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God's Curse in Genesis

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Pah, Aug 25, 2004.

  1. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    From Genesis 3:14-19, NIV


    There has been some discussion in another thread that death came to humakind through the curse God gave Adam for eating of the fruiut of the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. It has been alledged that the "cursing of the ground" is the venue.

    The context of the phrase "Cursed is the ground because of you" does not show that. Instead, it shows that weeds would make humankind's labors more difficult.

    I can see nowhere else where death is part of the curse. Indeed, the span of humankind's life is mentioned. It not that comparable and equivalent to the the rest of living animals and plants. They, except for the serpent, are not cursed and we know that that have live terminated by death. Plants and animals die within a live span according to kind.

    Death was not part of the curse.

    -pah-
     
  2. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    since this is your thread, i would like ask if you're going to exclude other parts of the 'bible'?i know you'd like nothing other than to turn believers away from their faith, and limiting the word which it is based on to 1/66 of it's actual contents would do nothing but help your cause.

    not?

    "..for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.""

    Ignorance is bliss


    --S
     
  3. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Pah,
    You are right, death is not a part of the curse. "On the day you eat of it you shall die".
    Already a promise.
    Cursed the ground/adamah, Adam is from the adamah/ground.
    Adam was like God, he was immortal, had he been obedient, he would be alive today.
     
  4. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    How do you know, Pah, would like nothing better than to turn believers away from their faith?
    I think you need to read again his posts.
     
  5. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    1-i answer question scripturally(romans)
    2-he takes a cheap(hollow) shot at romans validity
    3-he lends no credability to the 'bible' what so ever.he makes points i'm very sure he already knows the answer to, just to see if it will be given, but perhaps i'm giving him too much credit.how do you think things would be if we lent that much credability to his god a.k.a. science?

    more?


    --S
     
  6. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Of course not, bring any contradicting biblical verse to the debate.

    But one thing I will not tolerate as a member of ReligiousForums is the disrespetctful innuendo and, as a moderator, will enforce the rule that covers it. You know nothing of my mind and my likes and my purpose. Keep your comments of that nature to yourself.



    Please be more specific

    Since ignorance is only the state of not knowing and not indictative of capability, I do not take this personally. But even so, I don't agree with you completely about it being bliss.

    -pah-
     
  7. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Good to have you join us, Ronald.

    Your opinion makes three. But I think that death is implicit in creating life. Neither the curse nor that promise is given to other living things. Death of plants and animals must, in my mind, have been introduced previous to both. Why would it not have been so for humankind?

    At least we agree that it is not present in the curse.

    -pah-
     
  8. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Helpme,
    You are flying off the handle, when you are full of poop!
    Only his religion and the signature, are you reacting to. Pardon my english, but you sound just like a Christian! Judgemental!
     
  9. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    Ro6:23
    ...For the wages of sin is death...

    Ro5:12
    ...It was through one man [Adam] that sin entered the world, and through sin death...

    i believe you would guess that may be percieved as offensive as my assumption of your purpose?

    v19—...for dust you are
    and to dust you will return...

    this is a simple reference to death, there are other times in the bible where returning to dust is likened to death(ecc12:7?).

    this is an assumption, you could just as well believe they were immortal before the ground of which they live on was cursed.
    there inlay the problem?since scripture does not state one or the other way, it is best, for a believer, do have a mind open to the possibilty of either.this fact also really nullyfies it's being or becoming a serious issue(besides the other, which is that...how central to any doctorine or practice is this particular subject?).given this, it is really trivial.

    was i in need of your judgement?can you spot the irony in these 8 words?

    well it's been a while so, but anyway...elaborate/clarify?

    --S
     
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Because Adam was created in the image of God. In my mind nothing died before man disobeyed, then the promise of death was put in place by man.
    Then Elohim had to recreate perfect man again in the form of Yeshua to redeem mankind from sin, at the end of this age we find death and the tempter thrown into the lake of fire, then mankind will once again be like him. Immortal/Perfect in His Image.
    Nothing died in the Garden, upon restoration it will be the same.
    Shalom Chaver
     
  11. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Paul makes it abundantly clear in Romans 6: 1-6 that the death he speaks of is the death to sin and again in Romans 6 11. Paul speaks of Christ's death as the absolution of sin and thus the abolishment of spiritual death. I don't see in your quotes out of context that death of the body is being addressed in Romans.


    • Genesis 13:16 and 28:14, Numbers 23:10, 2 Chronicles1:9 where number of dust is the symbol for a multitude
    • Genesis 18:27 where the living Abraham speaks of himself as dust
    • Exodus 8:16 and 9:9 where dust is the imputus of Eygpt's plagues
    • Numbers 5:17 where dust is the bitter agent in a test for an unfaithful wife
    • Joshua 7:6 where dust is the symbol for shame
    • et cetera, et cetera
    Yeah, dust has many symbolic meanings. But what you have not done is shown that the symbol of death is an element of the curse. The cursed ground is the cause for Adam's hard labor and source of food and does not add to your agruement. Your point is shown to be extraneous to the debate by the first part of verse 19 "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground," You, Adam, will labor hard and eat from the fruit of your labor till the end of your life span. Where is the curse of physical death?

    -pah-
     
  12. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Well, that point is worthy of consideration. The only thing that sticks in my craw is that animals (except for the serpent) were not included in the curse nor the plants, for that matter. But I'll not push that - especially from a personal perspective.

    Perhaps nothing died in the garden because they seem to have been there for a short period of time. Then, again, the creation story seems to be disconnected from our concept of time.

    -pah-
     
  13. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    ..until you return to the ground..

    unless you think it means he was flying or something?


    --S
     
  14. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Please, as requested, show that this is an element of the curse.

    -pah-
     
  15. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    To adam it was said: Cursed is the ground because of you;through painful toil you will eat of it...until you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;for dust you are and to dust you will return."

    ??


    --S
     
  16. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Matthew 7:3: And why beholdest thou the mote[small fault] that is in thy brother's eye[spiritual understanding] but considerest not the beam[total tripout] that is in thine own eye[spiritual understanding] or how wilt though say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote[small fault] out of thine eye[spiritual understanding]; and, behold, a beam[total tripout] is in thine own eye[spiritual understanding]?

    Really, what's the point, other then our entertainment, of this argument?
     
  17. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    1/2these aren't really variations, these are referring to man/men as dust, man is often likened to dust.because from it he was made, how advanced was it to know that the smallest little tiny things that make up dust, are the same that make up us?when did science figure this out?
    3/4=actual dust
    and 5, well i have no response!jj, it's actual dust too.

    --S
     
  18. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    It (the cursed ground) will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.

    19 With knife and fork
    you will eat your food (thorns and thistles)
    until the cows come home
    and offer milk and meat.

    The curse is the same as the biblical version - it did not change because adverbial phrases were altered.

    That is a method of explaination and is in fact the answer. Parroting the scripture does nothing.to explain.

    -pah-
     
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