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God's Chosen?

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi dear jewscout,

Actually i have some questions reagrding to your quotes below and i hope that you will help me to undersatnd it more.

jewscout said:
Gen. 12:1-3
Now HaShem said unto Abram: 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee.
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing.
And I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse; and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'
one more verse ...

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Abraham had not any child when he was 75 years old and this verse might go for the seed of Ishamel and isaac as well.

Gen. 17:19
And G-d said: ''Nay, but Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.
and we add here too one more ...

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


Exodus 2:24-25
And G-d heard their groaning, and G-d remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
And G-d saw the children of Israel, and G-d took cognizance of them.
So what is so special about this verse regarding to the sons of Israel?

cog·ni·zance (kŏg'nĭ-zəns)
pron.gif

n.
  1. Conscious knowledge or recognition; awareness.
  2. The range of what one can know or understand.
  3. Observance; notice: We will take cognizance of your objections at the proper time.
  4. Law. Acknowledgment, recognition, or jurisdiction; the assumption of jurisdiction in a case.
  5. Heraldry. A crest or badge worn to distinguish the bearer.
Deut. 4:20

But you hath HaShem taken and brought forth out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be unto Him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day
Did a people of inheritance meant God's chosen?

Deut. 4:36-37
Out of heaven He made thee to hear His voice, that He might instruct thee; and upon earth He made thee to see His great fire; and thou didst hear His words out of the midst of the fire.
And because He loved thy fathers, and chose their seed after them, and brought thee out with His presence, with His great power, out of Egypt,
Can you explain for me please what is the point in this verse?


Thank you,

Peace ... :)
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
i think your first statement Truth:
one more verse ...

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Abraham had not any child when he was 75 years old and this verse might go for the seed of Ishamel and isaac as well.
is answered by the Gen. 17:19 verse where G-d specifies the covenant through the bloodline of Isaac, not ishmael. The covenant is that of the Torah and the giving of the land of Israel. But, as you have pointed out, G-d did make a promise to establish Ishmael as a great kingdom, which islam has essentially become spanning the globe. This however does not take away from Israel as being G-d's chosen people in reference to the giving of the Torah at Sinai or the Land of Israel.
Remember that Judaism teaches that the Non-jew is bound by a covenant between G-d and Noah.

So what is so special about this verse regarding to the sons of Israel?
it is again to illustrate the unique covenant that G-d made w/ the nation of Israel through their forefathers.

Did a people of inheritance meant God's chosen?
inheritance meaning the Torah and Eretz Yisrael

Can you explain for me please what is the point in this verse?
ok
Deut. 4:36-37
Out of heaven He made thee to hear His voice, that He might instruct thee; and upon earth He made thee to see His great fire; and thou didst hear His words out of the midst of the fire.
And because He loved thy fathers, and chose their seed after them, and brought thee out with His presence, with His great power, out of Egypt,

this is again reaffirming the covenant between G-d and the Nation of Israel. G-d chose to give the land and the Torah to the decendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
jewscout said:
i think your first statement Truth:

is answered by the Gen. 17:19 verse where G-d specifies the covenant through the bloodline of Isaac, not ishmael. The covenant is that of the Torah and the giving of the land of Israel.
Can you please provide me with verses that shows the order of God for sons of Israel to have the land of Israel?

But, as you have pointed out, G-d did make a promise to establish Ishmael as a great kingdom, which islam has essentially become spanning the globe. This however does not take away from Israel as being G-d's chosen people in reference to the giving of the Torah at Sinai or the Land of Israel.
Do you mean here the current Israel "the country" or the sons of Israel?

BTW, Do the land of Israel supposed to belong to the Jewish in general or to the sons of Israel only from the seed of Prophet Jacob "peace be upon him"?


Thank you .. :)
 

may

Well-Known Member
Radar said:
Which god is doing the choosing? Am I still chosen if I don't choose him? It's all up for interpretation. I don't think it is knowable and there will be many claims of the faithful. Where I am happy not knowing and not caring. I am sure if there is a god or gods then they will choose and none of us will know until that happens anyone who thinks otherwise is just speculating.

"Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you."—JAMES 4:8

This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ ..... john 17;3 so who is the true God psalm 83;18 tells us



That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,




You alone are the Most High over all the earth...PSALM 83;18( KJV)

 

may

Well-Known Member
michel said:
Nice post; good points.:)



I would say that God hates no one; he may despair at times by our slowness to learn.......

"God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him."—ACTS 10:34, 35.

 

may

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
Many people seem to believe that America is a special nation to God, and that Americans are in some sense God's chosen people. Furthermore, they believe this accounts for America's importance in the world. What are your views of this notion? Does it have any merit? Or is it poppycock? What do you think?

"God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him."—ACTS 10:34, 35

Despite the lack of racial harmony in various parts of the world, however, the impartial God, Jehovah, foretold the bringing of honesthearted people of all races and nations into remarkable international unity. By divine inspiration, the apostle John saw "a huge number, impossible to count, of people from every nation, race, tribe and language; they were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb," praising Jehovah. (Revelation 7:9, The Jerusalem Bible) This prophecy is already in course of fulfillment

 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Sunstone said:
Many people seem to believe that America is a special nation to God, and that Americans are in some sense God's chosen people. Furthermore, they believe this accounts for America's importance in the world. What are your views of this notion? Does it have any merit? Or is it poppycock? What do you think?
I have only heard this concept espoused by "religious nuts". It is very dangerous for any group to consider themselves to be "chosen by a unverifiable god". Period.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Radar said:
Which god is doing the choosing? Am I still chosen if I don't choose him? It's all up for interpretation. I don't think it is knowable and there will be many claims of the faithful. Where I am happy not knowing and not caring. I am sure if there is a god or gods then they will choose and none of us will know until that happens anyone who thinks otherwise is just speculating.
I agree 100%

michel said:
Think what you like, but I believe that the day you die, you'll be very happy to discover that God exists, and that he'll welcome you.
Sorry Michel, I think you are being a tiny bit presumptuous. I will have to remember to flit by and ask you what you think once we are both there. I suspect we shall be quite amused at our current thinking.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
The Truth said:
Can you please provide me with verses that shows the order of God for sons of Israel to have the land of Israel?
Deut. 33 list the blessing on the tribes of Israel and the land in which they will inhabit.

Deut. 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; to love HaShem thy G-d, to hearken to His voice, and to cleave unto Him; for that is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which HaShem swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Deut. 27:2-3
And it shall be on the day when ye shall pass over the Jordan unto the land which HaShem thy G-d giveth thee, that thou shalt set thee up great stones, and plaster them with plaster. And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over; that thou mayest go in unto the land which HaShem thy G-d giveth thee, a land flowing with milk and honey, as HaShem, the G-d of thy fathers, hath promised thee.
Exodus 3:8
and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite. Gen. 35:10-12And G-d said unto him: 'Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name'; and He called his name Israel. And G-d said unto him: 'I am G-d Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;and the land which I gave unto Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.'
The Truth said:
Do you mean here the current Israel "the country" or the sons of Israel?

the Children of Israel i am refering to in that quote, meaning the Jewish people


The Truth said:
BTW, Do the land of Israel supposed to belong to the Jewish in general or to the sons of Israel only from the seed of Prophet Jacob "peace be upon him"?

it belongs to the Jewish people, who are of the tribe of Judah, of the Nation of Israel
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
YmirGF said:
I agree 100%


Sorry Michel, I think you are being a tiny bit presumptuous. I will have to remember to flit by and ask you what you think once we are both there. I suspect we shall be quite amused at our current thinking.
If I am right, you will; if you are, we will be just dust, so you won't get your chance to say "I told you so!" So, heads I win, tails you lose!:D
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
michel said:
If I am right, you will; if you are, we will be just dust, so you won't get your chance to say "I told you so!" So, heads I win, tails you lose!:D

*Reaches out and deftly snatches the coin in mid toss*

Haha. Amusing, yes, but not what I meant at all.
I insist we will survive our physical deaths. God simply does not enter the equation in my mind. What I am saying is, you will meet whatever you think you will meet upon your death. I was intending my comment to be quite light hearted and not as an attack per se.

Again, I think it is highly presumptuous for folks to think that they are so important that God would personally greet them, like a prodigal son returning home being greeted by his father. Strangely I do not feel important enough to warrant such a divine intervention, and firmly believe it is expecting a lot. I might be inclined to go along with being met by a low level representative of God... but not the Big Kahuna himself.

Again, I did not mean to imply YOU are presumptuous, but rather the idea itself is rather presumptuous. Please forgive any slight that was not intended. IF only we could say exactly what we intend, ALL the time. LOL.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
jewscout said:
this is again reaffirming the covenant between G-d and the Nation of Israel. G-d chose to give the land and the Torah to the decendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
What if there are other people got a covennant with God rather than sons of Israel?

Whould they be God chosen like the Jewish?

Quran is the last holy book of God so Allah said:

[12] Allah did aforetime take a Covenant, from the children of Israel, and We appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular Prayers, practise regular Charity, believe in My Messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path of rectitude.


[13] But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them - barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

[14] From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a Covenant, but they forgot a good part of the Message that was sent them: so We estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

[15] O People of the Book! there hath come to you Our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book.

[16] Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His Will, unto the light, guideth them to a Path that is Straight.

[17] In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Al-Masih the son of Maryam. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His Will were to destroy Al-Masih the son of Maryam, his mother, and all, everyone that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."


[18] (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and His beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men, of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)."




Peace ... :)
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
The Truth said:
What if there are other people got a covennant with God rather than sons of Israel?
in Judaism one can look at the Noahidic Laws. It is a guideline for the other nations that they may live good and righteous lives in the way that HaShem had planned.
But the covenant of the land of Eretz Yisrael and the Torah are unique to the Children of Israel alone.
This is, of course, the view of traditional Judaism (and most other sects of Judaism as well if i am not mistaken)

The Truth said:
Whould they be God chosen like the Jewish?
no but do not make the mistake that the nation of Israel was chosen because they were or are better than any other people, they are not and even HaShem says so.
it's simply apples and oranges

The Truth said:
Quran is the last holy book of God so Allah said:
while G-d may have appeared to Muhammed, i do not believe that the Torah or the covenant between G-d and the Jewish people is in any way invalidated or wrong.
Deut. 13:1
All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

respectfully, The Truth, on this we will have to simply disagree.
 

zron

Member
I have to agree with Cardero.
How can anyone in their "right" mind think that a/the God be narrowed down to one little sect.
 

may

Well-Known Member
zron said:
I have to agree with Cardero.
How can anyone in their "right" mind think that a/the God be narrowed down to one little sect.

In his famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13, 14) The Bible explicitly states that there is "one faith." (Ephesians 4:5) Clearly, many who are on the "broad" road have a religion. But they do not have the "one faith." Since there is only one true form of worship, those who desire to find that true faith will have to seek it out.

 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
Many people seem to believe that America is a special nation to God, and that Americans are in some sense God's chosen people. Furthermore, they believe this accounts for America's importance in the world. What are your views of this notion? Does it have any merit? Or is it poppycock? What do you think?
It's poppycock, I'm part of G-d's chosen people.
 

Ulver

Active Member
In answering the original question as to some Americans thinking their God's select, there's only one word needed to describe it. NATIONALISM. you can see it in America and you can see it in places like Iran & Israel. Also, not forget a certain well known political movement that forever changed history that had its origins in Austrian man with a unique mustache. Nationalists will always state they have God or the Gods on their side and that everyone else is Godless. It makes people view foreigners as monsters and makes it easier to kill others.

dawny0826 said:
No one in America is forced to believe any which way religiously. It's a free nation. AND...further...the separation between church and state continues to drift wider and wider...I don't really see the 10 commandments enforced in this day and age as much as I see them being removed (both literally and figurately, speaking).

That doesn't change the fact that our forefathers WERE men of GOD and DID found our country on Godly principles. One Nation Under GOD.

Anyhoo...to previous poster...I'll be back later with scripture. )

You seem to exclude the view that quite a few have that the founders were either Deists or even Masons. Their theological beleifs would therefore be rather different from mainstream christianity then and certainly from what we call christianity now. check here: http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

michel said:
Thinking more along the lines of 'the meek shall inherit the Earth', are not the Jews the historically recognized punchbag of every other nation ?

Mike182 said:
ah yes, a good point, however, every religion has been pursecuted throughout history

Yes, but the Jews have been picked on more then any other and history shows that pretty clearly. Egypt and the Holocaust are only parts of that long history.

may said:

In his famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13, 14) The Bible explicitly states that there is "one faith." (Ephesians 4:5) Clearly, many who are on the "broad" road have a religion. But they do not have the "one faith." Since there is only one true form of worship, those who desire to find that true faith will have to seek it out.


How about those of us who hold the same opinion that a lot of Muslims do, which is that the Bible has been for centuries tainted with editing from men who had no contact with jesus let alone the original writers of the gospels and other books in the Bible. Thank "God" that the Nag Hammadi Library survived the cruel fate of time & we can see that there were other books and traditions outside of what became the cannon of the Bible when it was put together by the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Also thank "God" for the Eastern Orthodox Church surviving and keeping alive a tradition different from what survived the theological wars in Europe and then later became what was assumed as "Truth".


NP: Bathory- Blood Fire Death
 

may

Well-Known Member
Ulver said:
How about those of us who hold the same opinion that a lot of Muslims do, which is that the Bible has been for centuries tainted with editing from men who had no contact with jesus let alone the original writers of the gospels and other books in the Bible.


NP: Bathory- Blood Fire Death
yes i agree with that, that is why some have cast off the errors and got back to the original inspired words of God , and they are persecuted by the mainstream religion of christendom for doing that , they do not want the original thoughts of God to be made known, why? because it shows up their lies, they do not like translations such as the NWT because it gets back to the origanal thoughts of God . so you are right ,for centuries the translations have been full of errors , but in these last days Jehovah God is making sure that his true words are being made known . but the mainstream of christendom do not like it and try to stamp it out, but true knowledge has become abundant in these last days and that includes the revealing of prophecy and accurate translations
And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant ... daniel 12;4 humble bible students have roved around the pages of Gods word and it is all being revealed in these last days

And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand ...daniel 12;9-10



 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
YmirGF said:
I think it is highly presumptuous for folks to think that they are so important that God would personally greet them, like a prodigal son returning home being greeted by his father. Strangely I do not feel important enough to warrant such a divine intervention, and firmly believe it is expecting a lot. I might be inclined to go along with being met by a low level representative of God. not the Big Kahuna himself.
And why not? God is love, and I have no doubt that God's love will embrace me upon entering heaven. :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
jewscout said:
in Judaism one can look at the Noahidic Laws. It is a guideline for the other nations that they may live good and righteous lives in the way that HaShem had planned.
Why not that Abrahamic laws and monotheism?

while G-d may have appeared to Muhammed,
No, not yet .. God didn't appear to any human beings in this life according to Islam teaching whether to Mohammed or anyone else but it will be different in the hereafter.
the angel gabriel is the one who was recieving the message from God to deliver it to Mohammed verbally by gabriel himself.

God did speak to Moses but he couldn't see God even though Moses asked for it because a human being will definitely not be able to stand in front of the greatness of God appearnce.

even we can't see the sun by our own eyes and how that will be to see the creator of the sun and everything in the universe.


i do not believe that the Torah or the covenant between G-d and the Jewish people is in any way invalidated or wrong.

Deut. 13:1
All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
That means all what God command the Jewish must be done or otherwise things may happen.

What if someone or a group of people didn't observe what God command them?

It's impossible for things to change if people didn't change by themselves by a way or another but if they did change so God may curse them or punish them "I don't mean the Jewish here but in general".

respectfully, The Truth, on this we will have to simply disagree.
Dear respectable jewscout,

I have no problem to disagree with you too and the same time you don't have to agree to all what i say but we can discuss about it in case you are concerned.
 
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