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God sacrificed to God?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Faust, Oct 13, 2004.

  1. logos

    logos Member

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    Exactly! God became man because man cannot save himself. It was through one man that sin entered the world and so there was the need for someone who was both human and divine to reconcile us back. Since He was and will now always be both human and divine His death has destroyed death and any of the boundaries that had existed before the Incarnation.
     
  2. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    As i have not believed in Jesus' divinity since i was 14 i find the concept of him being G-d silly. And for that matter being the "son of G-d". Of course he would have called himself the son of G-d, all Jews would say the same thing isn't really that surprising?
     
  3. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    So what's wrong with the covenent that was established in the Old Testament? Please demostrate that "someone both human and divine" is the only solution?

    -pah-
     
  4. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    I can't find any scripture that I feel is the word of God that would back-up any statement of Jesus being the Divine. Although I do believe that Christ was a type of "manifestation of knowing" the true Divine Supreme God Almighty Creator Holy-Spirit. Had we lived during the Gospel times, meeting Jesus Christ in person would be, in a sense, just like meeting God. The Divine's words coming out of a human prophet's mouth during the Old Testament times, I would consider those words to be God even though they articulate from the tongue of a human. Therefore I feel its important to recognize the difference between Jesus Christ and the true Divine just like I would with the Divine's words and the prophet.
     
  5. logos

    logos Member

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    Which covenant are you referring to, there is more than one.

    Thanks
     
  6. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    What comes to mind is that Jesus said you have to lose your life to find it. Maybe God lost his own life to find it again. We did see a kinder gentler God through Jesus.
     
  7. Ernestine

    Ernestine Member

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    Jesus is not God, he is the Son of God. Psalm 83:18 says, "..that people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." It is Jehovah that allowed his son Jesus to come to earth and serve as a ransom sacrifice for us. It is Jehovah who resurrected Jesus to heavenly life after his death. It is Jehovah who will enthrone Jesus as King over his (Jehovah's) earthly Kingdom when it is established. No where does the Bible speak of a trinity--three gods in one. It speaks of Jehovah and Jesus as two different personages. Jesus having been the first creation of Jehovah. It also speaks of Jehovah's holy spirit--his active force that he uses to accomplish his will. Jesus told his followers that if they had seen him, they had seen God--only in that he was the very likeness of his father in love, compassion, long-suffering, humility, etc....I could go on and on.
     
  8. precept

    precept Member

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    John 14:28.....Jesus said "......for my Father is greater than I". He also said in John 13:16...."....The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him"...

    Jesus also said in John 13:20" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send RECEIVETH ME; And He that receiveth me RECEIVETH HIM THAT SENT ME".

    John 1:1...."In the beginning was the 'Word'[Jesus] and the 'Word'[Jesus] was with God[the Father] and the 'Word'[Jesus] was GOD!"

    And Jesus also said in John 10:30...."I and my Father are one". And He also said; John 14:9 that..."He that hath seen me hath seen the Father".

    All the above passages descibe one and the same entity! "PERFECTION AS SEEN IN GOD"
    Jesus made it clear that we His followers must be "Perfect as His Father in heaven is Perfect". Meaning that we his followers Must be also as Perfect as He Jesus is Perfect.
    It was because of Jesus' Perfect abhorrence of sin that made a sinless God allow sinful humanity[with sin nature] to take His life.
    And it is only on sinful humanity's recognition of the Eternal Price paid for sin; and that on humanity's repudiation of sin in equal proportion as its cost; it is only then as humanity abhors sin as His Creator and Redeemer ABHOR SIN, that humanity is brought in ONENESS WITH GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS. It is only in this regard that "redeemed humanity is as Perfect as God".

    If "Perfection" as described by Jesus was impossible; neither would He have enjoined on His followers such a command.

    In summary: BecauseJesus is Perfect as His Father; again meaning He abhors sin; and cannot sin; and because the Nature of God is sinless Perfection; and because there is no greater "atainment in any dimension"--Thus Jesus and His Father are ONE IN EVERY DIMENSION.
    Creative powers occupy a lower dimension which gives Jesus equal Creative powers as His Father; and with "Creative powers" occupying a lower dimension, we humans participate in procreating ourselves. And it is because the above is true that "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made". John 1:1-3

    It is therefore not surprising that we humans are made "partakers of His Divine Nature"...2 Peter 1:4 but which we participate in only if we accept[Receive His Son]. This makes us "joint heirs" with Christ. On becoming "joint heirs" with Christ[we now have received him]and we now also automatically Receive His Father.....meaning that "WE", together with "JESUS" AND HIS FATHER... We all HATE AND ABHOR EVIL AND SIN; and in equal measure. This fact makes "us" and Jesus "One" as Jesus and His Father are "One".

    It is in this regard that Jesus is not "ashamed" to call us "brethren". Because He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified ARE ALL ONE. Hebrews 2:11

    And when we are one with Jesus we are also one with the Father.

    Jesus being equal with His Father is of NO concern to His Father as us "REDEEMED" sinners being equal to Jesus is of No concern to Jesus.


    precept
     
  9. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Yes i agree totally with your post that is the correct meaning from the bible
     
  10. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    I've always seen the crucifiction as a human scape-goat myth. The sins of atribe were somehow heaped upon the goat, who then atoned by his sacrifice.
     
  11. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    The Answer is simple. Jesus was a man, but God had become manifest through him. Or rather He achieved christ consciousness, which is to overcome the ego and embrace everything around himself in compassion, generousity, and humility. He became one with God, and God one with him. "I and the Father are one." -Jesus in John 10:30-33. God is the source of all that exists, as He is the father. But God is not a single being, rather it is the ultimate reality of everything, without form, both "beginning" and "end", it is wholeness, it is connection between everyone and everything that exists. To be united with God, is to unite yourself with everything around you, "to make the outside like the inside", because all things created are from God and a part of Him, His essence, they are facets of His expression. These are the roots of the Divine nature:

    [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]-Jesus in Matthew 5:43-48 43 [/font]

    Naturally, because people are not able to percieve this, they understood as Jesus himself was God. But God is within all of us (divine immanence), and becomes manifest at ego-death. To achieve such, is to become a son or daughter of God.

    The ego (narcissism) is the source of all human downfall. The motive for all sin is selfishness/ego. (Satan is mythology and symbolically represents the ego). To become reborn again is to wash away the ego, to put others above your own self, and ultimately become a living sacrafice.

    "The kingdom of heaven is spread out all over the earth, but people do not see it." -Jesus in the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas

    It cannot be grasped by phsyical eyes, but only spiritual eyes can see it. It is about a connection to everyone and everthing, it is about wholeness. It is about embracing everything and everyone around you in compassion, instead of isolating yourself in selfishness. It is realizing the totality of existance, that we all come from the same source, and dissolve back to the same.

    Jesus made an example. There are two different types of christians, those who worship Jesus, and those who emulate Jesus.

    [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me."[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] - Jesus in Mathew 15:8[/font]
     
  12. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Faust,

    This is a substitutionary atonement theory of Christianity. I have a feeling that you've been talking to a lot of Evangelicals, and they this model almost exclusively (I know, because I used to be one). It was pretty much created in its modern form by Anslem (the bits and pieces to make it did exist before hand). It is *not* the Ancient Christian perspective (neither are a lot of other Evan. positions).

    In antiquity, Christians believed that humanity was created in union with God. The Eastern Fathers taught that Adam wasn't created perfect, but was created in the image and likeness of God. "Image" referred to our capacity to be like God, and "likeness" referred to how much like Him we are. On the latter, there is always room to grow more godlike, but it is dependent on the "Image of God."

    When man rebelled, the "image" of God was broken. Humanity no longer had access to the divine nature or power. Without this image, we could no longer become like God anymore. We cannot elevate ourselves up to the level of the uncreated to bring Him down to us for reunion, so all that remained was for the Creator to come to the creature. In so doing, God restored our lost participation in the divine nature back to us, though not without struggle on our part.

    Here are some interesting quotes:

    As a note germane to the discussion here, "by glory and virtue" can just as easily be translated "unto His own glory and virtue" (Gk.: idia doxe kai arete). I won't normally present "Greek" stuff unless it applies directly here, and this does.

    "Right" in v. 12 is "exousia," which may also denote "capability" as well as "right" or authoritative power.

    Clement does not mean that we become what God is, or that God brought Himself up from our status, but rather, that by descending to humanity, humanity has been enabled to become like God. Only God will ever be self-existant, the Creator, and so on. Humanity will always be dependent on God for everything he has, will always be a creature, and so on.

    St. Athanasius used this belief extensively in the 4th century, and has explained this far better than I, and lest someone object to him, let them remember that it was Athanasius who first ever proposed the modern NT in his festal letters. We are dependant on him for our NT. Here's a rather short treatise of his on the subject of God becoming man:
    http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/ontheincarnation.html

    Here is a brief treatise on pen-sub, and its differences from more traditional Christianity (This is a modern article):
    http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html

    Dr. Kalomiros' article is harsh, and he has always been Orthodox, but for the most part, it is an inciteful article, especially for those who hold to a pen-sub view.

    Now, hopefully this response has cleared up the Christian teaching on why God became a man...at least as it has historically been taught by the Orthodox Church.
     
  13. Ark

    Ark Member

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    Amazing how many in the west NEED to think that Jesus is God rather than what the Bible explicitly states - that he is the SON of God. Is it some simplified justification for a "more perfect" zionistic faith born of egotism? After all...if the indigenous of the Americas are basically moreso of an "Old Testament" type faith, then there is nothing new other than the introduction of the SON of the Creator who gives testamony. Nothing to justify any religious superiority.

    I once walked through a gathering of "Christians" and asked their head speaker why they believed that Jesus was the Creator/God. His reply was that it was a "neat way of looking at it".

    Any wonder why many in the Middle East become quite frustrated with those in the West? :banghead3
     
  14. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    That's oversimplifying things a little.

    In Eastern Europe, the Russian Orthodox Church believes that Jesus is God. The Greek Orthodox Church does. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church does. In short all of the Orthodox Churches do in Eastern Europe.

    In the Middle East, the same thing occurs. The Antiochian Orthodox Church believes He is God. The Non-Chalcedonian Churches do as well. So, the Assyrian Church does (and they are the dominant Christian group in Iraq). The Coptic Church does (in Egypt). Heck, even in India, the indigenous church believes that Jesus is God.

    Today, the only Christians in these areas that don't believe Jesus is God are those that are part of sects introduced from the West. All the indigenous (and traditional) churches believe it. It would seem, then, that the truth of the matter is the polar opposite of what you just said.
     
  15. Ark

    Ark Member

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    Firstly, I am personally not a believer. I either know something is true or I do not. I can also admit when I am wrong, because truth is most important to my sense of honor and integrity.

    However, I hardly think that a statement that much of Islam believes that Jesus is God is anywhere near accurate. Neither is any statement regarding the indigenous of the Americas believing it. The Wahabi Muslims, who although recognize Jesus as a good prophet, do not recognize him as even being the SON of God.

    Certainly, one can always provide an opposing viewpoint of most anything, because little in this world is simple...not even a "simple" statement. But the best viewpoint is one in which a matter has been examined from ALL angles of viewpoint and an ultimate assessment has been made by their weight in regard to truth, or ones desired goal. My truth is in actually knowing some indigenous people in Americas and actually knowing some people of Islam. My desired goal is as I have stated...the goal of Salvation. Salvation for ALL people.
     
  16. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I think you misunderstood me. I wrote:

    I was referring only to the native Christian groups. Islam came after that, and I never mentioned the Native Americans.

    You mentioned that "many in the west NEED" to believe in the deity of Christ. You later asked the rhetorical question "Any wonder why many in the Middle East become frustrated with those in the West?" However, when you portray this as a western "need," you misunderstand or misrepresent the facts.

    Belief in the Deity of Christ is an ancient, and central, part of Christianity. It isn't some facet introduced by the West. It predates the Western sects that dispute it, and is universally believed by the churches indeginous to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. It predates Islam. Before Muhammed created his faith, Christians had already believed it.

    You may not be a believer, but if your desire is to examine a belief from all points of view, then I don't think you can isolate the belief in the Deity of Christ as a Western phenomona. Further, talking to a single pastor who just calls it "neat" won't help there either. You'd get something very different from an Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Coptic, or other type of ancient church. Heck, I posted the answer I've learned earlier in this thread.

    It is not a belief originating in the West. It is the Christian belief.
     
  17. Ark

    Ark Member

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    It may have originated in the East, but not by the majority. Still, I am correct the fact that much of the Christian west over-exemplified that baseless "theory".

    I suppose that no-one loves an angry God...so they can bend truth to any form they wish?

    I am already well-versed in the Zionistic approach to power over the masses of the world, it has been going on for quite some time. The indigenous of the American continents are simply a good example. It matters little if Muhammed was duped into, or fabricated a "religion" AFTER the time of Jesus' resurrection. Anyone who reads the Bible objectively does not see that it states Jesus is both the father God and the son of God. This is the work of the "devil" who desires earthly control. Who promotes to the many that they do indeed..."knoweth the lord".
     
  18. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    First, Ark, what the heck is the "Zionist" stuff? I don't get that, and I never have. I hope that you aren't saying what I think you're saying.

    As for the Bible not teaching Jesus is God the Father, no it doesn't, but the New Testament is quite explicit on His deity. I explained the Orthodox take on the Deity of Christ earlier in this thread, and I do hold to that position (not the pen-sub position).

    It's not the result of a conspiracy or power-play to control the masses, either. It's simply the ancient Christian way of looking at things.
     
  19. Greyprophet

    Greyprophet Member

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    Let him who has ears to hear...hear.

    God did seperate himself up into many sentient beings. For God was alone at one point...

    Satan is a very powerful spiritual being..who is a part of God just as you are.

    Something horrible and terrifying happend long ago...there was a war in heaven (call it what you will).

    God would be the biggest hypocrite in the world if he did NOT come down and live as a man. How could he possibly judge...or understand his creation if he did not come down and live as one of his creation. If you all think about this...it is the greatest love.

    Satan and his angels ordained the Laws. God himself is the only one who could ever hold them all,...and he knew it. Apparently this is a big "Trial" to see what we think about the true god. Is he a murderer or all Love.

    Is there a God at all?

    He chooses whom he chooses and pre-destinates whom he pre-destinates.

    We must trust as children. Jesus is the lamb ...the light...the word. In him is the only hope. The world is a carcass. All things here die...end...and usually in tragedy. All story's end in tragedy...for who does not die? Or have loved ones die around you as we journey? THis world looks beautiful on the outside...but is in fact only Death.

    If there is no God...and in particular no Christ.....we are in a completely desperate situation. For we are intellegent enough to see that the road ends...and goes right off a bottomless cliff (death im speaking of).

    So one just deludes themselves to think this world a wonderful place. Sure trees are pretty, sky is wonderful..people can even be loving at times...but it all ends in death. For who will not die? You? Your dog? Your mother? Its dung.

    Let us all hope with all our hearts Christ is in fact who he said he was...if he is not, we are all doomed to death or the equivalent...NOTHING.

    Let him who has ears to hear...hear.
     
  20. Ark

    Ark Member

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    I perhaps shouldn't use the word "Zionist". It sounds too anti-semitic...which I am not.

    I have no problem with the "deity" of Jesus either. I simply tend to hold that there are far too many who have the wrong interpretation of Religion and their "Christian" perspectives are rather phoney...even spiritually dry.

    There are some I have met on the planet, (even those who call themselves the descendents of the "Wise Men"), who are deeply concerned about the lack of good spiritual education in much of the world. Even much of the world which professes knowledge, but simply has the wrong outlook on many very important perspectives. Perspectives which are crucial to the good expedience of Salvation.

    Getting the children of this world to a better one is no joke or small task, and human ego should not be a determining factor regarding this objective.
     
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