Goddess of reason

[Spiderman]

"In the cathedral a shrine was erected in honor of Reason and Liberty. In front of the choir a sacred mountain was constructed, surmounted by a small Greek temple in honor of Philosophy.

A young opera singer, whose name remains uncertain, posed as Liberty and was dubbed "Goddess of Reason." A flame, symbolic of truth, burned on an altar, while white-clad young girls, wearing tricolored sashes representative of allegiance to the Republic, carried torches up and down the sacred mountain. Meanwhile the congregation sang AndréChenier's hymn: "Come, Holy Liberty, dwell in this temple; become the Goddess of the French people."

The temples of Reason recognized the Supreme Being; others venerated Brutus or Jean Marat. The revolutionary extremists, who were trying to dechristianize the country, claimed that Christianity was too otherworldly to oppose tyranny and was nearing extinction. They hoped to speed the process with the new cult.

Reason, Cult of Goddess of | Encyclopedia.com

I find that interesting. Is it a form of worship?

 

[Craig Sedok]

Synopsis. The only thing going is the flame.

 

[Dragonslayer]

"In the cathedral a shrine was erected in honor of Reason and Liberty. In front of the choir a sacred mountain was constructed, surmounted by a small Greek temple in honor of Philosophy.

A young opera singer, whose name remains uncertain, posed as Liberty and was dubbed "Goddess of Reason." A flame, symbolic of truth, burned on an altar, while white-clad young girls, wearing tricolored sashes representative of allegiance to the Republic, carried torches up and down the sacred mountain. Meanwhile the congregation sang AndréChenier's hymn: "Come, Holy Liberty, dwell in this temple; become the Goddess of the French people."

The temples of Reason recognized the Supreme Being; others venerated Brutus or Jean Marat. The revolutionary extremists, who were trying to dechristianize the country, claimed that Christianity was too otherworldly to oppose tyranny and was nearing extinction. They hoped to speed the process with the new cult.

Reason, Cult of Goddess of | Encyclopedia.com

I find that interesting. Is it a form of worship?

France has become a progressive secular multicultural country, it used to be a Christian country but those days are gone. Very few attend Church and most are atheist or Muslim. The same thing is happening in Belgium and many other European countries.

Europe has turned it's back to God, so God has given it over to Muslims. As a Christian I have great respect for Muslims, they don't believe in killing babies in the mother womb, they don't drink alcohol and they are very family orientated. The Muslim communities in European countries are doing very well, they have large families and they all support each other.

It's pretty obvious that the traditional European culture is rapidly declining, while Islam is flourishing and it will completely take over Europe. I believe this is Gods punishment for the Europeans turning their back to God.

 

[Spiderman]

France has become a progressive secular multicultural country, it used to be a Christian country but those days are gone. Very few attend Church and most are atheist or Muslim. The same thing is happening in Belgium and many other European countries.

Europe has turned it's back to God, so God has given it over to Muslims. As a Christian I have great respect for Muslims, they don't believe in killing babies in the mother womb, they don't drink alcohol and they are very family orientated. The Muslim communities in European countries are doing very well, they have large families and they all support each other.

It's pretty obvious that the traditional European culture is rapidly declining, while Islam is flourishing and it will completely take over Europe. I believe this is Gods punishment for the Europeans turning their back to God.

Yes, if things keep going the way they are, Islam will conquer Europe. Muslims are doing a fantastic job. They won't need to fire a shot.

With a high birth rate, political correctness, the breakup of the families, immigration, and low fertility rate among Europeans, Europe will turn into a place like Lebanon if things keep going this way. Whatever terrorism there is has nothing to do with Islam.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Yes, if things keep going the way they are, Islam will conquer Europe. Muslims are doing a fantastic job. They won't need to fire a shot.

With a high birth rate, political correctness, the breakup of the families, immigration, and low fertility rate among Europeans, Europe will turn into a place like Lebanon if things keep going this way. Whatever terrorism there is has nothing to do with Islam.

I'm not sure that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism, ISIS claim to be true Muslims. They say that the Koran teaches that Islam must conquer the whole world, the Koran does teach it's followers to convert people to Islam and if they refuse you have the right to behead them.

I have a few Muslim friends who told me that there are many ways to interpret the Koran and many can justify killing people because they refused to convert to Islam. So you can use the Koran's teaching to support terrorism, the Muslims are the biggest victims of terrorism. They kill each other because one claims that he has the right to kill the other one because he doesn't obey the Koran.

My friends have explained that a Muslim can force another Muslim to pray five times a day and do a whole bunch of things to be a proper Muslim and if he doesn't do them the more obedient Muslim has the right to kill the one who doesn't obey the teachings of Mohammad.

That's who so many Muslims die at the hands of other Muslims, so the whole religion is all about how devout you are as compared to the others. The moderate Muslims have been targeted and executed for the past 1,350 years and it continues to this day.

Islam is not always the religion of peace, Islamic countries have more more wars executions than anyone else in the world. If they kill fellow Muslims for small things, imagine how quickly they would kill an infidel Christian, jew or Atheist.

 

[Spiderman]

I'm not sure that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism, ISIS claim to be true Muslims. They say that the Koran teaches that Islam must conquer the whole world, the Koran does teach it's followers to convert people to Islam and if they refuse you have the right to behead them.

I have a few Muslim friends who told me that there are many ways to interpret the Koran and many can justify killing people because they refused to convert to Islam. So you can use the Koran's teaching to support terrorism, the Muslims are the biggest victims of terrorism. They kill each other because one claims that he has the right to kill the other one because he doesn't obey the Koran.

My friends have explained that a Muslim can force another Muslim to pray five times a day and do a whole bunch of things to be a proper Muslim and if he doesn't do them the more obedient Muslim has the right to kill the one who doesn't obey the teachings of Mohammad.

That's who so many Muslims die at the hands of other Muslims, so the whole religion is all about how devout you are as compared to the others. The moderate Muslims have been targeted and executed for the past 1,350 years and it continues to this day.

Islam is not always the religion of peace, Islamic countries have more more wars executions than anyone else in the world. If they kill fellow Muslims for small things, imagine how quickly they would kill an infidel Christian, jew or Atheist.

I'm well aware of the violence within the Quran and the calls to violence and hatred.

When I said it has nothing to do with islam, I was joking.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I find that interesting. Is it a form of worship?

No, just the frogs being silly as usual.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

France has become a progressive secular multicultural country, it used to be a Christian country but those days are gone. Very few attend Church and most are atheist or Muslim. The same thing is happening in Belgium and many other European countries.

Europe has turned it's back to God, so God has given it over to Muslims. As a Christian I have great respect for Muslims, they don't believe in killing babies in the mother womb, they don't drink alcohol and they are very family orientated. The Muslim communities in European countries are doing very well, they have large families and they all support each other.

It's pretty obvious that the traditional European culture is rapidly declining, while Islam is flourishing and it will completely take over Europe. I believe this is Gods punishment for the Europeans turning their back to God.

So you'd much rather Europe was given over to another backwards belief system that tends to try and usurp the corridors of power rather than see your faith lose all its undeserved privileges? Wow.

As a Christian I have great respect for Muslims, they don't believe in killing babies in the mother womb,

Nobody believes in killing babies in the mother's womb. There are no babies in the womb. Whether you're concerned about abortions or infanticide then you should know both Christians and Muslims worship a god who has done both: during the Flood and the murder of the first-born in Egypt.

Oh, and if Yahweh has control over everything then he's also responsible for the countless miscarriages (i.e. 'naturally-occuring' abortions) women suffer.

they don't drink alcohol

Apart from the ones that do.

and they are very family orientated.

Yeah; it's wonderful that they can be so family-orientated that the family's reputation will be worth more to them than their actual children which is why you've got parents banking their reputation on their kid's ability to learn to recite the Quran from an early age or when parents murder their daughters for daring to 'sully the family honour' by having sex before or outside of marriage.

If Europe becoming Islamified is your god's idea of punishment then he has a sick sense of humour.

 

[Dragonslayer]

So you'd much rather Europe was given over to another backwards belief system that tends to try and usurp the corridors of power rather than see your faith lose all its undeserved privileges? Wow.




Nobody believes in killing babies in the mother's womb. There are no babies in the womb. Whether you're concerned about abortions or infanticide then you should know both Christians and Muslims worship a god who has done both: during the Flood and the murder of the first-born in Egypt.

Oh, and if Yahweh has control over everything then he's also responsible for the countless miscarriages (i.e. 'naturally-occuring' abortions) women suffer.




Apart from the ones that do.




Yeah; it's wonderful that they can be so family-orientated that the family's reputation will be worth more to them than their actual children which is why you've got parents banking their reputation on their kid's ability to learn to recite the Quran from an early age or when parents murder their daughters for daring to 'sully the family honour' by having sex before or outside of marriage.

If Europe becoming Islamified is your god's idea of punishment then he has a sick sense of humour.

All Gods needs to do to punish you, is turn His back on you and your enemies will devour you like a baby lamb. The bible says that every single person has inherited original sin which consumes the person and they become a totally depraved abomination in Gods sight.

God destroyed the whole world bar 8 people with a flood because they were all totally depraved, just as this generation has become. The Bible says that God is about to destroy the world again but this time it will be with super hot lava and everyone on earth will be destroyed. Only God elect will be taken up to heaven before He destroys it.

The Bible says that a human becomes a human at the point of conception, so that fertilized egg has revived it's spirit so God sees that baby as a person so to kill that baby is murder in Gods eyes and the Bible says that those who do this will suffer eternal torment in hell. Nobody will be able to justify themselves when they stand before God on judgement day, only those who believed in Christ will enter heaven all the rest will go into everlasting torment in hell fire.

God is in full control of everything that happens in the universe, there are no accidents in Gods universe. Things might look like accidents to us but God is behind it all. So the fact that the Muslims will take over Europe by having large families who will eventually take over the governments, is an encouraging sign of Gods sovereignty to me and I always rejoice in everything God does.

It's no coincidence that Islam is flourishing while the west is in rapid decline, since they took the 10 commandments out of schools and removed the Bible from government institutions, we have seen humanism bring about a high suicide rate, high drug addiction, high abortion, high unemployment, high inflation, high rates of diseases like cancer, a high crime rate, high depression rates, high government corruption and the break down of the family unit.

We have turned our back on God and we must suffer the consequences, we can't blame God for anything. All God did was give us what we wanted and the result is eternal damnation.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

All Gods needs to do to punish you, is turn His back on you and your enemies will devour you like a baby lamb.

Wow, he sounds like a real charmer. 'Do what I say or I'll throw you to the wolves who I also have full control over'. Yet apparently he's morally perfect

The bible says that every single person has inherited original sin which consumes the person and they become a totally depraved abomination in Gods sight.

Which was your god's fault because he tricked Adam & Eve into that situation. He put the tree in Eden knowing they would eat from it. If he wanted to avoid humanity being 'corrupted' he could have. But he obviously didn't.

God destroyed the whole world bar 8 people with a flood because they were all totally depraved, just as this generation has become. The Bible says that God is about to destroy the world again but this time it will be with super hot lava and everyone on earth will be destroyed. Only God elect will be taken up to heaven before He destroys it.

So you don't deny that your god that has committed mass-murder, abortion, infanticide even while you rail against them. To make things worse you worship him knowing he apparently plans to do so again. Hypocrisy.

The Bible says that a human becomes a human at the point of conception, so that fertilized egg has revived it's spirit so God sees that baby as a person so to kill that baby is murder in Gods eyes and the Bible says that those who do this will suffer eternal torment in hell.

If that's the case I'm sure the Devil has reserved Yahweh his own personal corner. Fortunately the rest of us know better than to trust a book written by Iron Age primitives as a source for morality or lawmaking.

Nobody will be able to justify themselves when they stand before God on judgement day, only those who believed in Christ will enter heaven all the rest will go into everlasting torment in hell fire.

Christians have been going on and on about this for over two thousand years now. Your scare-story is old and has lost its lustre.

God is in full control of everything that happens in the universe, there are no accidents in Gods universe. Things might look like accidents to us but God is behind it all. So the fact that the Muslims will take over Europe by having large families who will eventually take over the governments, is an encouraging sign of Gods sovereignty to me and I always rejoice in everything God does.

Such an outlook is frankly disgusting. You would actively cheer if Islamists took over countries and started destroying the intellectual foundations we've built our societies on since the Enlightenment? If you want to live in a Christian society so badly why don't you move to Uganda or one of the Latin American countries?

It's no coincidence that Islam is flourishing while the west is in rapid decline, since they took the 10 commandments out of schools and removed the Bible from government institutions, we have seen humanism bring about a high suicide rate, high drug addiction, high abortion, high unemployment, high inflation, high rates of diseases like cancer, a high crime rate, high depression rates, high government corruption and the break down of the family unit.

No. Correlation does not equal causation. A lot of (if not all) of these things existed long before Christianity started declining in the West and there's no reason to blame Christianity's decline for it. The only reason it seems like they're worse than before is because of the easy access of information (comparative to a century or four ago) so it's easier for us to learn about instances happening; and because we're slowly but surely removing the stigma of talking about a lot of these issues. In the cases of diseases apparently becoming more widespread it's more than likely due to the fact we now understand enough about human physiology and microbiology to be able to identify these problems.

We have turned our back on God and we must suffer the consequences, we can't blame God for anything.

But since your god is apparently in full control then yes we can blame him for anything and everything that goes wrong. That's the logical inference. If he's got both hands on the proverbial wheel he's getting blamed if the car goes over the cliff. This have-your-cake-and-eat-it theology you're pushing holds no weight outside your echo chamber.

All God did was give us what we wanted and the result is eternal damnation.

If your god is a) morally perfect and b) all-powerful then why would he want to inflict eternal punishment for a finite crime?

Of course it could be that

1. He's either only one or (more likely) neither A or B;
2. He's not as advertised

 

[Dragonslayer]

Wow, he sounds like a real charmer. 'Do what I say or I'll throw you to the wolves who I also have full control over'. Yet apparently he's morally perfect




Which was your god's fault because he tricked Adam & Eve into that situation. He put the tree in Eden knowing they would eat from it. If he wanted to avoid humanity being 'corrupted' he could have. But he obviously didn't.




So you don't deny that your god that has committed mass-murder, abortion, infanticide even while you rail against them. To make things worse you worship him knowing he apparently plans to do so again. Hypocrisy.




If that's the case I'm sure the Devil has reserved Yahweh his own personal corner. Fortunately the rest of us know better than to trust a book written by Iron Age primitives as a source for morality or lawmaking.




Christians have been going on and on about this for over two thousand years now. Your scare-story is old and has lost its lustre.




Such an outlook is frankly disgusting. You would actively cheer if Islamists took over countries and started destroying the intellectual foundations we've built our societies on since the Enlightenment? If you want to live in a Christian society so badly why don't you move to Uganda or one of the Latin American countries?




No. Correlation does not equal causation. A lot of (if not all) of these things existed long before Christianity started declining in the West and there's no reason to blame Christianity's decline for it. The only reason it seems like they're worse than before is because of the easy access of information (comparative to a century or four ago) so it's easier for us to learn about instances happening; and because we're slowly but surely removing the stigma of talking about a lot of these issues. In the cases of diseases apparently becoming more widespread it's more than likely due to the fact we now understand enough about human physiology and microbiology to be able to identify these problems.




But since your god is apparently in full control then yes we can blame him for anything and everything that goes wrong. That's the logical inference. If he's got both hands on the proverbial wheel he's getting blamed if the car goes over the cliff. This have-your-cake-and-eat-it theology you're pushing holds no weight outside your echo chamber.




If your god is a) morally perfect and b) all-powerful then why would he want to inflict eternal punishment for a finite crime?

Of course it could be that

1. He's either only one or (more likely) neither A or B;
2. He's not as advertised

Your understanding of scripture and God is totally perverted and distorted. You just confirm the Biblical truth that unbelievers will never understand Gods Word.

The Bible says that the reprobate have been totally blinded by the powers of darkness and they have been completely deceived into believing their lies. your comments prove that you don't know God and you don't understand His Word.

You accuse God of committing wickedness, because you can't make any sense of what He is doing or why He is doing the things He does. Believers don't have any such issues, we know why God does what He does. We know that everyone gets exactly what they deserve.

All of those who were destroyed in the great flood, deserved to be drowned because they were all unrepentant sinners and the babies would have followed suit if they were given the opportunity to grow up so there's no issue there for us to discuss.

The fact that God knows exactly what is going to happen doesn't mean He causes it to happen, He facilitates it and wicked men carry out the actions so they are fully responsible for making their choices. Just because God knows what every single person will choose doesn't mean He is responsible for making the choice for them, they do what comes naturally to them and since they were born totally depraved sinners they will do what a totally depraved sinner does.

I would urge you to learn the ABC's of reality, you will never begin to understand the more complicated things until you get the basic fundamentals right. Once you come to the realization that everyone is born with the cancer of original sin, then everything starts to make sense. Until then you are condemned to chase shadows and wonder around lost and blind.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Your understanding of scripture and God is totally perverted and distorted. You just confirm the Biblical truth that unbelievers will never understand Gods Word.

The Bible says that the reprobate have been totally blinded by the powers of darkness and they have been completely deceived into believing their lies. your comments prove that you don't know God and you don't understand His Word.

Two paragraphs saying nothing important.

You accuse God of committing wickedness, because you can't make any sense of what He is doing or why He is doing the things He does. Believers don't have any such issues, we know why God does what He does. We know that everyone gets exactly what they deserve.

It's my 'God-given' reason that's helping me form my position as opposed to your slavish adherence to dogma which results in you taking self-contradictory positions. Namely

1. You're against abortion but you're okay with your god committing planetary ecocide which would include aborting foetuses in the womb across the planet;
2. You worship a god who imposes moral strictures on humans, claims he's morally perfect yet seems unable/unwilling to act according to his own rules;
3. You claim your god is in full control of everything yet say he is not responsible when things that he has full control over happen.

All of those who were destroyed in the great flood, deserved to be drowned because they were all unrepentant sinners and the babies would have followed suit if they were given the opportunity to grow up so there's no issue there for us to discuss.

Even the babies who hadn't sinned yet or the foetuses in their mothers' wombs who weren't even born? Wow. Given that you've already established your belief we're all unrepentant sinners then the foetuses who get aborted have it coming. So now your objections to abortion come across as hypocritical and not thought out.

The fact that God knows exactly what is going to happen doesn't mean He causes it to happen, He facilitates it and wicked men carry out the actions so they are fully responsible for making their choices.

Actually yes it does. You're describing a pre-determined Universe where your god can see all of our potential choices and how each one will be resolved or not. That means the future is fixed and nobody can choose other than what your god knows they will. This makes the concept of Hell and eternal damnation for our actions, words & thoughts utterly callous and excessive.

Just because God knows what every single person will choose doesn't mean He is responsible for making the choice for them, they do what comes naturally to them and since they were born totally depraved sinners they will do what a totally depraved sinner does.

Since your god is already all-knowing the belief that we have a concept of choice is false. You're also forgetting who's ultimately responsible for humanity becoming 'totally depraved sinners'; the owner of one 'Tree of Forbidden Fruit'. Yahweh put the tree in Eden knowing Adam & Eve, having no free will, would eat from it; Yahweh is to blame for that whole scenario.

I would urge you to learn the ABC's of reality, you will never begin to understand the more complicated things until you get the basic fundamentals right. Once you come to the realization that everyone is born with the cancer of original sin, then everything starts to make sense. Until then you are condemned to chase shadows and wonder around lost and blind.

Were I to accept the notion that everyone was born with original sin; my reason would lead me inexorably to the circumstances of how exactly we got that cancer in the first place and the monster of a deity that tricked us into it.

Your hatred for the non-believer and those who think differently means you're a great advert for your faith. Please, continue doing this!

 

[Dragonslayer]

Two paragraphs saying nothing important.




It's my 'God-given' reason that's helping me form my position as opposed to your slavish adherence to dogma which results in you taking self-contradictory positions. Namely

1. You're against abortion but you're okay with your god committing planetary ecocide which would include aborting foetuses in the womb across the planet;
2. You worship a god who imposes moral strictures on humans, claims he's morally perfect yet seems unable/unwilling to act according to his own rules;
3. You claim your god is in full control of everything yet say he is not responsible when things that he has full control over happen.

Even the babies who hadn't sinned yet or the foetuses in their mothers' wombs who weren't even born? Wow. Given that you've already established your belief we're all unrepentant sinners then the foetuses who get aborted have it coming. So now your objections to abortion come across as hypocritical and not thought out.




Actually yes it does. You're describing a pre-determined Universe where your god can see all of our potential choices and how each one will be resolved or not. That means the future is fixed and nobody can choose other than what your god knows they will. This makes the concept of Hell and eternal damnation for our actions, words & thoughts utterly callous and excessive.




Since your god is already all-knowing the belief that we have a concept of choice is false. You're also forgetting who's ultimately responsible for humanity becoming 'totally depraved sinners'; the owner of one 'Tree of Forbidden Fruit'. Yahweh put the tree in Eden knowing Adam & Eve, having no free will, would eat from it; Yahweh is to blame for that whole scenario.




Were I to accept the notion that everyone was born with original sin; my reason would lead me inexorably to the circumstances of how exactly we got that cancer in the first place and the monster of a deity that tricked us into it.

Your hatred for the non-believer and those who think differently means you're a great advert for your faith. Please, continue doing this!

You are attempting to blame God for your sins, but there is no way of justifying your choice to sin against God. God gave you a free will and you abuse that free will and choose to sin against God.

Yes God knows exactly what every individual will choose to do, because everyone is born into sin so they naturally respond by choosing to rebel against God and sin against Him.

If God doesn't intervene and convert a person, they will never choose to believe the Gospel. God is the One who chooses to save the individual, if He doesn't intervene and cause the person to believe they will go to the grave as unbelievers.

Unbelievers always try to avoid responsibility for their sins by claiming that God created them that way. The truth is they were born that way because they inherited the cancer of sin from their parents who originally inherited it from Adam and Eve, who were deceived by Satan.

Lucifer was the One who committed the first sin and one third of the Angels in heaven followed Him in rebellion against God. So our first parents were deceived into joining that spirit of rebellion and sin, so the whole of mankind was infected with that cancer. Sin consumes the whole person to the point where they lose their ability to believe the truth.

You can't accuse me of being an accessory to killing all those who died in the flood, I have no right to murder anyone because I'm a sinner but God has every right to punish sinners because He is sinless and perfectly righteous. He never punishes anyone who doesn't deserve it so nobody can accuse Him of injustice.

God is not the author of sin, yes He allows us to sin to the point where it won't alter His grand plan. He can see the whole of human history from the start to the end and everything is working towards achieving His ultimate goal. Unbelievers accuse Him of being the author of sin, because they don't understand that He can see the future as if it had already come to pass.

God didn't have to save anyone, He would have been perfectly just to leave everyone in their sin and cast everyone into hell on judgement day. The fact that he chose to save billions of His enemies who hated Him shows His amazing love and mercy towards wicked, totally depraved, evil doers.

You might suffer to save a family member or a good friend, but you would never suffer and die for your mortal enemies, so you can't even begin to understand Gods love and righteousness. Every unbeliever abides in total blindness, they don't have a clue about the truth. The Word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing, they can't even begin to understand the truth.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You are attempting to blame God for your sins, but there is no way of justifying your choice to sin against God. God gave you a free will and you abuse that free will and choose to sin against God.

No. If the Universe is deterministic (as you've established by claiming Yahweh knows all ends) then nobody except Yahweh has the ability to choose. Just as you might call an atheist deluded for not believing in your god due to the fact they cannot comprehend him with their limited faculties; so too are you deluded into believing we have free will due to the fact you cannot comprehend the limits placed on our existence with your limited faculties.

Yes God knows exactly what every individual will choose to do, because everyone is born into sin so they naturally respond by choosing to rebel against God and sin against Him.

And according to your scripture Yahweh put the first humans in a position he had designed for them to fail; thus ensuring their descendants would have inherited sin. It's his fault.

If God doesn't intervene and convert a person, they will never choose to believe the Gospel. God is the One who chooses to save the individual, if He doesn't intervene and cause the person to believe they will go to the grave as unbelievers.

Okay so now converting to Christianity isn't a matter of choice on our part; but on Yahweh's. And to top it all off if he chooses not to convert & save us from the situation he got us into in the first place we'll be thrown to the fire?

I'm worried for the future of our species if you honestly hold this as a moral doctrine.

Unbelievers always try to avoid responsibility for their sins by claiming that God created them that way. The truth is they were born that way because they inherited the cancer of sin from their parents who originally inherited it from Adam and Eve, who were deceived by Satan.

... into eating from a tree that Yahweh had put in the garden knowing they were going to eat from it. If he didn't want them to eat from the tree he more than likely wouldn't have put it there which leads inexorably to the conclusion that your god deliberately entrapped Adam & Eve with the express purpose of ensuring they got Original Sin.

Why would you be okay with this? Your god is a monster.

Lucifer was the One who committed the first sin and one third of the Angels in heaven followed Him in rebellion against God. So our first parents were deceived into joining that spirit of rebellion and sin, so the whole of mankind was infected with that cancer. Sin consumes the whole person to the point where they lose their ability to believe the truth.

I'm amazed only one third of the angelic host realised that Yahweh's plan was disgustingly idiotic and utterly cruel.

You can't accuse me of being an accessory to killing all those who died in the flood,

I didn't say you killed them or that you were party to it. I said you found it acceptable which is massively hypocritical of you.

That said; I suppose you are an accessory in a way because now you're trying to justify planetary genocide & ecocide.

I have no right to murder anyone because I'm a sinner but God has every right to punish sinners because He is sinless and perfectly righteous. He never punishes anyone who doesn't deserve it so nobody can accuse Him of injustice.

So he gets a free pass for committing the very acts he intends to damn us all for 'bcuz he's Gawd'. The only thing that's surprising about this sentiment is it took you this long to trot it out.

God is not the author of sin, yes He allows us to sin to the point where it won't alter His grand plan.

Yahweh engineered and was in full control of the conditions that caused humanity to gain Original Sin in the first place. All of the blame falls squarely on his shoulders..

He can see the whole of human history from the start to the end and everything is working towards achieving His ultimate goal. Unbelievers accuse Him of being the author of sin, because they don't understand that He can see the future as if it had already come to pass.

Actually it's precisely because I understand that this is your interpretation of the divine that, assuming your theology is accurate for the sake of argument, I blame him for creating the conditions that ensured we'd all inherit Original Sin. Full control = full blame.

God didn't have to save anyone,

He didn't have to trick Adam & Eve into a condition they and their descendants would need to be saved from either but that didn't stop him from doing so.

He would have been perfectly just to leave everyone in their sin and cast everyone into hell on judgement day. The fact that he chose to save billions of His enemies who hated Him shows His amazing love and mercy towards wicked, totally depraved, evil doers.

You might suffer to save a family member or a good friend, but you would never suffer and die for your mortal enemies, so you can't even begin to understand Gods love and righteousness. Every unbeliever abides in total blindness, they don't have a clue about the truth. The Word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing, they can't even begin to understand the truth.

A loving, merciful & righteous god would not condemn anyone to eternal suffering for circumstances he (the god) deliberately engineered them to fall into - and that only he can rescue them from. In fact, a loving, merciful & righteous god would not deceive people into such circumstances in the first place, nor would he blame them for their inevitable actions influenced by the cancer he gave them.

 

[Dragonslayer]

No. If the Universe is deterministic (as you've established by claiming Yahweh knows all ends) then nobody except Yahweh has the ability to choose. Just as you might call an atheist deluded for not believing in your god due to the fact they cannot comprehend him with their limited faculties; so too are you deluded into believing we have free will due to the fact you cannot comprehend the limits placed on our existence with your limited faculties.




And according to your scripture Yahweh put the first humans in a position he had designed for them to fail; thus ensuring their descendants would have inherited sin. It's his fault.




Okay so now converting to Christianity isn't a matter of choice on our part; but on Yahweh's. And to top it all off if he chooses not to convert & save us from the situation he got us into in the first place we'll be thrown to the fire?

I'm worried for the future of our species if you honestly hold this as a moral doctrine.




... into eating from a tree that Yahweh had put in the garden knowing they were going to eat from it. If he didn't want them to eat from the tree he more than likely wouldn't have put it there which leads inexorably to the conclusion that your god deliberately entrapped Adam & Eve with the express purpose of ensuring they got Original Sin.

Why would you be okay with this? Your god is a monster.




I'm amazed only one third of the angelic host realised that Yahweh's plan was disgustingly idiotic and utterly cruel.




I didn't say you killed them or that you were party to it. I said you found it acceptable which is massively hypocritical of you.

That said; I suppose you are an accessory in a way because now you're trying to justify planetary genocide & ecocide.




So he gets a free pass for committing the very acts he intends to damn us all for 'bcuz he's Gawd'. The only thing that's surprising about this sentiment is it took you this long to trot it out.




Yahweh engineered and was in full control of the conditions that caused humanity to gain Original Sin in the first place. All of the blame falls squarely on his shoulders..




Actually it's precisely because I understand that this is your interpretation of the divine that, assuming your theology is accurate for the sake of argument, I blame him for creating the conditions that ensured we'd all inherit Original Sin. Full control = full blame.




He didn't have to trick Adam & Eve into a condition they and their descendants would need to be saved from either but that didn't stop him from doing so.




A loving, merciful & righteous god would not condemn anyone to eternal suffering for circumstances he (the god) deliberately engineered them to fall into - and that only he can rescue them from. In fact, a loving, merciful & righteous god would not deceive people into such circumstances in the first place, nor would he blame them for their inevitable actions influenced by the cancer he gave them.

You keep missing the elephant in the room, God doesn't cast anyone into hell who doesn't deserve it and all unbelievers are totally depraved sinners so they must all be cast into hell to be tormented forever because that's exactly what they deserve. I know you don't agree because you obviously love your sin more than you love God.

I said that god is not the author of sin, yet you still accuse Him of being it's author. I tried to explain that God created us with a free will and mankind fell into sin by abusing his free will to commit acts of evil (sin).

God didn't create pre programmed robots, He gave us limited ability to choose what we do. We are the ones who chose to rebel against god and choose to do evil, God gave us commandments for our own good. They were given to us to keep us spiritually and physically healthy, but we choose to rebel and do those things He warned us not to do or we would suffer the consequences.

We defied God and sinned against Him and now we get people like you blaming God for the choices you made. Every single person owns their sins, nobody else is responsible for the things you did.

The only difference between a saved person and the reprobate is God chose to save one and He left the other one in his sin. If God doesn't give a person the gift of faith they will never come believe and thus they will damned and not be forgiven for their sins.

We can't blame God for choosing to give our lives over to serve sin, we make that choice all by ourselves. God has absolutely nothing to do with our choice to dedicate ourselves to give our lives over to serve sin and become prisoners of our own making.

We continue to dig a deeper hole with every passing day of our lives, and we end up so deep that we can't see any light and we are completely lost forever. Our only hope is that Christ would rescue us from the dark pit we have dug for ourselves, if He doesn't rescue us we are most certainly condemned to a lost eternity.

You should be amazed that God choose to save any one at all, not do the opposite and accuse Him of injustice. He is not obliged to save a single enemy of His, we were all born His enemies and we all hated Him before He saved us and opened our eyes to the truth and we saw ourselves as we really are.

Our enemy Satan and His Demons tell us that we are good people and that God is a tyrant, while the truth is we are wicked and god is all good and all Holy and all Righteous. As long as we remain blind we will never know the truth until we find it on judgement day, when the veil will be lifted and we will face the awful truth as it is.

Jesus said, today is the day of salvation. Don't gamble with your eternal destiny, don't believe the enemy who tells you that you have plenty of time to get right with God. It's the most urgent and important matter which deserves to be given the highest priority in our lives.

I can't convince you to believe, I have no power but Christ has all the power in the whole universe. he is the only One who can save you but you must turn from your sins, repent and ask Him to save you and He most certainly will do it right away and you will receive eternal life in paradise 100% guaranteed.

Christ said,"as many as believe in Me shall be saved". So all one needs to do is believe in Him and they will be saved, don't believe anyone who pushes their religion and says that you need to do certain good works to make yourself acceptable. That is a lie from the pits of hell, Christ will take you exactly as you are no matter how much or what sins you have committed. He can save any sinner and they can come to Him just as they are.

 

[Holdasown]

"In the cathedral a shrine was erected in honor of Reason and Liberty. In front of the choir a sacred mountain was constructed, surmounted by a small Greek temple in honor of Philosophy.

A young opera singer, whose name remains uncertain, posed as Liberty and was dubbed "Goddess of Reason." A flame, symbolic of truth, burned on an altar, while white-clad young girls, wearing tricolored sashes representative of allegiance to the Republic, carried torches up and down the sacred mountain. Meanwhile the congregation sang AndréChenier's hymn: "Come, Holy Liberty, dwell in this temple; become the Goddess of the French people."

The temples of Reason recognized the Supreme Being; others venerated Brutus or Jean Marat. The revolutionary extremists, who were trying to dechristianize the country, claimed that Christianity was too otherworldly to oppose tyranny and was nearing extinction. They hoped to speed the process with the new cult.

Reason, Cult of Goddess of | Encyclopedia.com

I find that interesting. Is it a form of worship?

Well lots of pagans will tell you they don't think the gods actually exist but they are still involved in ritual and practice. Not sure worship is right though if you think nothing is there.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You keep missing the elephant in the room, God doesn't cast anyone into hell who doesn't deserve it and all unbelievers are totally depraved sinners so they must all be cast into hell to be tormented forever because that's exactly what they deserve. I know you don't agree because you obviously love your sin more than you love God.

You're begging the question that it's moral for people to be punished for something they can't help. It's not a case of "loving my sin more than I love God"; that's an erroneous assumption. I don't believe the concept of sin makes sense and it only holds weight inside an Abrahamic theology. Being a worshipper of non-Abrahamic gods, I thus don't put much stock in it.

I said that god is not the author of sin, yet you still accuse Him of being it's author.

You're no religious authority or scholar so what else did you expect? Acquiescence? Agreement? You've given no reasonable arguments; your attempts to substantiate your claims involve nothing but mindless repetition. You just snap from one unreasonable claim to the next - it's not an approach that a) comes across as full of Christ-like love or b) is likely to convince anyone but the most gullible or emotionally vulnerable.

I tried to explain that God created us with a free will and mankind fell into sin by abusing his free will to commit acts of evil (sin).

You've stated this ad nauseum but you've failed to give reasons for it. Your claims fall down in light of the fact that you're proposing a determinist Universe where nobody can truly have free will due to the fact that Yahweh is all-knowing & all-powerful. Further, if we're given the ability to choose but we're expected to use it only in a certain way then it's not 'free' will.

God didn't create pre programmed robots, He gave us limited ability to choose what we do. We are the ones who chose to rebel against god and choose to do evil,

I don't remember choosing any such thing yet apparently I've been loaded with Original Sin from the moment I was born - i.e. before I had the capacity to make any choices. How is that just?

Imagine your great great great grandfather was a convicted rapist so the legal system decided everyone of his male descendants would inherit his criminal record from the moment they're born. You would subsequently be handicapped by the fact you're a criminal despite even if you never committed a crime yourself. Would you consider that just?

God gave us commandments for our own good.

Commandments he himself sees fit to violate on a whim. Why should we keep to commandments that are too difficult for an omnipotent god to follow?

They were given to us to keep us spiritually and physically healthy, but we choose to rebel and do those things He warned us not to do or we would suffer the consequences.

On the subject of mass-murder, infanticide, deceit, inflicting suffering, environmental damage, apathy and setting rules for other people that we do not ourselves adhere to; I can honestly say we as a species are faithfully following in Yahweh's footsteps.

We defied God and sinned against Him and now we get people like you blaming God for the choices you made. Every single person owns their sins, nobody else is responsible for the things you did.

So what exactly did I do to deserve 'Original Sin' and the resulting damnation when I was born?

Who was it that put the Forbidden Tree in Eden in the first place?

The only difference between a saved person and the reprobate is God chose to save one and He left the other one in his sin. If God doesn't give a person the gift of faith they will never come believe and thus they will damned and not be forgiven for their sins.

We can't blame God for choosing to give our lives over to serve sin, we make that choice all by ourselves. God has absolutely nothing to do with our choice to dedicate ourselves to give our lives over to serve sin and become prisoners of our own making.

These two paragraphs contradict one another. In the first one you say the onus for whether people dedicate their lives to sin or not is with Yahweh; in the second paragraph the onus for whether are people dedicate their lives to sin or not is with the people themselves. Pick one because you can't reasonably have both. Either we dedicate our lives to sin because Yahweh chooses it or we do.

You should be amazed that God choose to save any one at all,

I actually am amazed that a psychopathic monster would choose to save us from a mess he got us into in such a convoluted and unnecessarily arbitrary way. But what's more amazing is that any being would actually go out of its way to do this to anybody in the first place - much less a being that wants us to believe it is perfect.

not do the opposite and accuse Him of injustice.

I calls 'em like I sees 'em. If you don't want me calling your god unjust then you should stop stridently and baselessly insisting otherwise. Same goes for your theology; if you can't handle that being criticised then stop trying to pass it off as the truth - especially since preaching is against the forum rules.

He is not obliged to save a single enemy of His, we were all born His enemies and we all hated Him before He saved us and opened our eyes to the truth and we saw ourselves as we really are.

If he's truly so amazing then there's nothing stopping him from simply absolving us from our sinful acts & sinful nature with nothing more than a wave of his hand. It would be that easy. But he won't do it and that's why your religion makes no sense.

Our enemy Satan and His Demons tell us that we are good people and that God is a tyrant, while the truth is we are wicked and god is all good and all Holy and all Righteous.

Actually no. It's the Bible that tells me your god is a tyrant and a monster. An all-powerful being does not need to resort to mass-murder to solve anything yet your god has repeatedly done so.

Jesus said, today is the day of salvation.

It's been the 'day of salvation' for over two millennia now. The concept is rather old and has lost its clang.

Don't gamble with your eternal destiny, don't believe the enemy who tells you that you have plenty of time to get right with God. It's the most urgent and important matter which deserves to be given the highest priority in our lives.

I can't convince you to believe, I have no power but Christ has all the power in the whole universe. he is the only One who can save you but you must turn from your sins, repent and ask Him to save you and He most certainly will do it right away and you will receive eternal life in paradise 100% guaranteed.

Christ said,"as many as believe in Me shall be saved". So all one needs to do is believe in Him and they will be saved, don't believe anyone who pushes their religion and says that you need to do certain good works to make yourself acceptable. That is a lie from the pits of hell, Christ will take you exactly as you are no matter how much or what sins you have committed. He can save any sinner and they can come to Him just as they are.

For some reason I find the notion that I'll be up in Heaven mindlessly praising a psychopath deity while locking arms with some of humanity's most heinous mass-murderers, rapists, war criminals etc less than appealing.

Also; you're not taking into account the fact your god might simply decide not to save me. You're expecting me to put my trust in a being I have no reason at all to trust.

Well lots of pagans will tell you they don't think the gods actually exist but they are still involved in ritual and practice. Not sure worship is right though if you think nothing is there.

"Lots of pagans"? Where do you get this idea from?

 

[Dragonslayer]

You're begging the question that it's moral for people to be punished for something they can't help. It's not a case of "loving my sin more than I love God"; that's an erroneous assumption. I don't believe the concept of sin makes sense and it only holds weight inside an Abrahamic theology. Being a worshipper of non-Abrahamic gods, I thus don't put much stock in it.




You're no religious authority or scholar so what else did you expect? Acquiescence? Agreement? You've given no reasonable arguments; your attempts to substantiate your claims involve nothing but mindless repetition. You just snap from one unreasonable claim to the next - it's not an approach that a) comes across as full of Christ-like love or b) is likely to convince anyone but the most gullible or emotionally vulnerable.




You've stated this ad nauseum but you've failed to give reasons for it. Your claims fall down in light of the fact that you're proposing a determinist Universe where nobody can truly have free will due to the fact that Yahweh is all-knowing & all-powerful. Further, if we're given the ability to choose but we're expected to use it only in a certain way then it's not 'free' will.




I don't remember choosing any such thing yet apparently I've been loaded with Original Sin from the moment I was born - i.e. before I had the capacity to make any choices. How is that just?

Imagine your great great great grandfather was a convicted rapist so the legal system decided everyone of his male descendants would inherit his criminal record from the moment they're born. You would subsequently be handicapped by the fact you're a criminal despite even if you never committed a crime yourself. Would you consider that just?




Commandments he himself sees fit to violate on a whim. Why should we keep to commandments that are too difficult for an omnipotent god to follow?




On the subject of mass-murder, infanticide, deceit, inflicting suffering, environmental damage, apathy and setting rules for other people that we do not ourselves adhere to; I can honestly say we as a species are faithfully following in Yahweh's footsteps.




So what exactly did I do to deserve 'Original Sin' and the resulting damnation when I was born?

Who was it that put the Forbidden Tree in Eden in the first place?




These two paragraphs contradict one another. In the first one you say the onus for whether people dedicate their lives to sin or not is with Yahweh; in the second paragraph the onus for whether are people dedicate their lives to sin or not is with the people themselves. Pick one because you can't reasonably have both. Either we dedicate our lives to sin because Yahweh chooses it or we do.




I actually am amazed that a psychopathic monster would choose to save us from a mess he got us into in such a convoluted and unnecessarily arbitrary way. But what's more amazing is that any being would actually go out of its way to do this to anybody in the first place - much less a being that wants us to believe it is perfect.




I calls 'em like I sees 'em. If you don't want me calling your god unjust then you should stop stridently and baselessly insisting otherwise. Same goes for your theology; if you can't handle that being criticised then stop trying to pass it off as the truth - especially since preaching is against the forum rules.




If he's truly so amazing then there's nothing stopping him from simply absolving us from our sinful acts & sinful nature with nothing more than a wave of his hand. It would be that easy. But he won't do it and that's why your religion makes no sense.




Actually no. It's the Bible that tells me your god is a tyrant and a monster. An all-powerful being does not need to resort to mass-murder to solve anything yet your god has repeatedly done so.




It's been the 'day of salvation' for over two millennia now. The concept is rather old and has lost its clang.









For some reason I find the notion that I'll be up in Heaven mindlessly praising a psychopath deity while locking arms with some of humanity's most heinous mass-murderers, rapists, war criminals etc less than appealing.

Also; you're not taking into account the fact your god might simply decide not to save me. You're expecting me to put my trust in a being I have no reason at all to trust.




"Lots of pagans"? Where do you get this idea from?

I'm not preaching here, I'm simply sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ who claimed and proved that He was God the Creator of everything that exists. I quote God's Word and His teaching and His commandments, warnings and promises.

I just happen to Know Jesus personally so for me it's not a question of whether He is God or not, it's a question of obedience. I know what it's like to live as a blind person (spiritually blind and blind to the truth) so I know where you're coming from.

Try to put yourself in my shoes for a minute, you have meet Jesus (The creator God of all things) He revealed the truth to you and He showed you what would happen to all unbelievers and you saw them screaming in the super hot flames of hell and you realize that they are going to be there for all eternity.

I'm sure you would want to urge everyone to turn from their sins, repent and ask Jesus to be the Lord of their lives. If I don't warn those who I come into contact with, then their blood will be on my hands so I'm OK with you hating me for telling you the truth. Christ commanded all true believers to go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature.

Christ commanded us to love our enemies, because He loved us while we were His enemies and He suffered untold agony for our sake. That leaves us completely humble, with no room for any hatred or judgement towards anyone. We treat everyone as if they are all the Saints of God, because we don't know who God has decided to save.

You ask some very deep questions for which you are not equipped to receive the answers to. I'm not going to explain why God allows some to remain in their sinful fallen state and why they were created without the ability to come to a saving faith in Christ. Those questions will be answered in due course but you are currently not equipped to receive the answers.

I would urge you to deal with your current situation, put Christ to the test before you write Him off. All you need to do is humble yourself and approach Him in prayer and ask Him to reveal the truth to you. He will never chase after anyone, He has invited everyone to come to Him so all you need to do is knock and it will be opened to you, ask and you shall receive.

Put those questions aside for a minute, I know things don't make sense to you now. I don't have a way with words, my communication skills are very poor, I have ABI (acquired brain damage) from a long term heroin addiction. I came to the Lord as an alcoholic and heroin addict, and I have only been converted and clean for 3 and a half years.

Christ removed the addictions and He allowed me to suffer severe physical and mental pain for months before I started feeling better. My Doctors said it wasn't possible to just stop doing those things without long term medical assistance, but they said that because they don't know that Christ has power over all the physical and spiritual elements.

I attended Narcotics anonymous meetings for a shot time, to share my experience but only a few people believed me so I don't bother going anymore. They all continue to identify as addicts, even after years of abstinence because they are still in bondage to their sin. I have been healed so I don't identify as an addict, I still bare some physical and mental scars but my spirit is new and I will become perfect when I receive my glorified body after this race is over.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I'm not preaching here, I'm simply sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ who claimed and proved that He was God the Creator of everything that exists. I quote God's Word and His teaching and His commandments, warnings and promises.

Oh. Right. You could have said that at the beginning and spared us all this friction.

*sigh*

Since emotions and nuance sometimes don't carry well through a screen, allow me to clarify: I was being sarcastic with the above statement. Extremely sarcastic.

Because society already has a word for "sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ" and quoting scripture at people. You know what that word is? Preaching.

I just happen to Know Jesus personally so for me it's not a question of whether He is God or not, it's a question of obedience. I know what it's like to live as a blind person (spiritually blind and blind to the truth) so I know where you're coming from.

Except blindness can't be cured so no, you don't. Also, your supposed personal relationship with Jesus does not improve the truth-value of your claims.

Try to put yourself in my shoes for a minute, you have meet Jesus (The creator God of all things) He revealed the truth to you and He showed you what would happen to all unbelievers and you saw them screaming in the super hot flames of hell and you realize that they are going to be there for all eternity.

I'm sure you would want to urge everyone to turn from their sins, repent and ask Jesus to be the Lord of their lives. If I don't warn those who I come into contact with, then their blood will be on my hands so I'm OK with you hating me for telling you the truth. Christ commanded all true believers to go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature.

I can certainly understand why you'd want to convince as many people as you could. But you are mistaken. If you didn't warn those who you came into contact with then their blood would be on your god's hands as he ultimately controls the mechanisms of existence - including their ability to make choices.

You're mistaken regarding my hating you. I don't. I'm not emotionally invested in online discussions with people and I don't know you personally so I can't possibly hate you. I am, however, disgusted by the things you believe on various issues. Your beliefs about the nature of humankind is nihilistic in the extreme and basically dismisses the good things people do; your contradictory stance on abortion and killing (both of which are acceptable to you or unacceptable depending on the post) is really confusing and your slavish unwillingness to put any of the blame on your god for anything despite the fact you believe he controls everything. It really doesn't make sense.

Christ commanded us to love our enemies, because He loved us while we were His enemies and He suffered untold agony for our sake. That leaves us completely humble, with no room for any hatred or judgement towards anyone.

The fact you're having to point out how humble you are clearly indicates you're not all that humble.

We treat everyone as if they are all the Saints of God, because we don't know who God has decided to save.

Except the people you are okay with killing or the foetuses you're okay with aborting. Oh, and unbelievers. And I've yet to see you treat anyone on this forum as if they're a saint of your god considering you believe all humankind is corrupted by sin.

You ask some very deep questions for which you are not equipped to receive the answers to. I'm not going to explain why God allows some to remain in their sinful fallen state and why they were created without the ability to come to a saving faith in Christ. Those questions will be answered in due course but you are currently not equipped to receive the answers.

I'm not much of a gambler but I'm willing to bet that your answers to these questions would be 'I don't know'. And that's okay; it's fine to admit we don't know something - it's not a personal failing. It does, however, put another hole in your claim that your religion is the perfect truth.

I would urge you to deal with your current situation, put Christ to the test before you write Him off. All you need to do is humble yourself and approach Him in prayer and ask Him to reveal the truth to you. He will never chase after anyone, He has invited everyone to come to Him so all you need to do is knock and it will be opened to you, ask and you shall receive.

You don't know me so you've got no reason to assume I haven't already done this. I actually did when I was younger; I applied the advice of my church elders to my situation, sought Jesus out in prayer, asked him what the true church was and I got no answer. The point is Jesus does not answer everybody and I know from previous posts on here that I'm not the only one who sought answers from Jesus and found him wanting. He doesn't reveal himself to everybody so he can't really complain when people who get no answers turn to other gods or to no gods at all in the case of atheists.

Put those questions aside for a minute, I know things don't make sense to you now. I don't have a way with words, my communication skills are very poor, I have ABI (acquired brain damage) from a long term heroin addiction. I came to the Lord as an alcoholic and heroin addict, and I have only been converted and clean for 3 and a half years.

While I don't think much of your arguments & claims, you are being hard on yourself. You manage to type very well; I've only seen a handful of spelling & grammar errors in your posts. Your arguments aren't entirely original to you - they've been thought up and used by others before you. Typically they were as flawed then as they are now and for the same reasons.

I appreciate I sound like I've really changed my tune from my previous posts but I honestly hope you continue to recover and stay on top of your addiction.

Christ removed the addictions and He allowed me to suffer severe physical and mental pain for months before I started feeling better. My Doctors said it wasn't possible to just stop doing those things without long term medical assistance, but they said that because they don't know that Christ has power over all the physical and spiritual elements.

I suspect your doctors didn't touch the subject because they are men of science and as such can only really offer advice or knowledge on what they know to work through the scientific method. It's wise of them to not try and dabble in a subject that is outside of their professional remit. I also suspect they were leaving any such beliefs in the divine to your discretion.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Oh. Right. You could have said that at the beginning and spared us all this friction.

*sigh*

Since emotions and nuance sometimes don't carry well through a screen, allow me to clarify: I was being sarcastic with the above statement. Extremely sarcastic.

Because society already has a word for "sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ" and quoting scripture at people. You know what that word is? Preaching.




Except blindness can't be cured so no, you don't. Also, your supposed personal relationship with Jesus does not improve the truth-value of your claims.




I can certainly understand why you'd want to convince as many people as you could. But you are mistaken. If you didn't warn those who you came into contact with then their blood would be on your god's hands as he ultimately controls the mechanisms of existence - including their ability to make choices.

You're mistaken regarding my hating you. I don't. I'm not emotionally invested in online discussions with people and I don't know you personally so I can't possibly hate you. I am, however, disgusted by the things you believe on various issues. Your beliefs about the nature of humankind is nihilistic in the extreme and basically dismisses the good things people do; your contradictory stance on abortion and killing (both of which are acceptable to you or unacceptable depending on the post) is really confusing and your slavish unwillingness to put any of the blame on your god for anything despite the fact you believe he controls everything. It really doesn't make sense.




The fact you're having to point out how humble you are clearly indicates you're not all that humble.




Except the people you are okay with killing or the foetuses you're okay with aborting. Oh, and unbelievers. And I've yet to see you treat anyone on this forum as if they're a saint of your god considering you believe all humankind is corrupted by sin.




I'm not much of a gambler but I'm willing to bet that your answers to these questions would be 'I don't know'. And that's okay; it's fine to admit we don't know something - it's not a personal failing. It does, however, put another hole in your claim that your religion is the perfect truth.




You don't know me so you've got no reason to assume I haven't already done this. I actually did when I was younger; I applied the advice of my church elders to my situation, sought Jesus out in prayer, asked him what the true church was and I got no answer. The point is Jesus does not answer everybody and I know from previous posts on here that I'm not the only one who sought answers from Jesus and found him wanting. He doesn't reveal himself to everybody so he can't really complain when people who get no answers turn to other gods or to no gods at all in the case of atheists.




While I don't think much of your arguments & claims, you are being hard on yourself. You manage to type very well; I've only seen a handful of spelling & grammar errors in your posts. Your arguments aren't entirely original to you - they've been thought up and used by others before you. Typically they were as flawed then as they are now and for the same reasons.

I appreciate I sound like I've really changed my tune from my previous posts but I honestly hope you continue to recover and stay on top of your addiction.




I suspect your doctors didn't touch the subject because they are men of science and as such can only really offer advice or knowledge on what they know to work through the scientific method. It's wise of them to not try and dabble in a subject that is outside of their professional remit. I also suspect they were leaving any such beliefs in the divine to your discretion.

I don't believe that you ever humbled yourself before you approached Christ, you approached Him in a demanding and rebellious manner. Christ will not respond to a person who holds on to their sin, while they put Him to the test.

Before you come to Christ you must turn from your sin, humble yourself and trust in Him to reveal the truth to you. Most people need to hit a rock bottom before they come to Christ, I get a distinct impression that you are not ready to receive the truth as yet. Every single one of Gods elect will become true believers before they die, nobody knows when God will convert a person. That's why I said that we treat everyone as if they are one of Gods elect.

You present as a carnal person, I don't need to know you personally to make that claim it's evident that you're not a converted person. If you were a true believer you would confess it to the whole world. I belong to Christ, He purchased me on the cross. I was in bondage to my sins and I was spiritually dead and on my way to hell before Christ purchased me so I am His property and I love being His prisoner.

There is no greater blessing and honor to be numbered among Christs own people. He leads and I follow so I have no responsibility or fear of anything except for Him.