God: Trinity or Unity?

[Kenny]

Yes, Jesus is ‘FIRSTBORN’ of God which means:

• ‘The most beloved [of the Father]’

How did you get to that conclusion?

 

[Soapy]

How did you get to that conclusion?

Thank you for at least THINKING and ASKING rather than just DENYING and EVADING the subject.

The FIRST BORN [male] child (first to open the womb) in Hebrew/Jew/Israelite terms is THE MOST LOVED of all the father’s children (note: This nation people did not consider a female being birth as significant). In fact, the father was supposed to dedicate his first born male child to God but even if he did so, the patriarch first child always sinned and lost his place as the most loved… another was brought up in positional terms as the most loved and secured the greater portion of the father’s wealth when the time came to do so. It’s rather a silly argument to claim that the greater wealth was ALWAYS the possession of the first born because as we see, sometimes, the first born loses his place to another - as I pointed out to you in my list!

(I’m going to say Israelite instead of all those other titles) The Israelites forefathers in the list I gave you were examples of where a FIRST (chronologically) BORN male child was INITIALLY THE MOST LOVED (The FIRSTBORN) right from the off.

A male child was the fathers PRIDE AND JOY (using the term ‘FIRSTBORN’).

As other male children were born to the Father it came to be that that FIRST (chronologically) BORN sinned in an awful way and the Father’s love was transferred to ANOTHER of his male children… this child now became the fathers MOST BELOVED CHILD (‘FIRSTBORN’).

Relook at the list I gave you and see that everything I said is true:

• Adam was God’s first ‘born’ son. Adam sinned so ANOTHER, the Messiah, came to be THE MOST LOVED (FIRSTBORN) of God

See that it is the CHRONOLOGICALLY FIRST BORN who sins and that the one who becomes FIRSTBORN is NEXT or DOWN the line and not necessarily the last (David was not the last son of Jesse, for instance, nor who their Mother was any part in full, e.g. Solomon was born from an illegal relationship from David… Rahab… Sarah’s slave… etc. As with Job; God will have mercy on whom he Wills... it’s not for us to judge God!)

When Ishmael was born, Abraham LOVED HIM DEARLY… (Ishmael was Abraham’s ‘FIRSTBORN’) until he sinned by bullying Isaac. After Ismael was sent away along with his slave mother, Isaac became THE MOST BELOVED (FIRSTBORN) of Abraham.

When Reuben was first born to Jacob (Now called Israel), Jacob said that Rueben was his ‘Power and Strength’. But Rueben sinned gravely …. Joseph then became the Father FIRST LOVE…’FIRSTBORN’.

Why am I having to explain all this to you … it’s all in the Scriptures … Any even courtesy reading tells what I’m showing you…. And you ask me to effectively ‘prove it to you!’.

You are saying that you did not know these things … and you do not believe these things I’m showing you??

• ‘The first sins… and another is brought up to replace him!’

You do not understand his that saying pertains to scriptures?

• ‘The First Adam brought death to all mankind by sinning… the Last Adam brought salvation to all mankind by not sinning…’ (paraphrased)
• ‘The sinful flesh came first and brought death - but afterwards the Spirit came giving life’ (paraphrased)

The man, Adam, brought sin into the world … the man, Jesus Christ, by not sinning and giving his life as a ransom, brought redemption by becoming a REBORN MAN WITH LIFEGIVING SPIRIT: The most beloved of all creations of God… The First to be REBORN from the dead and thus has precedence over all who come afterwards.

In Gen 49:3 Jacob applauds his FIRST BORN son, Rueben, as being his FIRSTBORN.
Here we see the two uses of the split word/s ‘FIRST BORN’ and ‘FIRSTBORN’. I’m sure by now you can tell his it works.

In Psalm 89:27, God states that the Messiah WILL BE APPOINTED as His FIRSTBORN.
I’m sure you can understand that this means such as ‘Most Glorious, and MOST LOVED’! It cannot be that God is appointing the Messiah to be FIRST BORN as there is no context for ‘birth’.

In Exodus 4:22, God states that ‘Israel’ is His FIRSTBORN… again, that context is to be taken as ‘MOST LOVED’ [Nation] from among all nations - and for sure, Israel was not the FIRST nation in the world.

Thanks for asking. Hope all this helps!

 

[Dimi95]

@Soapy
I agree with what you say
But you are missing one thing
Adam was made of dust , and Jesus had a mother , he was born in natural order.
And that changes everything..

 

[Soapy]

@Soapy
I agree with what you say
But you are missing one thing
Adam was made of dust , and Jesus had a mother , he was born in natural order.
And that changes everything..

If you agree with the general then all you need are the specifics.

Jesus was not born ‘in natural order’.

This is why Jesus is likened to Melkizedek. If the parentage through the Father is unknown (because Jews are very Patriarchal-based) then it is claimed that the child has no parentage.

How do you claim a parentage from ‘GOD’?
It is by Spiritual context!

How do you claim ‘God is my Father’.
It is by Spiritual context!

The problem with the mass majority of debators is that they do not seem to understand that Jesus is always speaking SPIRITUALLY.

Almost EVERYTHING that Jesus speaks about has SPIRITUAL at its core. Jesus rarely speaks of things of the flesh as a point to his speeches.

When Jesus says, ‘God is my Father’, he doesn’t mean that God physically impregnated a human female and he was the procreated offspring. God cannot ‘Procreate’. Procreation is a HUMAN Male to HUMAN Female act.

Jesus was CREATED not PROCREATED!!

The Spirit of God is the power of God in activeness, working, actioning, in the world, We see the first human was CREATED by the actioning of the Spirit of God on inert matter (Dust of the earth fashioned as a body).

In the same way, the egg in a woman is the building blocks of a body… factory material … that requires an agent to ENLIVEN it.

In humanity, that ENERGISING, ENLIVENING, ACTIVATING agent is the Sperm from the man. The sperm is active, energetic, living… When it penetrates the egg, the egg is ALSO enlivened and begins to split and split and partition and becomes an embryo and a foetus.

Unless the egg is thus fertilised it simply is flushed away out of the woman. You may or may not know it but in the normal course of activities in the man, the Sperm is not flushed away but is RE-ABSORBED within the body of the man.

So, what do we summaries…?

Jesus was prophesied to be from unknown parentage:

• ‘The scriptures say that when the messiah comes we will not know where his is from!!’

But Jesus was ‘adopted’ by Joseph to save SOCIAL EMBARRASSMENT. God is not concerned with such triffling humanness so let us also dispense with the Jewish queasiness!! You can see that Jesus also does not care for it either since he, at no time, is ever reported to have spoken about Joseph being his Father let alone, step-Father - hence, once again, Jesus is seeking only the Spiritual element concerning his birth:

• ‘I do only what the Father shows me’
• ‘My Father sent me…’
• ‘I speak only what my Father taught me to speak’
• ‘I am going TO my Father’ (not ‘BACK TO’ my Father)

Everything is in accordance with scriptures:

• ‘The first Adam sinned and brought eternal death to all mankind’
• ‘The Second /Last Adam … did not sin but saved mankind from eternal death’ (paraphrased)

Note how scriptures sets this out in the book of Esther:

• ‘Haman wrote a false edict such that all the Jews should be killed’
• ‘Mordeciah wrote a second edicts which saved all the Jews from death’

Who cannot understand such prophesies?
Do you see them as childish, amusing, time-passing stories… or inspirational passages for all humanity to learn about God’s ways: ‘One fails and another saves’!! One who was nearest to the king sinned… and was deposed… Another was raised up in position to be next to the king and who succeeds to overturn the sinful failure of the first!

 

[Dimi95]

I hear you , but hear me out also..

The thing that you are missing here is the Victory , the Glorious Victory of God.

First , by natural order i meant that he came out as everyone of us today , threw his mother womb.And she was Virgin,i repeat VIRGIN.
We forget the importance of the details and how powerfull they are.
He came out of the most pure Women in Human history.
God's Power(Spirit) in the most pure Women that walked on this Earth.What comes out , when you combine the two?
Wonder of Wonders he said.
What is Wonder of Wonders? Describe me please..
Why chosing Mary , what's the ultimate reason , why specificly Mary?
Why he chosed that , to what final purpose?
When you understand that God has unlimited Power , you can't understand his choice.
God could chose anyone else , but he chose the purest , and that my friend is for a reason if you understand the greatness of his power.
What does Salvation mean , who give's it?
Who saves us?

Let me go to context and we can discuss it:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

What did God mean by "God saw that the light was good" i leave it to you..

So remember everything that is pointed here.

And we go to the Gospel of John:
(Find the word from Genesis)
Chapter 1:
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,and the Wordwas God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing came to be.
What came to be hrough him was life,
and this life was the light of the human race;the light shines in the darkness
and the darkness has not overcome it.
A man named John was sent from GOD.
He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
He was in the world,and the world came to be through him,but the world did not know him.He came to what was his own,but his own people did not accept him.But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.
And the Word became flesh

Let's go to the things that nobody wants to discuss.
We go to the authencity of his words , and how SPIRITUAL they ware.
So you pointed everything about the Father , let me point something out.


"Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me."
I have told you this while I am with you.
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that told you.
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you.Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
You heard me tell you, ‘I am going away and I will come back to you.If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
And now I have told you this before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe.
I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming. He has no power over me.
but the world must know that I love the Father and that I do just as the Father has commanded me.

So i will explain shortly to you why we belive Jesus is God.
So when we follow God from Genesis 1:1 , we follow instructions, not what occurs to us.We follow , you must understand that.
Jesus says that he is doing just as the Father commanded him , so why would the Father commanded him to say that he he is greater then him , but at the same time he has no power over him? What can that cause to the human mind ?
Why did the Father commanded him to say that the only way to him ist Christ , and only him.
and when Jesus said that he is doing what his Father commanded him , why did he said the world must know?

What does that "must know" mean?

I am waiting for you to answer and we will continue..

 

[Soapy]

I hear you , but hear me out also..

The thing that you are missing here is the Victory , the Glorious Victory of God.

First , by natural order i meant that he came out as everyone of us today , threw his mother womb.And she was Virgin,i repeat VIRGIN.
We forget the importance of the details and how powerfull they are.
He came out of the most pure Women in Human history.
God's Power(Spirit) in the most pure Women that walked on this Earth.What comes out , when you combine the two?
Wonder of Wonders he said.
What is Wonder of Wonders? Describe me please..
Why chosing Mary , what's the ultimate reason , why specificly Mary?
Why he chosed that , to what final purpose?
When you understand that God has unlimited Power , you can't understand his choice.
God could chose anyone else , but he chose the purest , and that my friend is for a reason if you understand the greatness of his power.
What does Salvation mean , who give's it?
Who saves us?

Let me go to context and we can discuss it:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

What did God mean by "God saw that the light was good" i leave it to you..

So remember everything that is pointed here.

And we go to the Gospel of John:
(Find the word from Genesis)
Chapter 1:
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,and the Wordwas God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing came to be.
What came to be hrough him was life,
and this life was the light of the human race;the light shines in the darkness
and the darkness has not overcome it.
A man named John was sent from GOD.
He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
He was in the world,and the world came to be through him,but the world did not know him.He came to what was his own,but his own people did not accept him.But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.
And the Word became flesh

Let's go to the things that nobody wants to discuss.
We go to the authencity of his words , and how SPIRITUAL they ware.
So you pointed everything about the Father , let me point something out.


"Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me."
I have told you this while I am with you.
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that told you.
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you.Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
You heard me tell you, ‘I am going away and I will come back to you.If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
And now I have told you this before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe.
I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming. He has no power over me.
but the world must know that I love the Father and that I do just as the Father has commanded me.

So i will explain shortly to you why we belive Jesus is God.
So when we follow God from Genesis 1:1 , we follow instructions, not what occurs to us.We follow , you must understand that.
Jesus says that he is doing just as the Father commanded him , so why would the Father commanded him to say that he he is greater then him , but at the same time he has no power over him? What can that cause to the human mind ?
Why did the Father commanded him to say that the only way to him ist Christ , and only him.
and when Jesus said that he is doing what his Father commanded him , why did he said the world must know?

What does that "must know" mean?

I am waiting for you to answer and we will continue..

I think you need to go back to junior school and learn your scriptures from a grown up and God-fearing individual.

Have a re-read of what you wrote and think about how senseless it seems now!

 

[Dimi95]

I think you need to go back to junior school and learn your scriptures from a grown up and God-fearing individual.

Have a re-read of what you wrote and think about how senseless it seems now!

1:1
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

What is Elohim,please tell me?
What Elohim means?

Your first answer is offense , that tells me something.

You are telling me that i am intentionally misguided?

That's your view of God?

That's what you learn from God? To offend people and threat them like this? Because they have something better then you?

You don't understand the consequence of your sayings.

How far are you willing to go to prove me wrong?

I will remind you something :

"Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves."

"There is no fear in love , but perfect love casts out fear..."

Or you won't accept his teaching for everything?

 

[Soapy]

1:1
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

What is Elohim,please tell me?
What Elohim means?

Your first answer is offense , that tells me something.

You are telling me that i am intentionally misguided?

That's your view of God?

That's what you learn from God? To offend people and threat them like this? Because they have something better then you?

You don't understand the consequence of your sayings.

How far are you willing to go to prove me wrong?

I will remind you something :

"Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves."

"There is no fear in love , but perfect love casts out fear..."

Or you won't accept his teaching for everything?

You claim your own failings….

You are telling me that i am intentionally misguided?

I did not say anything about being ‘intentionally’ being misguided.

I just insinuated that you were very much misguided and should seek professional help to find to a fuller understanding.

I said that because what you wrote was complete nonsense. I asked you to reread for yourself what you wrote and see if by rereading it it now still makes sense… you will discover the many errors you made.

 

[Dimi95]

You claim your own failings….

I did not say anything about being ‘intentionally’ being misguided.

I just insinuated that you were very much misguided and should seek professional help to find to a fuller understanding.

I said that because what you wrote was complete nonsense. I asked you to reread for yourself what you wrote and see if by rereading it it now still makes sense… you will discover the many errors you made.

And this is just your way to soften the words.

But i don't take that as intresting.

Instead of answering my question with what you have , you chose to offend me.

How do you know what i have?
You judge a book by it's cover?