
Not so. Paul taught that one didn’t have to be circumcised to be faithful. The Jerusalem church taught differently. There was a YUGE argument over that one bit of difference of opinion. They finally compromised, just as every difference opinion since has been compromised, usually by church council.

The apostles resisted this apostasy until the last of the Christian scriptures were penned
This bit of fantasy is old and tired.

and in the 4th century, Christendom was born
Christendom was born long before then. All that happened in the 4th century was the recognition and legitimacy of the religion by the state.

Where is the agreement? Where is the unity of understanding if they all have different ideas
They all agree that Jesus is Christ. They all agree that one must be baptized. they all agree that communion should be shared. They all agree on the canon of scripture. They all agree on the primacy of scripture in formulating doctrine. they all agree with regard to the Trinity. They all agree that the church is the body’s of Christ. I could go on.

Oh, I get it....diversity is not division? All these churches teaching these different things are just 'flavors' of the same 'ice-cream'?
Correct. Diversity is not division. Essentially, each church is a different “flavor” of the same ice cream.

You think mutual respect is going to correct what is in error? Did Jesus accept the diversity of the Jewish religious leaders of his day?
this doesn’t have anything to do with the Judaic religious authorities. that disagreement was of a completely different magnitude.

How much more do you think he would condemn a system that so badly misrepresents his Father's identity...his role as Messiah and his truth about the Kingdom
I don’t see that any extant Christian system “badly represents God’s identity.” Except, of course, those who abuse the religion to cause harm to people.
Wow....you don't seem to realize that the only choice God has ever given us is obey and live...or disobey and die
I do realize what you’re saying. I’m saying that, because of what I read in the Bible, all human beings will eventually choose life.
 

Eariz

You hate what you love and love what you hate.
About that he only says,"I am that I am". It's my personal opinion that he became conscious at the Big Bang. For us that is an endless amount of time.

All "names" of the god of the Bible are not 'names': they are descriptions. The God of the Bible (as within Hindu traditions) is beyond our knowledge - we don't "know" the name of God because there isn't a name, full-stop. Language (at least in the history of earth) is a human thing.

Once yet get outside of the constraints of semantics within religious culture, you realize that God is the ultimate unknown but the thing that simply IS (outside of the paradox of rationality.) God is not a person, but the state of all things. (but it does go beyond just calling nature "God")
Wrap your head around that!

God is the aim of science and ironically, the thing atheists connect the most to while not realizing it.
If you can recognize that you are alive and that the material world exists, you have enough to realize that everything is in a state of God, beyond all qualities and dualities, it's all semantics and cultural baggage.

The Bible, the Tao Te Ching, Liber AL Vel Legis, the Quran, the satanic bible, the Upanishads or Rigveda, the back of your breakfast cereal, the God Delusion and really anything (name a movie, it doesn't matter how absurd or seemingly non-religious) - the reality of God is beyond the words we give to it (including the word "God" itself.) You could get the most anti-religious atheistic person in the world, listen to their words and see them ironically professing God - in spite that they feel they are disproving or ridiculing God. It's all semantics, all the state of words and symbols and their preconceived meanings.


For the latter of this I am discussing God itself, not any deities of any particular religion. It's all the same thing from the different cultural perspectives masked in different tradition and ritual but all equally as valid.
 
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Thats right angels did not have power of creation, But the angels could make things from the dust of the earth, thereby the angels forming man from the dust of the earth, But it took the power of God to give life to the man.

The Bible credits God alone with the entire process of creating man-

Genesis 2:7
[7]And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

-as well as everything else including angels.

John 1:3
[3]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So Genesis 1:26 can only refer to the Trinity.

1 John 5:7
[7]For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The Bible credits God alone with the entire process of creating man-

Genesis 2:7
[7]And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

-as well as everything else including angels.

John 1:3
[3]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So Genesis 1:26 can only refer to the Trinity.

1 John 5:7
[7]For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Well seeimg that your taking things out of it's context.
That of Genesis 2:7 has nothing to with the 6th day creation.
That of Genesis 2:7 is after The Lord created man on the 6th day.

If you had notice the 7th day stand in between the two events.
The first male and female being created on the 6th day ( Genesis 1:26-31. and then God rested on the 7th day ( Genesis 2:2, and then on day following the 7th day,
God formed man from the dust of the earth. Genesis 2:6-7.

So the 7th day stands in between the two events. So not to get them mix in together, as being one and the same events.

Let's for say I gave you a ball and I also have a ball.
But I put a marker in between the two, so we would know Who's, who. Ball.

So God put the 7th day as a marker in between the two of them, So there's no mixing together.

So on the 6th day, God created the first male and female.
Then God rested on the 7th day
And then on the day following ( 8th day) God formed man from the dust of the earth.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Adam and Eve already had free will or they would not have been able to make the choice to eat the fruit. The only thing they lacked from not eating it was the ability to suffer and die.
Not true. The name of the tree is tree of knowing good and bad, and it clearly states that once eaten they were only than able to differentiate right from wrong (or good and bad).
Romans 5:12
[12]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
God will never tell us not to do something when it is in our best interest to do it.
And God will never create something that gives us no benefit as well ;)
They did not have to know evil. It was enough to trust God who is all knowing.
If i trust one without a doubt, how do i know the truth? In order to know the truth you must have the not true experienced :)
You task is to understand the truth.
Than act upon it.
God promises that eventually, everyone will know the truth, no?
Proverbs 3:5-7
[5]Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
[6]In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
[7]Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
The rebellion of Adam was an attempt to make a god of himself - to believe he did not need God's protection - that he could be wiser than God and deal with evil on his own.
Where does it say so? The only thing detailed in the story is the snake tells them they will be Good and Bad knowing like God... not become gods.
והייתם, כאלוהים, יודעי, טוב ורע
 
Not true. The name of the tree is tree of knowing good and bad, and it clearly states that once eaten they were only than able to differentiate right from wrong (or good and bad).

It was not necessary to know evil in a perfect and sinless world. By eating the fruit they unleashed evil not only into the world but also into themselves. Ever since then people have been born with an inherent sin nature.

Jeremiah 17:9
[9]The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Psalms 51:5
[5]Behold, I was shapen in iniquity.

This changed something inside of them and it was not good.

It is only necessary to study for a task you intend to perform. A carpenter does not need to learn how to knit. It is not necessary to learn evil unless you intend to do evil.

Romans 16:19
[19]...I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

Proverbs 9:10
[10]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

It is not necessary to know a lie in order to know truth.

God is truth.

John 14:6
[6]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Psalms 31:5
[5]...Thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

John 16:13
[13]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...

God's word is truth.

John 17:17
[17]Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 8:31-32
[31]Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
[32]And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

God is the source of truth.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was only made that man might have free will. It was the ability to choose it that gave him his free will, not the action of choosing it which was the wrong choice.
 
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