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God or was it always there?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by TheReligionofFour, Jan 11, 2012.

  1. TheReligionofFour

    TheReligionofFour New Member

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    99
    Energy cannot be created or destroyed, yet we are here, so how did that happen you think?

    1-God
    2-It was always there.

    So it was either God or the universe was always there, which do you think it is, why, and is there proof behind it?

    This will settle, many, many things.


    On a side note:

    I think it was God, according to my lfie experiences, but I'm sure that atheists who have not had any experiences with God may lead them to think otherwise :(

    How do we help them?
     
  2. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    18,748
    I think a lot of atheists can have very fulfilling lifes. Actually, it has been proven that buddhist monks can achieve by meditation a level of hapiness that most of us can barely dream about (done by cable thingies in brain while they meditated :D ) so I don´t think they need "God".

    More on topic, as a panentheist, I would believe God and the universe are one, and both always existed.
     
  3. TheReligionofFour

    TheReligionofFour New Member

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    99
    You try not believing in anything and not feeling empty.

    Monks? They're so boring...i'm sure if they achieved a happiness level we can only dream about, theyre ways would be more famous no?
     
  4. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    18,748
    What do you think buddhism has been rising in good advertising? :D

    Actually, letm e get you some google links, I´ll be back with that.

    About "not believing in anything" that´s false. They believe in a LOT of things. God is just not among them :shrug:

    I´ve seen a lot of happy atheists and miserable and despicable theists. The mere believ ein God doesn´t say mucch about a person just by itself. Many atheists I´ve seen much more appreciative and gratefull to the world around them than most theists.

    You are making one belief into too big of a thing.
     
  5. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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  6. TheReligionofFour

    TheReligionofFour New Member

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    99
    I think you should read my comment of how someone would perceive life without any consecuence at all of an afterlife.

    "If you are smart, and can get away with crimes, and dont care about an afterlife because u dont think there will be one, whats stopping you? youve got nothing to lose and much to gain, if youre "smart"

    ^ people agree that it is a fair point.

    I would feel so pathetic being an athesist so BLIND to logic, its just so obvious to me by just openning my eyes, thinking about the universe, even about biology, phisics, that there is something more.

    I can't seem to find any sign of intelligence in the universe other than me? Shame on me!
     
  7. InformedIgnorance

    InformedIgnorance Do you 'know' or believe?

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    3,740
    Personally I do not believe to be 'help'ed or saved or so forth.... and indeed it is a little insulting for you to suggest as much.

    But to the point at hand, one of the words you mentioned in your alternative explanation to creation by god is 'always', now always is a term that relates to time and time is among the least understood of all phenomenon in existence and this proves essential in discussions about the origin of existence and therefore many of the 'proofs' of the existence of some god.

    Your argument essentially rests upon a certain view of the nature of time, that it is a single continuum with a beginning and potentially an end. There are however other models of time, personally I ascribe to a model of time with a beginning, simply because I find that more appealing to me and research into the nature of time is very inconclusive - this model of time is not supported by any real evidence, but so far as I can determine it does not contradict any real evidence either, while enabling me to examine to creation myths in a meaningful way without contradicting their very premises nor my understanding of the laws of nature and simple logic. This is a position of practicality in relation to philosophical undertakings and discussion rather than a true statement of my beliefs of the origin of existence.

    If at any stage there was 'nothing' in existence, then either our understanding of the laws surrounding the preservation of energy and matter are incorrect or else there was something that surpassed those laws.

    However, there is NOTHING to suggest that there has ever been a stage where 'nothing' existed (no the big bang does not support this position and does not explain where all matter comes from, but rather how the matter/energy that does exist changed its configuration from one format modelled on our assumptions of the laws of nature to its current perceived configuration).
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  8. TheReligionofFour

    TheReligionofFour New Member

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    99
    So...just sitting down and focusing on breathing for some minutes makes you happier?
     
  9. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    But a lot of atheists are good because they feel compassion towards others and emphathy. emphaty and compassion give you an immidiate emotional reward for being good, instead of a reward you´ll get when you die.

    About "what´s stopping you" a lot of religious people have little to nothing stoping them ideologically to be bad people, as long as they "repent" after it. A catholic has confession, and a protestant thinks that by faith alone he is saved. If he sins, he is just being himself, as sinning is natural to man.

    Now I am not saying that a theist is worst morally than an atheist, I am saying that you can be an **** both being a theist or an atheist.

    Ultimately, it depends on how much you can care about others, not because of an afterlife reward, but because being moral is what feels right to you.

    True moral doesn´t come from intelectual rules but mostly from intuitions and feelings of the heart.

    I advice you to choose a specific thread to say how silly atheism seems to you and leave the obvious repulsion/pitty/you-name-it you give to it to that specific thread, otherwise the point of everythread will end up being why do you have such a problem with atheists.
     
  10. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    18,748
    Yes.

    That said, for some people may take some weeks. But yes, that´s true, and I can say I know it not only because of the scientific evidence I resented you, but also because I´ve practiced it.

    Hapiness is within :)
     
  11. TheReligionofFour

    TheReligionofFour New Member

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    99
    Excellent, you affirming your disbelief that there was never a time of "nothing" , make the decision lean more toward its obvious there was a supernatural creator because energy exists but cannot be created.

    As for the helping or saving, imagine if you think you know the truth and if others wont know, you wont be saved! ull obviously tell people.

    That's for mostly christians, i'm sure i feel mroe satisfied then every atheist, and atheists are just so sad to me, i pity them for not being able to appreciate their existence more, especially the possibility of an after life sense energy never goes away.
     
  12. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    You don´t need a creator if energy cannot be created.

    You could just say it was eternally there and has been always moving.
     
  13. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    18,748
    Again, I´ve met very appreciative atheists. The fact that you cannot appreciate life if you were an atheist doesnt mean nobody could. It is not a "logical" thing, appreciation is an EMOTION. That means it is not dependant on anything but you feeling it.

    A lot of people I´ve heard apprciated life a lot more when they became atheists.
     
  14. TheReligionofFour

    TheReligionofFour New Member

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    99
    Did you read the atheist disaproving of "it was always there"?

    And what part of supernatural dont you get? "I dont need a creator if energy cannot be created?"

    We exist, so it was created, because we live, obviously a supernatural God created it.
     
  15. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Even if we say supernatural cause it needs not be a sentient cause. It could just be a cause without sentience. I would believe you would need your creator to be sentient.

    One theist doesn´t represent all theists (I can very well see your arguments wouldn´t represent mine)

    So one atheist doesn´t represent all atheists neither. Some may believe it was always there.


    It´s not obvious. If nothing created God yet he was always there, then it is not a necessity for something to be "created" so it is always there. Actually, as you already saw, energy CANNOT be created naturally, so you could well believe that it has never been created and it was always there.

    What you think of God as eternal, could be thought of energy as eternal.
     
  16. Breathe

    Breathe Mostly taking a break

    Messages:
    17,123
    Religion:
    Complicated but fairly consistent
    That's jumping the gun a significant amount there.

    How do you know this universe is not the creation from a black hole, and that every universe is created that way, in a huge, endless cycle?

    This may interest you: Every Black Hole Contains Another Universe?
     
  17. InformedIgnorance

    InformedIgnorance Do you 'know' or believe?

    Messages:
    3,740
    That does not logically follow. Moreover even if there WAS a time of nothing, all that would imply is that we do not have sufficient information to explain the origin of matter/energy and would suggest that our current understanding of the preservation of energy and matter is incorrect or else that the energy/matter originated from somewhere outside of our current understanding of space.

    Yes I know, and that is why I find the statement offensive. Personally I hold my own position to have significant merit; equally as much merit as any other philosophical position from a fideistic perspective and superior to any others (with the POSSIBLE exception of some types of agnosticism... though I am unsure of whether to call it weak agnosticism or strong agnosticism) that I have encountered from an ignostic perspective. However despite that I do not going around calling people blind or saying that they need 'saving' (or that their beliefs are inferior to my own, which is what saying someone needs to be 'saved', or 'ill pray for you' actually means when used in this context). Yes I believe that my position is superior in some respects because that it why I hold that position rather than another one - however that does not mean that I should go around saying "I think your position is inferior", perhaps at the most I might ask rather pointed questions about the nature of a person's assumptions, premises and reasoning, however value judgements have no place if you are truly trying to 'help' them as you claim.

    You may pity them, however that does not mean that they perceive that they are 'sad' nor that they do not appreciate their existence every bit as much as (or maybe even more than) you. And for many atheists the lack of a life after death is reassuring rather than disconcerting; and it encourages many to make the most out of this life rather than hanging their hopes on the possibility of another life later down the track.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  18. Madhuri

    Madhuri RF Goddess Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    15,067
    Religion:
    Bhagavad Gita - SD
    I vote 1. God. The problem is, what is God and how did he/she/it make it happen? One could believe that God is behind it all and be a pantheist, which is completely different from, say, the mainstream Christian concept.

    Is God some powerful spirit in a corner of the universe who thinks about creation and makes it happen? Is God an intelligence that expands itself to form the universe? Is God really a number of powerful entities working together to create and manage the universe? Is God even intelligent, or is God that very energy that can never be created or destroyed?


    I don't think it's our place to 'help' them. We find our own paths in life through our unique personal experiences. By interfering, we place a lot of responsibility in our own hands.
     
  19. Krok

    Krok New Member

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    786
    So, energy could not have been created. It was around in some form or the other? Is that what you mean? Do you call energy god? If so, a lump of coal can be called god.
    What anyone thinks is not important. It's what can be demonstrated which is important.
    What about all the other possibilities you don't mention? For example, fairies could have done it.
    Or fairies or aliens or garden gnomes or the Universe was not always there. Lots of possibilities. The fact that the Universe not always being there in it's current form is what all the empirical, verifiable evidence indicate.
    You can't even "proof" that you exist. That's why science is so wonderful. It works on evidence, not proof. And it works very well, considering that you use the internet.
    Is that what you believe? Your beliefs are not important. it's what you can demonstrate with empirical, verifiable evidence that's important.
    Are you sure it wasn't the FSM, as other people have life experiences with the FSM? Others have life experiences with aliens who anally probe them. Others have experiences with gods other than the one you chose to believe in.
    Many people who've had experiences with Allah beg to differ. They have lots of experiences with Allah.
    Anyway, you've got it wrong. Atheists don't believe in the existence of any god or gods or anything similar. That's it. Nothing to do with "energy" or "Universe" or anything like that. Atheists simply don't believe all the stories theists tell about their gods. That's it.
    You might want to start helping yourself in what the word "atheist" means. Anyway, why do you want to help people who don't need any help and can help themselves if needed? I find it terribly insulting for you telling me that I need help. Does it make you feel special when you do it?:shrug:

    Seeing that we are on insults, why don't you provide empirical, verifiable evidence for the existence of your particular chosen god?

    With this, I don't mean "arguments" like the origin of energy of the Universe or anything like that. The reason is that, even if a god or gods or someting "created" energy or the Universe or whatever (I don't believe it, but it's for the sake of the argument), that god or gods could have died or lost interest in "creation" in the meantime. A dead god or gods or dieties are of no use.

    Provide empirical, verifiable evidence that your particular god or gods or chosen diety exists, today.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  20. Blackdog22

    Blackdog22 New Member

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    990
    What reason do you have to believe this?

    You assume far too much, you have no clue how satisfied other people are or aren't unless they specifically tell you.

    Um, you must not understand the atheist position. You see we appreciate every moment in our lives "because" we believe in no afterlife. In other words, this is all we got so we make the best of it. Also energy doesn't = a soul so I have no idea why you are relating energy with an afterlife.
     
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