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Featured God's First Created Being

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by osgart, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    LOL...but it doesn't stop you posting rubbish like that from Metzger. :rolleyes:

    Who is he to critique our translation, when the Churches he represents, demonstrate complete bias towards their own interpretation of scripture and skew everything towards their trinity. He speaks of the fundamental errors of Jehovah's Witnesses like he would know an error if it jumped up and bit him. o_O He is indoctrinated with Christendom's views, which makes his opinion null and void IMO.He is as biased in his views as he believes we are.

    Lets take his statements apart and really analyze what he is saying......lets critique the critique...

    "It is proposed, rather, to give consideration to one of the fundamental errors of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, namely, that which concerns the person of Jesus Christ. Today as of old, a proper response to the primary question, “What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he?” (Matt. 22:42), constitutes a veritable touchstone of historic Christianity. Certain other aberrations in Biblical understanding may doubtless be tolerated if one is, so to speak, turned in the right direction with regard to Christology. But if a sect’s basic orientation toward Jesus Christ be erroneous, it must be seriously doubted whether the name “Christian” can rightly be applied to such a system. (It will be observed that no judgment is here passed upon individual adherents to such a system, some of whom may be better than they have a right to be on the basis of their professed denial of central Biblical truths.)"

    So lets turn the tables here.....what if Christendom's version of who Christ is, is in error? What if it is they who are denying central Biblical truths? Then can the name "Christian" be rightly applied to them? Who says Christendom is correct in her understanding of what Christ taught? Jesus and his apostles foretold that an apostasy which was already "at work" before the apostles died would surface internally. (Acts 20:29-30; 2 Peter 2:1-3) Their restraining influence kept it at bay (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7) until the last of the Christian scriptures were penned....then there was nothing to stop the "weeds" from taking over. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)

    What in the history of the early church is proof that this apostasy took place just as it was prophesied? One only has to look at Roman Catholicism to see that the rot set in in the early centuries....the most unchristian behaviors were seen when corrupt men appointed by other corrupt men, abused their power, hunting down supposed heretics. They then tortured them to force confession and murdered anyone who dared to question their beliefs or practices. The tyranny of those times lasted for 1500 years.....until a Catholic scholar named Martin Luther challenged the church over a list of things that he considered needed the urgent attention of the church hierarchy. Bible study, prayer, and meditation helped him to gain a better understanding of how God views sinners......Luther recognized that God’s favor cannot be earned. Rather, it is granted through undeserved kindness to those exercising faith. (Romans 1:16; 3:23, 24, 28)

    It was then widely believed that after death, sinners had to undergo punishment for a period of time. However, it was said that this time could be shortened by indulgences granted on the pope’s authority in exchange for money. This led to a booming trade selling indulgences to the common people. Many viewed indulgences as a sort of insurance against future sins, buying their way out of punishment. Luther was indignant about the sale of indulgences. He knew that men cannot bargain with God for money. In the autumn of 1517, he wrote his famous 95 theses, accusing the church of financial, doctrinal, and religious abuse. Wanting to encourage a reform, not a rebellion, Luther sent copies of his theses to Archbishop Albert of Mainz and to several scholars. Many historians point to 1517 or thereabouts as the birth of the Reformation.

    But did the Reformation bring "Christianity" back to the church? Did it unify the beliefs of the people? Unfortunately, some very ingrained dogma had crept into the psyche of the church reformers.....immortality of the human soul.....a hell of eternal torment and the triune nature of God. ...these the reformers brought with them into the Protestant movement, contaminating Christianity even more as men sought to establish their own 'brands' of it....sectarianism ran amok and today there are literally thousands of sects all claiming to be Christians, yet holding different beliefs. But the one thing you will notice is that despite their differences, they all hold that core of Catholic dogma in common.

    "According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christ before his earthly life was a spirit-creature named Michael, the first of God’s creation, through whom God made the other created things. As a consequence of his birth on earth, which was not an incarnation, Jesus became a perfect human being, the equal of Adam prior to the Fall. In his death Jesus’ human nature, being sacrificed, was annihilated. As a reward for his sacrificial obedience God gave him a divine, spirit nature. Throughout his existence, therefore, Jesus Christ never was co-equal with God. He is not eternal, for there was a time when he was not. While he was on earth he was nothing more than a man, and therefore the atoning effect of his death can have no more significance than that of a perfect human being. Throughout there is an ill-concealed discontinuity between the pre-existent spirit creature, the earthly man Jesus, and the present spirit existence of Christ Jesus."

    According to the Bible, Jesus is a creation of his God and Father. The apostle Paul confirms this in Colossians 1:13-15. Jesus also confirmed it in his Revelation to John. (Revelation 3:14) Nowhere in scripture did Jesus ever claim equality with his God but the Bible does say that he came to represent his Father as a "mediator between God and men".

    To say that we believe that he was "nothing more than a man" is nonsense. He came from heaven to become a human in order to give his life to pay for the sins of Adam's children. That makes him way more than any human could ever be in this world. The law of God demanded equivalency..."an eye for an eye...tooth for a tooth....life for a life" So in order to atone for the perfect sinless life that Adam lost for his children, Jesus had to be born as a kinsman of Abraham's offspring. Being born to Mary gave him that status. Having God produce his human life made him sinless. The heavenly life of the pre-human Jesus was interrupted for a short time by his earthly sojourn, but his death accomplished what he was sent to do and his resurrection returned him to heaven with added bonuses for his faithful course. In heaven the God of Jesus is still his Father. (Revelation 3:12)
     
    #21 Deeje, Sep 20, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
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  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Concerning that old chestnut John 1:1 he says...."Far more pernicious in this same verse is the rendering, “… and the Word was a god,” with the following footnote: “‘A god.’ In contrast with ‘the God.’” It must be stated quite frankly that, if the Jehovah’s Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists. In view of the additional light which is available during this age of Grace, such a representation is even more reprehensible than were the heathenish, polytheistic errors into which ancient Israel was so prone to fall.

    Nice try. It is not we who worship three gods squeezed into one head. Trinitarian scholars point out that the title El·o·himʹ, as applied to the Creator, is in the plural number and literally means “Gods”. They claim that this is a proof of the teaching of a trinity in the Hebrew Scriptures, namely, that there are “three Persons” in one God. But their own argument backfires because, as they themselves point out, El·o·himʹ means “Gods”, and not “Persons”. So, to follow through with their own argument, the title El·o·himʹ would teach that there are two or more Gods in one, instead of “three Persons in one God”. Thus the trinitarians would be guilty of arguing that there is a multiplicity of gods, contrary to their insistence that there are not three Gods, but only one God.

    Right at the start in Genesis 1:1 it knocks the ground from under the trinity champions by saying: “The form of the title El·o·himʹ is plural, the plural of excellence or majesty and not to denote a multiple personality. The Greek LXX [Septuagint] renders El·o·himʹ as ho The·osʹ, showing that it means an individual ‘God’. Jesus is not and never was Almighty God. Jesus is not the Creator but the fabricator of the raw materials that God brought into existence.

    "In still another crucial verse the New World Translation has garbled the meaning of the original so as to avoid referring to Jesus Christ as God. In Titus 2:13 it reads, “We wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus.” This rendering, by separating “the great God” from “our Savior Christ Jesus,” overlooks a principle of Greek grammar which was detected and formulated in a rule by Granville Sharp in 1798."

    Perhaps a reference to Jude 25 might have solved the dilemma....

    "to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

    Or Acts 13:23..."From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus"

    So it appears as if the designation "savior" applies to both God and his Christ....one who sends a savior is also a savior. They don't have to be one and the same individual.

    Christ saved us....but who saved Jesus? Paul answers..."In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety."

    "The New World Translation, in harmony with its bold twisting of Col. 1:15-17 (considered above), is also in error at Rev. 3:14, where it makes the exalted Christ refer to himself as “the beginning of the creation by God.” The Greek text of this verse (ἡ αρχη της κτισεως του θεου) is far from saying that Christ was created by God, for the genitive case, του θεου, means “of God” and not “by God” (which would require the preposition ὑπο). Actually the word αρχη, translated “beginning,” carries with it the Pauline idea expressed in Col. 1:15-18, and signifies that Christ is the origin, or primary source, of God’s creation (compare also John 1:3, “Apart from him not even one thing came into existence”)."

    According to John 1:18 it says "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." The word "monogenes" is used here for "only begotten" and it is used elsewhere in scripture to denote an "only child".
    The pre-human Jesus in heaven was "begotten" by God, making him a creation of his Father. Someone who is begotten needs a begetter. That is not rocket science is it? Since "No one has seen God at any time" it is fair to say that Jesus is not God because thousands of people saw Jesus. He is an only begotten "god" because of his divine origin and authority.

    According to Proverbs 8:30-31 the prehuman Jesus was at his Father's side as a "Master Worker" in the creation of all things.....but this "only begotten son" was created first. He was the only "son" directly created by his God. Yet the Bible indicates that God has many "sons"....none are like Jesus.
     
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  3. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    It was the Most Great Spirit that is all the Messengers in all the worlds of God. This is the Primal Will, the I Am, The Alpha and Omega. This is the Spirit that is Christ.

    It has now been explained in this way;

    "Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification....."

    Continued here - Tablet of the Universe

    It is from This Primal Will that the Holy Spirit radiates, set creation in order and gives us all life.

    Regards Tony
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Adam and Eve were not first, The angels were and us before God created this body of flesh and blood from the dust of the earth.
    God formed the body from the dust of the earth and then God put us into the body and then the body became a living being.
    Thereby you have mankind, human beings.

    Jeremiah 1:4-5---"Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

    5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations"

    Therefore we were with God, before we came to be in this body of flesh and blood.
     
  5. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Light is the first creation. God spoke and voila.
     
  6. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but Proverbs 8: if looked at in context is talking about wisdom being there.

    Isaiah 44:24 says, I am YHWH that maketh all things: that stretcheth forth the heavens alone: that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.

    Also look at Isaiah 45:12, and verse 18, and there are many others.
     
  7. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't God first have to create Himself?
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find since God is 'THE' Creator then He is the un-created God.
    As Psalms 90:2 says that God is from everlasting. That means: God had No beginning.
    Where does the first number start or end ?
    For each number we can count we can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever everlastingly.
    Unlike God, the pre-human heavenly Jesus was God's first creation ( Rev. 3:14 B; Col. 1:15 )
    So, only God was before the beginning, and Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
     
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  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Yeah? I thought it was stromatolites. Hehe.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I don't think anyone would say Proverbs 8 was Not talking about wisdom, but when we continue to read to verse 22 the one speaking is said to be created, and in Proverbs 8:31 it mentions....'and my delights were with the sons of men.' Since wisdom is Not a person then literal wisdom could Not find delight in the sons of men.
    I find at Proverbs 30:4 B it asks us the question '............ what is his name, and what is his son's name ?..........
    Please also notice 1 Corinthians 1:24 B,1 Corinthians 1:30 because it says that Christ the ' power of God' and the 'wisdom of God '.
     
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  11. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by before the beginning?
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Before anything was created, that was ' before the beginning ' of creation. The God of the Bible is Un-created - Rev. 4:11.
    So, only God existed before anything else.
     
  13. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    About that he only says,"I am that I am". It's my personal opinion that he became conscious at the Big Bang. For us that is an endless amount of time.
     
  14. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Nope. God said, "I have a Divine Idea!"

    "I will make a universe so subtle that it will bring forth
    wonders of every sort, with no need for me to meddle
    and tweak and coax it along like a British sports car!"

    "I've grander things to do than to play with beginner
    organic chemistry."


    Seriously, what kind of "god" could not do that?

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    God is outside of Time and Creation, unknowable in essence.

    The 'Primal Will', the 'I Am' is the rays from the Sun and this is the Most Great Spirit of all the Messengers. All creation radiates and has life from this Primal Will, the Word of God.

    The link I posted above is that explanation of Creation. Regards Tony
     
  16. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Proverbs 8:22 says YHWH possessed wisdom. Proverbs 8:31 doesn't say wisdom found delight in the sons of men.

    Not sure why you are even referencing the other verses in regards to what was said.

    It is clear from the verses I gave previously that YHWH created things alone and by himself. Isaiah 44:24 , Isaiah 42:5 , Isaiah 40:28 , Isaiah 45:12,18 , and many more. And he had wisdom when he did it.
     
    #36 TrueBeliever37, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  17. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Well, it can happen to experience some confusion when you wake up, especially after such a mighty bang.

    And to say I am what I am, is something in line with some confusional state. I mean, how can someone be what he is not?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  18. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Always something else...if no primordial substance then wisdom. Can a self-made God do it alone?

    So I imagine the Goddess' effort to get back in the game in the form of a poetically personified Wisdom is a bit controversial to many.
     
  19. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    What??? He's not self made - he has always existed.
     
  20. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    Though the Word who became Christ was with the Father "in the beginning", not much is said about their pre-Earth history together.
    For instance... why is the Father the Father -why is he in authority over the Son, why are their two who are one, etc.
    While perhaps not "created", the Father has been causing the Son to undergo a process which makes him more suited for/better at his intended role
    -in addition to how it benefits us.
    Christ is called "the firstborn of many brethren" -having lived as a human and being resurrected -as we will be when we see him as he is and are made like him, but finding out what happened beforehand in the very, very beginning is something that will likely have to wait until we are resurrected.
     
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