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God of the Old Testament

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Growing up as a Baptist and spending 30 years in that religion/denomination, I did a lot of Bible study sessions, but it was not until I was in my 30s and I really started paying attention to what was actually written in the Bible, that I drifted away from my upbringing and eventually walking the path of the deist. These are some of the things that after reading them, I became further removed from my childhood religion:

Human sacrifice
Child sacrifice
Slavery
Murder
Rape

All of these things are found in the OT and they were all SUPPOSEDLY ordered by God. First born animals and children were to be sacrificed as a burnt offering. Slavery was encouraged and there were laws that governed its practice. When the Israelites conquered a city, they murdered every man, woman and child in it. Virgin girls were kidnapped, taken as wives and forcefully raped.

As an adult, when I actually understood what those things were and how heinous and immoral they were, to go back and re-read the Bible and see them throughout the OT, I could not help but drift away. Hell, I am a cop (CSI) and help send people to prison for doing those things.

It really gripes me to read about ancient priests and how they lived. "God" demands a 10% tribute (tithe), payable to the priesthood. There was to be a weekly feast prepared a certain way and with the best morsels, also given to the priesthood. The priests did not work in the fields or tend to the flocks...they sat around in their shaded tents and lived an easy, rich life. It was the biggest con game of its time...and proliferates to this very day.

I have always said that the god of the OT and the god of the NT seem to be two different individuals.

"Bow down before me! Tremble before me! Fear me! You will burn in hell!" That sounds more like the directives of a diabolical, self righteous dictator than it does a benevolent, loving deity.

That is one of the bigger reasons why I am a deist. Deism, as a theological concept, denies the drivel found in the OT as being divinely inspired. We can clearly see where it was a person, or group of people, that were using religion and the threat of divine wrath to live a fat, easy life. There was a reason only the priests could go inside the temple...they did not want their secret to get out!
I can relate to much of what you say, but I have not abandoned my faith. I too was raised in a Baptist church and cannot for the life of me harmonize the teachings of Jesus with the things written in say the book of Judges where you had one so called man of God actually offer up his virgin daughter as a burnt offering to God, not to mention the ISIS type tactics that the Hebrew people used against the native people of the promised land as well as even their own people. My church has lately been studying the book of Judges and I just feel very bad after reading the barbaric acts committed against people in Gods name. I don't believe that God intended for things to be that way, in fact Jesus preached compassion and "you who are without sin cast the first stone." So yes I have similar feelings concerning some things in the Old Testament.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The person in question has a history of trash talking and belittling others. In open discussion/debate forums, I could care less. But it does not belong here. My OP is nothing but deistic concepts, and thus posted here.
I think you are in the right place, and coming from a background such as yourself, I see exactly where you are coming from on this subject.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Human sacrifice
Child sacrifice
Slavery
Murder
Rape
God never asked for sacrifice.
There were servants and that was supposed to be to help a brother. No doubt mankind abused it. We usually do.
You shalt not kill
Not supposed to rape.

I think you will find these things are of man not God. Taking a virgin from a battle.... what would you do? Leave them there to die? and are you saying that young girls don't want to sleep with men? Where do you live?
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
That is the problem with so many that claim to be Christian or otherwise...they don't actually read what the Bible says. So many just repeat or believe what they heard along the way. Thus biblical vs traditional beliefs.
They live by the spirit not the written word. Also, the OT speaks of other people and another God.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I found in reading the Christian Bible God slowly morphs from the God of Genesis to a completely different character in the NT.
Genesis God is a desert king with superpowers. He is not anything like the omnimax benevolent dictator in the NT. As humans develop more sophisticated morals, culture, etc., they redesign God in their own image. People keep imagining God is the way that God would be if they were God.

To me, this is solid evidence that religion is fiction.
Tom
The first part is right, but then your conclusion is wrong.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Growing up as a Baptist and spending 30 years in that religion/denomination, I did a lot of Bible study sessions, but it was not until I was in my 30s and I really started paying attention to what was actually written in the Bible, that I drifted away from my upbringing and eventually walking the path of the deist. These are some of the things that after reading them, I became further removed from my childhood religion:

Human sacrifice
Child sacrifice
Slavery
Murder
Rape

All of these things are found in the OT and they were all SUPPOSEDLY ordered by God. First born animals and children were to be sacrificed as a burnt offering. Slavery was encouraged and there were laws that governed its practice. When the Israelites conquered a city, they murdered every man, woman and child in it. Virgin girls were kidnapped, taken as wives and forcefully raped.

As an adult, when I actually understood what those things were and how heinous and immoral they were, to go back and re-read the Bible and see them throughout the OT, I could not help but drift away. Hell, I am a cop (CSI) and help send people to prison for doing those things.

It really gripes me to read about ancient priests and how they lived. "God" demands a 10% tribute (tithe), payable to the priesthood. There was to be a weekly feast prepared a certain way and with the best morsels, also given to the priesthood. The priests did not work in the fields or tend to the flocks...they sat around in their shaded tents and lived an easy, rich life. It was the biggest con game of its time...and proliferates to this very day.

I have always said that the god of the OT and the god of the NT seem to be two different individuals.

"Bow down before me! Tremble before me! Fear me! You will burn in hell!" That sounds more like the directives of a diabolical, self righteous dictator than it does a benevolent, loving deity.

That is one of the bigger reasons why I am a deist. Deism, as a theological concept, denies the drivel found in the OT as being divinely inspired. We can clearly see where it was a person, or group of people, that were using religion and the threat of divine wrath to live a fat, easy life. There was a reason only the priests could go inside the temple...they did not want their secret to get out!
I suppose that is one way for someone to become a deist, based upon rejection of a particular point of view of a Biblical deity. I don't think that is where all deists come from though. I think there are other ways that people enter the category. Some might arrive from the universalist camp, for example. Others take a direct line from having no beliefs at all. Wikipedia says there are warm and cold deists. The warm deists believe that the deity interferes with the world while the cold deists do not.

From Wikipedia:
Critical elements of deist thought included:

  • Rejection of religions that are based on books that claim to contain the revealed word of God.
  • Rejection of religious dogma and demagogy.
  • Skepticism of reports of miracles, prophecies and religious "mysteries".
Constructional elements of deist thought included:

  • God exists and created the universe.
  • God gave humans the ability to reason.
I am curious for what reasons deists believe that there is a deity and why they believe God gave us the ability to reason? It seems as though evolution could provide answers to these questions, and lots of people have accepted that as an answer. Why not deists?
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
I suppose that is one way for someone to become a deist, based upon rejection of a particular point of view of a Biblical deity. I don't think that is where all deists come from though. I think there are other ways that people enter the category. Some might arrive from the universalist camp, for example. Others take a direct line from having no beliefs at all. Wikipedia says there are warm and cold deists. The warm deists believe that the deity interferes with the world while the cold deists do not.

From Wikipedia:

I am curious for what reasons deists believe that there is a deity and why they believe God gave us the ability to reason? It seems as though evolution could provide answers to these questions, and lots of people have accepted that as an answer. Why not deists?

Don't base a view of deism on a Wiki entry. That is merely an author's narrow view of deism.

Why deists believe in a deity has been answered. Feel free to search the Deism DIR.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Why deists believe in a deity has been answered. Feel free to search the Deism DIR.
Thanks. After looking through the deism directory and following a link over to deism.com, I still do not see an answer to my question with one caveat. What I do see is that deists seem to begin with a belief in God without explaining it and put the onus upon other people to disprove God. It can always be put into a separate thread though, and I have no intention of derailing your subject.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
...a belief in God without explaining it...

But it has been explained. We believe in God because of personal observations in nature, not because of some ancient holy texts that were written by man. Those observations are unique to each deist, although many will share similar observations/conclusions. In short, we see design, not randomness in nature.

Edit: also, deism.com is more of a church front for the World Union of Deists, and not so much the broad umbrella of deism.

Deism does not have an official church, governing body, etc. as it is a personal "religion."
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
That is the problem with so many that claim to be Christian or otherwise...they don't actually read what the Bible says. So many just repeat or believe what they heard along the way. Thus biblical vs traditional beliefs.

Many Christians believe that it was written during a time, with those limits in mind. Human kind has come a very long way, and it's not essential for Christians to view the Bible as a factual backdrop for faith. The NT to me, is where the crux of the faith rests, but much is left out of the Bible. The rest is faith, or experiences of faith. Belief and religion to me, should be a heart experience, as much as anything.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Many Christians believe that it was written during a time, with those limits in mind. Human kind has come a very long way, and it's not essential for Christians to view the Bible as a factual backdrop for faith. The NT to me, is where the crux of the faith rests, but much is left out of the Bible. The rest is faith, or experiences of faith. Belief and religion to me, should be a heart experience, as much as anything.

I agree and what is funny is that a "modern Christian" could very well call themselves a Christian Deist based on the fact that they no longer take a literal position on the Bible.

What I find is more cherry picking now. People pluck what they want out of the Bible and then toss the rest aside as metaphorical, or they simply don't follow it...such as "nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material." Once you mix polyester with cotton, woe be unto you! :D
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I agree and what is funny is that a "modern Christian" could very well call themselves a Christian Deist based on the fact that they no longer take a literal position on the Bible.

Hmmm....maybe. Not sure if it was ever meant to be taken entirely literally. Or if the stories we read of in the Bible were for a time long ago. I mean, when those texts were written, they probably couldn't fathom 2015. The NT is what I'm mainly drawn to, now. The OT has a lot to be left up to interpretation. The essence of Christianity rests in the NT, my opinion.

What I find is more cherry picking now. People pluck what they want out of the Bible and then toss the rest aside as metaphorical, or they simply don't follow it...such as "nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material." Once you mix polyester with cotton, woe be unto you! :D

*giggles*

Classy-Girl-Laughs-Giggles.gif
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I suppose that is one way for someone to become a deist, based upon rejection of a particular point of view of a Biblical deity. I don't think that is where all deists come from though.
Mine was a little different.
I was raised a conservative Catholic Christian. But I started having trouble with a lot of the logic while I was very young. I knew that trinitarian monotheism was a contradiction before we really had the vocabulary to discuss it, and the problem of evil and such. When I 12 or so I got hold of a Bible, reading it fully expecting Jesus to explain all this. I was sorely disappointed.

I spent my young adulthood as an atheist. But over time I realised that I did believe in a creator, but not the stories people tell about it. Eventually I realised that deist is the closest thing to a word for what seems obviously true to me.
Tom
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Mine was a little different.
I was raised a conservative Catholic Christian. But I started having trouble with a lot of the logic while I was very young. I knew that trinitarian monotheism was a contradiction before we really had the vocabulary to discuss it, and the problem of evil and such. When I 12 or so I got hold of a Bible, reading it fully expecting Jesus to explain all this. I was sorely disappointed.

I spent my young adulthood as an atheist. But over time I realised that I did believe in a creator, but not the stories people tell about it. Eventually I realised that deist is the closest thing to a word for what seems obviously true to me.
Tom
Only 12? That means you are a Bible nerd, which I mean as a complement since I am one. As a young charismatic I also had trouble with 'The logic'.

I agree and what is funny is that a "modern Christian" could very well call themselves a Christian Deist based on the fact that they no longer take a literal position on the Bible.
That is an interesting observation. It could be argued that the early Christians are deists, but the argument will not be made here. Its just an argument that happens to coincide with fact. Maybe if Thomas Jefferson makes it then it will have some clout, but word on the street is that he has died.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Only 12? That means you are a Bible nerd, which I mean as a complement since I am one. As a young charismatic I also had trouble with 'The logic'.

Logic?


That is an interesting observation. It could be argued that the early Christians are deists, but the argument will not be made here. Its just an argument that happens to coincide with fact. Maybe if Thomas Jefferson makes it then it will have some clout, but word on the street is that he has died.

A Christian deist is a theological impossibility, given deism's single tenet, that God does not interfere. Some deists claim to be followers of Jesus's morality, or words to that effect; but that would negate all biblical revelation and supernatural events. Given the historical Jesus being shrouded in mystery, and Paul's obfuscations, that makes Christian-deism little different than plain deism with an asterisk*.

*appending the (irrelevant) belief that Jesus was an historical, good person.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Replying to your 'I had trouble with the logic'
A Christian deist is a theological impossibility, given deism's single tenet, that God does not interfere. Some deists claim to be followers of Jesus's morality, or words to that effect; but that would negate all biblical revelation and supernatural events. Given the historical Jesus being shrouded in mystery, and Paul's obfuscations, that makes Christian-deism little different than plain deism with an asterisk*.
I'm not arguing that with you. You have a more narrow definition of what Christians were or are, and that's fine. I was mainly just asking about deism, and I appreciate your answer.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Replying to your 'I had trouble with the logic'

I'm not arguing that with you. You have a more narrow definition of what Christians were or are, and that's fine. I was mainly just asking about deism, and I appreciate your answer.

I was answering about deism, specifically how it's incompatible with Christianity--unless a very loose definition of Christianity is used, one that would make any modern form unrecognizable. That said, history is only recently bringing to light evidence that the earliest followers of Jesus, led by his brother James, would be indeed unrecognizable to modern Christians. The cause of of that wide disparity can be laid directly at the feet of Paul.

That said, that early Jerusalem Church was very Jewish, indeed a Jewish sect (early Ebionites, Nazareens, Nazoreans, Essenes) and very much believed in an interactive God. Indeed, I think Jesus was crucified for cleansing the Temple so that God could assume the throne and initiate the Kingdom of God then and there. It pretty well explains why Jesus is asking God from the cross why he was betrayed, and why many/most of his followers turned on him. No matter what happened, Jesus returning from the dead in the clouds, and God establishing a kingdom of Heaven on Earth, is as un-deistic as you can get.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
A Christian deist is a theological impossibility, given deism's single tenet, that God does not interfere. Some deists claim to be followers of Jesus's morality, or words to that effect; but that would negate all biblical revelation and supernatural events. Given the historical Jesus being shrouded in mystery, and Paul's obfuscations, that makes Christian-deism little different than plain deism with an asterisk*.

That is where we disagree, as I am exactly what you say is impossible. I have clearly defined my reasons in other threads. But for those not wanting to dig through them...

Christian: a follower of the teachings of Jesus
Deist: the belief in God based on reason and natural observation

Your description of Christianity complete with miracles, divine inspiration, etc. mostly comes from non-biblical sources such as tradition, which I do not ascribe to. One must separate what the Bible actually says vs. what clergymen teach from years of ignorant repetition.

Yes the Bible talks about the resurrection, but the oldest of the Gospels does not really say much about it. It appears the story was expanded at a later date. That and the Gospels are all hearsay, which I do not lend much value to.
 
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