God Proof - Take 1

[dfnj]

Hey, I'm new to this forum and I'd like to kick around some ideas. Not looking for a fight and I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of dogmatism, but if you help me sharpen some of my ideas, I would greatly appreciate it. Here's a proof that I accept for the existence of God. It's basically based on rationalism, as I understand it. If you see points of error or need for clarification, please share. Thanks!

Definition - God is the self-sufficient existence of general consistency

1. Rational reason assumes all reality is generally consistent (with self and other reality)
2. This means all of reality exists in a manner that respects general consistency
3. Things exist (eg your thinking about this God proof)
4. Things that exist have a nature that is either arbitrary (bounded by something other than itself) or non-arbitrary (bounded only by itself)
5. All arbitrary things are ultimately contingent upon some non-arbitrary thing. This is because either
   1. An arbitrary thing has a finite number of arbitrary things in a chain of causes
   2. An arbitrary thing has an infinite number of arbitrary things in its chain of causes. This means the thing is defined as the consequence of its infinite chain of causes, thus the thing is equivalent to the infinite chain of causes in a generally consistent reality. This chain is not bounded by anything outside the chain and therefore is non-arbitrary. Thus the thing, which is the chain, is non-arbitrary.
6. Since (1) some thing(s) exist, (2) all things are either arbitrary or non-arbitrary, (3) all arbitrary things are contingent upon some non-arbitrary thing, then there must exist some thing that is non-arbitrary.
7. God is the non-arbitrary thing that is self sufficient (being non-arbitrary) and generally consistent.

I do not see that it follows that just because bla bla bla then "then there must exist some thing that is non-arbitrary." It seems to me it is purely subjective are arbitrary to dub something as arbitrary or non-arbitrary. By the same chain of reason to include how we formulated our choices, then you could argue everything is non-arbitrary because we have no choice in thinking things are arbitrary and finite. This is because we are finite.

Also, your conclusion "God is the bla bla bla" has problems because you are using the word God to mean "plain old existence". Essentially your argument becomes God exist because existence exists and God is all of existence. All sounds and rings true as you read it but there is no way to know or prove that it is perfectly true.

 

[dfnj]

Prove it. Wait... you can't.

We may well BE in Matrix.

We do not live in a matrix. Nothing in reality ever rewinds and perfectly repeats itself in the exact same sequence. Time only goes in one direction. Everything else is imaginary BS.

 

[dfnj]

Hey, I'm new to this forum and I'd like to kick around some ideas. Not looking for a fight and I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of dogmatism, but if you help me sharpen some of my ideas, I would greatly appreciate it. Here's a proof that I accept for the existence of God. It's basically based on rationalism, as I understand it. If you see points of error or need for clarification, please share. Thanks!

Definition - God is the self-sufficient existence of general consistency

1. Rational reason assumes all reality is generally consistent (with self and other reality)
2. This means all of reality exists in a manner that respects general consistency
3. Things exist (eg your thinking about this God proof)
4. Things that exist have a nature that is either arbitrary (bounded by something other than itself) or non-arbitrary (bounded only by itself)
5. All arbitrary things are ultimately contingent upon some non-arbitrary thing. This is because either
   1. An arbitrary thing has a finite number of arbitrary things in a chain of causes
   2. An arbitrary thing has an infinite number of arbitrary things in its chain of causes. This means the thing is defined as the consequence of its infinite chain of causes, thus the thing is equivalent to the infinite chain of causes in a generally consistent reality. This chain is not bounded by anything outside the chain and therefore is non-arbitrary. Thus the thing, which is the chain, is non-arbitrary.
6. Since (1) some thing(s) exist, (2) all things are either arbitrary or non-arbitrary, (3) all arbitrary things are contingent upon some non-arbitrary thing, then there must exist some thing that is non-arbitrary.
7. God is the non-arbitrary thing that is self sufficient (being non-arbitrary) and generally consistent.

I will give you a better proof for the existence of God: God is just a word. Nobody denies the existence of God. What the word God means is defined by every sentence the word God has been used in. God is different than every other word in the dictionary in the sense that the word God represents every possible God is a word that represents every possible experience we can have inside and outside of our minds.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I wonder why you guys need such complicated arguments that a generic God, which could be any sort of character, exists when all you have to do is provide some evidence of Jesus and His miracles. Or of Allah, Apollo, the great Juju, or whomever theists believe in.

It is like using cosmology, philosophy, logic atc. to prove the existence of generic cars, and their properties, when all you have to do is show your Ford. Seems like a waste of time to me, if you really had enough evidence for any particular God that could possibly justify your particular faith in Him.

So, where is your Ford?

Ciao

- viole

One Ford proves the existence of all generic cars?

If Jesus appeared to you as a miracle, you would trust Him, rather than claim, "Just had a hallucination, I have to stop smoking pot so much."?

What evidence would you need to prove that God exists, bearing in mind that to you, it is internally evident that you exist, and to me, it is internally evident that God exists?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

We do not live in a matrix. Nothing in reality ever rewinds and perfectly repeats itself in the exact same sequence. Time only goes in one direction. Everything else is imaginary BS.

As far as we can remember.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

One Ford proves the existence of all generic cars?

If Jesus appeared to you as a miracle, you would trust Him, rather than claim, "Just had a hallucination, I have to stop smoking pot so much."?

What evidence would you need to prove that God exists, bearing in mind that to you, it is internally evident that you exist, and to me, it is internally evident that God exists?

Have this ... "god" say "hi!" to everyone on the planet, at the same time, in each person's language. Without cacophony, and without ambiguity. A god would not only know how to do this? But would have already done it-- many times over.

Anything less? Is Playing Special Favorites. Which even toddlers recognize as patently and fundamentally Unfair.

Being unfair is NOT an attribute you want, in an All Powerful being...!

 

[Segev Moran]

I think you really made it much more complex than it is
I would try and simplify the terms you used.

 

[viole]

One Ford proves the existence of all generic cars?

If Jesus appeared to you as a miracle, you would trust Him, rather than claim, "Just had a hallucination, I have to stop smoking pot so much."?

What evidence would you need to prove that God exists, bearing in mind that to you, it is internally evident that you exist, and to me, it is internally evident that God exists?

Nope. It would prove the existence of cars.

Even better, it would justify your faith in fords.

Evidence that god exists? I would be impressed if you guys get a revelation tonight that makes you believe in the same god tomorrow. Instead of that babel of mutually contradicting gods you believe in.

But as long as you don’t, I will simply make the logical assumption that your beliefs are just an accident of birth and of being in culture X instead of culture Y. And that you are all equally wrong.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Valjean]

We do not live in a matrix. Nothing in reality ever rewinds and perfectly repeats itself in the exact same sequence. Time only goes in one direction. Everything else is imaginary BS.

And God doesn't play dice...

 

[BilliardsBall]

Have this ... "god" say "hi!" to everyone on the planet, at the same time, in each person's language. Without cacophony, and without ambiguity. A god would not only know how to do this? But would have already done it-- many times over.

Anything less? Is Playing Special Favorites. Which even toddlers recognize as patently and fundamentally Unfair.

Being unfair is NOT an attribute you want, in an All Powerful being...!

Bob, speaking of favorites, again you have created a condition you insist your superior obey. Why is that?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Nope. It would prove the existence of cars.

Even better, it would justify your faith in fords.

Evidence that god exists? I would be impressed if you guys get a revelation tonight that makes you believe in the same god tomorrow. Instead of that babel of mutually contradicting gods you believe in.

But as long as you don’t, I will simply make the logical assumption that your beliefs are just an accident of birth and of being in culture X instead of culture Y. And that you are all equally wrong.

Ciao

- viole

What would you consider evidence that God exists? I'm satisfied, you are not. What is it you seek? Or are you done seeking entirely?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Bob, speaking of favorites, again you have created a condition you insist your superior obey. Why is that?

To qualify for the title "god"? Any being must therefore, act Godly.

Your god? Doesn't even make the top 10.

 

[BilliardsBall]

To qualify for the title "god"? Any being must therefore, act Godly.

Your god? Doesn't even make the top 10.

I worship the Christian God, who does all He promises in the Bible and nothing besides. You are still at the (respectfully, juvenile) level of "God doesn't do my will, despite whether it's biblical."

 

[viole]

What would you consider evidence that God exists? I'm satisfied, you are not. What is it you seek? Or are you done seeking entirely?

I told you. If all theists wake up tomorrow and convert simultaneously to the same God, I might reconsider.

And what do you mean with seeking? There is nothing to seek.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I worship the Christian God, who does all He promises in the Bible and nothing besides. You are still at the (respectfully, juvenile) level of "God doesn't do my will, despite whether it's biblical."

You could not possibly be more wrong. The bible *clearly* gives the Magical Formula for Wishing.

"Ask anything in the name of Jesus, and it will immediately be granted"

That's in there-- in your bible-- a literal promise by your god.

THAT IS NEVER-EVER-EVER GRANTED.

Proof? Every time a child of a christian like YOU, dies. You cannot get MORE definitive proof that you are WRONG. The bible's god NEVER answers prayers-- in spite of promises to do so.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I told you. If all theists wake up tomorrow and convert simultaneously to the same God, I might reconsider.

And what do you mean with seeking? There is nothing to seek.

Ciao

- viole

Interesting, I remember instead of insisting the world conform, I thought, "Even if every Jew disagrees with me and with each other, if Jesus is the Messiah, I will trust Him."

 

[BilliardsBall]

You could not possibly be more wrong. The bible *clearly* gives the Magical Formula for Wishing.

"Ask anything in the name of Jesus, and it will immediately be granted"

That's in there-- in your bible-- a literal promise by your god.

THAT IS NEVER-EVER-EVER GRANTED.

Proof? Every time a child of a christian like YOU, dies. You cannot get MORE definitive proof that you are WRONG. The bible's god NEVER answers prayers-- in spite of promises to do so.

Huh? You may have missed a verse (or several hundreds in both testaments) regarding God's will and how to pray--"thy Kingdom come, THY will be done..."

But I did receive a boon recently in prayer. God told me He was tired of you fighting Him and was going to kill you this week. I interceded. You got a pass!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Huh? You may have missed a verse (or several hundreds in both testaments) regarding God's will and how to pray--"thy Kingdom come, THY will be done...".

Except none of that is present next to, or near, the actual promise of Wish Granted. Nice attempt to "explain" a 100% bible promise failure, but what can you do? The bible is chock-full of similar failures of it's god to deliver....

No, really, the verse is not at all what you think it is.

But I did receive a boon recently in prayer. God told me He was tired of you fighting Him and was going to kill you this week. I interceded. You got a pass!

Ain't you nice! You just proved-- to 100% -- that you are infinitely more moral that the hideous beast you worship.

Ain't that cute? But it's true-- most humans are far more moral than the bible's god-- who is so immoral, it demands constant attention, or else it will torture you forever.

Your god is so over the top: A finite life, with infinite punishment, for a failure to be ... gullible.

If your god was Just? It would prove it exists, without ambiguity. Since the consequences (supposedly) are so dire.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Except none of that is present next to, or near, the actual promise of Wish Granted. Nice attempt to "explain" a 100% bible promise failure, but what can you do? The bible is chock-full of similar failures of it's god to deliver....

No, really, the verse is not at all what you think it is.


Ain't you nice! You just proved-- to 100% -- that you are infinitely more moral that the hideous beast you worship.

Ain't that cute? But it's true-- most humans are far more moral than the bible's god-- who is so immoral, it demands constant attention, or else it will torture you forever.

Your god is so over the top: A finite life, with infinite punishment, for a failure to be ... gullible.

If your god was Just? It would prove it exists, without ambiguity. Since the consequences (supposedly) are so dire.

Philosophy aside, can you share some facts? It looks like instead, you are sharing rhetoric.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Philosophy aside, can you share some facts? It looks like instead, you are sharing rhetoric.

Fact: Children of Good Christian parents die every year, from god-preventable diseases.

Fact: Children are abused and raped by Good Christian Men Of God every year, and god does zip to stop them. Free will? What about the Free Will of the abused victims?

Fact: Children of Good Christian parents are starving all over the world--even in the USA. All god needs to do, is answer the prayers of the parents for a better job, or rain for the crops, or other god things.

All of the above? Pretty much shows there are no gods who answer prayers.

But never mind THAT:

FACT: Most humans, if given a chance, would CURE diseases in children, even without payment.

FACT: Most humans, if they know about it, would PREVENT children from becoming victims.

FACT: Most humans would feed starving children, if they had the means.

FACT: HUMANS ARE MORE MORAL THAN YOUR GOD.