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God. Naturally Occurring?

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
It is logical to me that the universe specifically required forethought by a creative intelligence, but that still leaves the question of the basic nature of the creator.

Some believe a creator was not necessary to cause that which presently exists, but they are not certain what was necessary -and usually are not considering what caused "the singularity" to exist in the first place.

As the Big Bang produced the building blocks of physical life forms on earth, they then needed to become ordered to produce life. It is reasonable that the nature of the Big Bang could cause things to happen in the necessary order, but our own example shows that creative influence also exists -and we cannot say it did not exist prior to life on earth. We also cannot say it did not exist prior to the singularity and Big Bang.

It can be said, however, that it is "natural" for "nature" to produce self-aware, intelligent, creative life.

It is logical to me that a self-aware, intelligent, creative life form must have existed before our universe -due to its nature -could have been produced, but that leaves the question of the nature of the creator.

Though many religious people might consider the very idea blasphemous, it is not -as far as I know -specifically indicated in any scripture whether or not God developed from the most simple state possible, or always existed as a complex, self-aware, intelligent creator.

Similar to the thought that all which exists simply exists "eternally", and changes in form -but that "time" began with the expansion of the Big Bang, God could still be considered eternal if God developed and is essentially all that exists.

Nature is often personified as "Mother", but it is possible that the "Father" is literally the person which is "nature" -and that he necessarily preceded that which required self-awareness, intelligence, creativity, etc.

This might seem to mean that there was once a state in which God was not self-aware, but complex awareness is based on simple awareness and interaction. So, perhaps God became increasingly aware and self-aware as he became more of which to be aware and self-aware.

I am not claiming that any of this is true, but it does essentially answer every question of the origin and present state of things adequately.

Thoughts?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Though many religious people might consider the very idea blasphemous, it is not -as far as I know -specifically indicated in any scripture whether or not God developed from the most simple state possible, or always existed as a complex, self-aware, intelligent creator.
We would disagree on whether G-d is presently complex or still as simple as always.
 

janesix

Active Member
It is logical to me that the universe specifically required forethought by a creative intelligence, but that still leaves the question of the basic nature of the creator.

Some believe a creator was not necessary to cause that which presently exists, but they are not certain what was necessary -and usually are not considering what caused "the singularity" to exist in the first place.

As the Big Bang produced the building blocks of physical life forms on earth, they then needed to become ordered to produce life. It is reasonable that the nature of the Big Bang could cause things to happen in the necessary order, but our own example shows that creative influence also exists -and we cannot say it did not exist prior to life on earth. We also cannot say it did not exist prior to the singularity and Big Bang.

It can be said, however, that it is "natural" for "nature" to produce self-aware, intelligent, creative life.

It is logical to me that a self-aware, intelligent, creative life form must have existed before our universe -due to its nature -could have been produced, but that leaves the question of the nature of the creator.

Though many religious people might consider the very idea blasphemous, it is not -as far as I know -specifically indicated in any scripture whether or not God developed from the most simple state possible, or always existed as a complex, self-aware, intelligent creator.

Similar to the thought that all which exists simply exists "eternally", and changes in form -but that "time" began with the expansion of the Big Bang, God could still be considered eternal if God developed and is essentially all that exists.

Nature is often personified as "Mother", but it is possible that the "Father" is literally the person which is "nature" -and that he necessarily preceded that which required self-awareness, intelligence, creativity, etc.

This might seem to mean that there was once a state in which God was not self-aware, but complex awareness is based on simple awareness and interaction. So, perhaps God became increasingly aware and self-aware as he became more of which to be aware and self-aware.

I am not claiming that any of this is true, but it does essentially answer every question of the origin and present state of things adequately.

Thoughts?
I see no reason why God couldn't have evolved. There is no way to tell really.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
It is logical to me that the universe specifically required forethought by a creative intelligence, but that still leaves the question of the basic nature of the creator.

Some believe a creator was not necessary to cause that which presently exists, but they are not certain what was necessary -and usually are not considering what caused "the singularity" to exist in the first place.

As the Big Bang produced the building blocks of physical life forms on earth, they then needed to become ordered to produce life. It is reasonable that the nature of the Big Bang could cause things to happen in the necessary order, but our own example shows that creative influence also exists -and we cannot say it did not exist prior to life on earth. We also cannot say it did not exist prior to the singularity and Big Bang.

It can be said, however, that it is "natural" for "nature" to produce self-aware, intelligent, creative life.

It is logical to me that a self-aware, intelligent, creative life form must have existed before our universe -due to its nature -could have been produced, but that leaves the question of the nature of the creator.

Though many religious people might consider the very idea blasphemous, it is not -as far as I know -specifically indicated in any scripture whether or not God developed from the most simple state possible, or always existed as a complex, self-aware, intelligent creator.

Similar to the thought that all which exists simply exists "eternally", and changes in form -but that "time" began with the expansion of the Big Bang, God could still be considered eternal if God developed and is essentially all that exists.

Nature is often personified as "Mother", but it is possible that the "Father" is literally the person which is "nature" -and that he necessarily preceded that which required self-awareness, intelligence, creativity, etc.

This might seem to mean that there was once a state in which God was not self-aware, but complex awareness is based on simple awareness and interaction. So, perhaps God became increasingly aware and self-aware as he became more of which to be aware and self-aware.

I am not claiming that any of this is true, but it does essentially answer every question of the origin and present state of things adequately.

Thoughts?

What I have thought may be possible is that the singularity was basically God. Some religions have this idea of God sacrificing themselves to create the universe. Basically God destroys them selves into basic components, "Big Bang".

So these elements interact, become more complex, more encompassing. Like humans are made of billions of cells. This type of complex evolution will continue becoming a larger more complex organism. Eventually becoming this complex singularity which is the entire universe. Once this is accomplished, there is no more to accomplish. So the singularity destroys itself in order to repeat the cycle.

So God was destroyed. A zillion years from now God will be recreated consisting of all matter, all energy, all consciousness. Man having just a momentary existence in this process.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It is logical to me that the universe specifically required forethought by a creative intelligence, but that still leaves the question of the basic nature of the creator.

Some believe a creator was not necessary to cause that which presently exists, but they are not certain what was necessary -and usually are not considering what caused "the singularity" to exist in the first place.

As the Big Bang produced the building blocks of physical life forms on earth, they then needed to become ordered to produce life. It is reasonable that the nature of the Big Bang could cause things to happen in the necessary order, but our own example shows that creative influence also exists -and we cannot say it did not exist prior to life on earth. We also cannot say it did not exist prior to the singularity and Big Bang.

It can be said, however, that it is "natural" for "nature" to produce self-aware, intelligent, creative life.

It is logical to me that a self-aware, intelligent, creative life form must have existed before our universe -due to its nature -could have been produced, but that leaves the question of the nature of the creator.

Though many religious people might consider the very idea blasphemous, it is not -as far as I know -specifically indicated in any scripture whether or not God developed from the most simple state possible, or always existed as a complex, self-aware, intelligent creator.

Similar to the thought that all which exists simply exists "eternally", and changes in form -but that "time" began with the expansion of the Big Bang, God could still be considered eternal if God developed and is essentially all that exists.

Nature is often personified as "Mother", but it is possible that the "Father" is literally the person which is "nature" -and that he necessarily preceded that which required self-awareness, intelligence, creativity, etc.

This might seem to mean that there was once a state in which God was not self-aware, but complex awareness is based on simple awareness and interaction. So, perhaps God became increasingly aware and self-aware as he became more of which to be aware and self-aware.

I am not claiming that any of this is true, but it does essentially answer every question of the origin and present state of things adequately.

Thoughts?

A bit like parents of whom their childern became parents themselves, for which their childern perpetuates the cycle while the orginal parents had since ceased to exist.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
We would disagree on whether G-d is presently complex or still as simple as always.
I'm not sure what you mean.

I believe God's basic nature can not change -which is the foundation of absolute truth -and that his nature (and so the truth) are basically simple -though application thereof becomes more complex (though only initially difficult for new beings) as the creation (and so God's thoughts toward design) becomes more complex.

It seems logical, for example, that since the universe once did not exist, there was a point before God decided to create it -and that the very idea and process was essentially God becoming more complex in that regard.

I am also wondering whether or not his awareness, capability to think, design, create, etc. was a step-by-step development.
 
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Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
A bit like parents of whom their childern became parents themselves, for which their childern perpetuates the cycle while the orginal parents had since ceased to exist.
That which has always existed, and from which all things are made, is permanent -as it is logical that something cannot come from absolute nothing.

Our present form and system is temporary. There is no reason a form and system could not be made permanent -though it is presently beyond our own power and level of knowledge. An original, all-inclusive intelligent creator could determine what was permanent and what would change -at least after developing to that point, if that is what happened.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
It is logical to me that the universe specifically required forethought by a creative intelligence, but that still leaves the question of the basic nature of the creator.

Some believe a creator was not necessary to cause that which presently exists, but they are not certain what was necessary -and usually are not considering what caused "the singularity" to exist in the first place.

As the Big Bang produced the building blocks of physical life forms on earth, they then needed to become ordered to produce life. It is reasonable that the nature of the Big Bang could cause things to happen in the necessary order, but our own example shows that creative influence also exists -and we cannot say it did not exist prior to life on earth. We also cannot say it did not exist prior to the singularity and Big Bang.

It can be said, however, that it is "natural" for "nature" to produce self-aware, intelligent, creative life.

It is logical to me that a self-aware, intelligent, creative life form must have existed before our universe -due to its nature -could have been produced, but that leaves the question of the nature of the creator.

Though many religious people might consider the very idea blasphemous, it is not -as far as I know -specifically indicated in any scripture whether or not God developed from the most simple state possible, or always existed as a complex, self-aware, intelligent creator.

Similar to the thought that all which exists simply exists "eternally", and changes in form -but that "time" began with the expansion of the Big Bang, God could still be considered eternal if God developed and is essentially all that exists.

Nature is often personified as "Mother", but it is possible that the "Father" is literally the person which is "nature" -and that he necessarily preceded that which required self-awareness, intelligence, creativity, etc.

This might seem to mean that there was once a state in which God was not self-aware, but complex awareness is based on simple awareness and interaction. So, perhaps God became increasingly aware and self-aware as he became more of which to be aware and self-aware.

I am not claiming that any of this is true, but it does essentially answer every question of the origin and present state of things adequately.

Thoughts?

Interesting idea, but it seems illogical that an intelligent deity far more complex than human beings would evolve prior to the existence of single-celled organisms. As Dawkins says "In the beginning was simplicity."
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
It is logical to me that the universe specifically required forethought by a creative intelligence, but that still leaves the question of the basic nature of the creator.

Some believe a creator was not necessary to cause that which presently exists, but they are not certain what was necessary -and usually are not considering what caused "the singularity" to exist in the first place.

As the Big Bang produced the building blocks of physical life forms on earth, they then needed to become ordered to produce life. It is reasonable that the nature of the Big Bang could cause things to happen in the necessary order, but our own example shows that creative influence also exists -and we cannot say it did not exist prior to life on earth. We also cannot say it did not exist prior to the singularity and Big Bang.

It can be said, however, that it is "natural" for "nature" to produce self-aware, intelligent, creative life.

It is logical to me that a self-aware, intelligent, creative life form must have existed before our universe -due to its nature -could have been produced, but that leaves the question of the nature of the creator.

Though many religious people might consider the very idea blasphemous, it is not -as far as I know -specifically indicated in any scripture whether or not God developed from the most simple state possible, or always existed as a complex, self-aware, intelligent creator.

Similar to the thought that all which exists simply exists "eternally", and changes in form -but that "time" began with the expansion of the Big Bang, God could still be considered eternal if God developed and is essentially all that exists.

Nature is often personified as "Mother", but it is possible that the "Father" is literally the person which is "nature" -and that he necessarily preceded that which required self-awareness, intelligence, creativity, etc.

This might seem to mean that there was once a state in which God was not self-aware, but complex awareness is based on simple awareness and interaction. So, perhaps God became increasingly aware and self-aware as he became more of which to be aware and self-aware.

I am not claiming that any of this is true, but it does essentially answer every question of the origin and present state of things adequately.

Thoughts?
Was nature present before our universe? What produced the nature that produced the "intelligent being"?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Interesting idea, but it seems illogical that an intelligent deity far more complex than human beings would evolve prior to the existence of single-celled organisms. As Dawkins says "In the beginning was simplicity."
Before single-celled organisms was a singularity and big bang by which was made the entire universe. The singularity was not simple -it was already complex enough to become the universe.
Single celled organisms are not simple. Atoms are not simple. They are parts of a whole reality which is definitely not simple.
It is logical that an intelligence existed which was able to apply logic to the simple stuff which was transformed into the extremely complex universe -to package and execute the singularity and big bang.
It is also logical that the intelligence was once the most simple state possible.

I've been thinking about the significance of the fact that physical life forms did not strive to become what they are -and that an original intelligence would increasingly do so. We are nearing the point of self-design, but an original intelligence would need to increasingly self-design its own mind and "body". We become aware within a body which is already of a complex design (whether we believe it had an intelligent designer or not) -with an extremely capable mind.
"Evolution" itself is an intelligent (in its broadest sense) designer which preceded the single cell -but is an intelligent designer which s not aware that it is such. Why the evolution "program" was an inevitable result of/written into the singularity and big bang is a question which would also need to be answered.
 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
It is logical to me that the universe specifically required forethought by a creative intelligence, but that still leaves the question of the basic nature of the creator.

Some believe a creator was not necessary to cause that which presently exists, but they are not certain what was necessary -and usually are not considering what caused "the singularity" to exist in the first place.

As the Big Bang produced the building blocks of physical life forms on earth, they then needed to become ordered to produce life. It is reasonable that the nature of the Big Bang could cause things to happen in the necessary order, but our own example shows that creative influence also exists -and we cannot say it did not exist prior to life on earth. We also cannot say it did not exist prior to the singularity and Big Bang.

It can be said, however, that it is "natural" for "nature" to produce self-aware, intelligent, creative life.

It is logical to me that a self-aware, intelligent, creative life form must have existed before our universe -due to its nature -could have been produced, but that leaves the question of the nature of the creator.

Though many religious people might consider the very idea blasphemous, it is not -as far as I know -specifically indicated in any scripture whether or not God developed from the most simple state possible, or always existed as a complex, self-aware, intelligent creator.

Similar to the thought that all which exists simply exists "eternally", and changes in form -but that "time" began with the expansion of the Big Bang, God could still be considered eternal if God developed and is essentially all that exists.

Nature is often personified as "Mother", but it is possible that the "Father" is literally the person which is "nature" -and that he necessarily preceded that which required self-awareness, intelligence, creativity, etc.

This might seem to mean that there was once a state in which God was not self-aware, but complex awareness is based on simple awareness and interaction. So, perhaps God became increasingly aware and self-aware as he became more of which to be aware and self-aware.

I am not claiming that any of this is true, but it does essentially answer every question of the origin and present state of things adequately.

Thoughts?

Whether the stuff of which the present universe we are in is or can be eternal is an unanswered question. But to posit an intellect of some sort to account for it all is not a strong position. What created the intelligence that created the universe....and you begin an infinite regression of intelligent agents from there. On the other hand, if an intelligent agent can be eternal then why not the stuff of the universe.
 
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Malicex

New Member
This reminds me of a book I saw called God's Debris: A Thought Experiment.

'God's Debris espouses a philosophy based on the idea that the simplest explanation tends to be the best. It proposes a form of pandeism and monism, postulating that an omnipotent god annihilated himself in the Big Bang, because an omniscient entity would already know everything possible except his own lack of existence, and exists now as the smallest units of matter and the law of probability, or "God's debris".' — Wikipedia

From what I remember, it also talks about how God is slowing being pieced back together.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is logical to me that the universe specifically required forethought by a creative intelligence, but that still leaves the question of the basic nature of the creator.
Logical? How is this logical. Why must a conscious personage be involved?

It can be said, however, that it is "natural" for "nature" to produce self-aware, intelligent, creative life.
Everything that's real; that actually exists, is natural.

It is logical to me that a self-aware, intelligent, creative life form must have existed before our universe -due to its nature -could have been produced, but that leaves the question of the nature of the creator.
Is this logic, or just a feeling? Show me a syllogism.

We see that watches and airplanes are intentionally designed and built by conscious beings, and we tend to extend this observation to explain complex natural phenomena, as well. This may be emotionally satisfying, but I don't see the logic in it.

Similar to the thought that all which exists simply exists "eternally", and changes in form -but that "time" began with the expansion of the Big Bang, God could still be considered eternal if God developed and is essentially all that exists.
Reality has turned out to be radically different from the subjective world we perceive. Concepts like time have had to be reconsidered, and eternal may not be as cut and dried as we imagine, either.

Nature is often personified as "Mother", but it is possible that the "Father" is literally the person which is "nature" -and that he necessarily preceded that which required self-awareness, intelligence, creativity, etc.
Seriously... sex is a recent biological phenomenon 'designed' to create more reproductive variation for Natural Selection to work with. It's a reproductive device to create genetic variation. Why would this apply to an eternal, non reproductive God?
You're anthropomorphizing again.

This might seem to mean that there was once a state in which God was not self-aware, but complex awareness is based on simple awareness and interaction. So, perhaps God became increasingly aware and self-aware as he became more of which to be aware and self-aware.

I am not claiming that any of this is true, but it does essentially answer every question of the origin and present state of things adequately.
Thoughts?
It doesn't answer anything. It doesn't even attempt to. Answers involve mechanisms, forces and sequential steps, ie: How.
This God hypothesis explains none of this. At best it answers Who?
And of course there's the problem of regression: what or who created God?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It is logical to me that the universe specifically required forethought by a creative intelligence, but that still leaves the question of the basic nature of the creator.

Some believe a creator was not necessary to cause that which presently exists, but they are not certain what was necessary -and usually are not considering what caused "the singularity" to exist in the first place.

As the Big Bang produced the building blocks of physical life forms on earth, they then needed to become ordered to produce life. It is reasonable that the nature of the Big Bang could cause things to happen in the necessary order, but our own example shows that creative influence also exists -and we cannot say it did not exist prior to life on earth. We also cannot say it did not exist prior to the singularity and Big Bang.

It can be said, however, that it is "natural" for "nature" to produce self-aware, intelligent, creative life.

It is logical to me that a self-aware, intelligent, creative life form must have existed before our universe -due to its nature -could have been produced, but that leaves the question of the nature of the creator.

Though many religious people might consider the very idea blasphemous, it is not -as far as I know -specifically indicated in any scripture whether or not God developed from the most simple state possible, or always existed as a complex, self-aware, intelligent creator.

Similar to the thought that all which exists simply exists "eternally", and changes in form -but that "time" began with the expansion of the Big Bang, God could still be considered eternal if God developed and is essentially all that exists.

Nature is often personified as "Mother", but it is possible that the "Father" is literally the person which is "nature" -and that he necessarily preceded that which required self-awareness, intelligence, creativity, etc.

This might seem to mean that there was once a state in which God was not self-aware, but complex awareness is based on simple awareness and interaction. So, perhaps God became increasingly aware and self-aware as he became more of which to be aware and self-aware.

I am not claiming that any of this is true, but it does essentially answer every question of the origin and present state of things adequately.

Thoughts?
The above sort of reminds me of Baruch Spinoza's and Einstein's take on God whereas Spinoza often substituted "Nature" (used in an all-encompassing context) for God. IOW, they felt that God was and is so intertwined with the entire universe that we shouldn't separate them in our minds.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
The only thing we can say for sure, is that god, whatever it might be, is obsessed with the mating behaviors of one species of animal on this tiny planet. This is only logical and self-evident.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Maybe God is just a chemical fiction...
Reality, perception of reality, happiness, etc., are dependent on interaction.
It is beneficial for a mind to have an accurate understanding of the workings of reality and its basic truth. Due to complexity and a present lack of "perfection" (happiness-causing situation among inexperienced beings, etc.), a false reality which brings more happiness than imperfect reality is often preferred. Presently, as the bible puts it... "With increased knowledge is increased pain".
That is not to say God is false and will not bring about perfection and teach us perfection, but many false gods have offered temporary (though misleading) relief -even a "high" -of some sort.

If God were not real, the idea of God would still be a temporary relief until man became God-like enough to master reality and peace -if that were at all possible. We can think on an increasingly God-like scale -but we still lack self-control, wisdom, knowledge, power over reality, etc. We also lack permanence/immortality which would allow for certain changes to be permanent -and each generation must learn the same basic lessons.
People are rejecting the idea of God for -whether they realize it or not - becoming God-like, but we struggle to master one planet.

If permanent change and permanent life, ever-increasing space for new life, perfect law, universal adherence to perfect law, an end to war, disease and disaster -and everything else which would solve all of man's problems -cannot come by man, humans will increasingly prefer false reality.
 
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