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Featured God is the one who's creating all the things that you see all around you.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by chinu, Oct 20, 2021.

  1. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    So you said you were born again and then later on said Jesus is imaginary, please explain that because a person cannot receive the Holy Spirit and be born again from an imaginary person.
     
  2. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    Are you seriously unable to grasp this? It's not like I haven't already explained it before. I believed I was born again and it was something real (like you do now), then I came to realise that it wasn't after getting older and wiser, learning to think more rationally, and managing to take a step back and a critical look at it all. There is no objective evidence that anybody is 'born again' or receives anything called the holy spirit. They are just religious experiences and beliefs.

    Now, I know you'll go all no true Scotsman on me and claim that I can't have experienced what you have, but you can't possibly know that, you can only have blind faith that it is the case. As I said, I know a number of people who had the same experience as me, and also a fair number who kept their faith. There was no obvious difference between the groups when they were all believers. There is no test you can do that can tell you if someone will cling to their blind faith or realise their mistake at some time in the future. There is no objective difference and that's why it's blind faith.
     
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  3. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    I am able to grasp it because you never received anything from God and it was make believe to you as it was for me because it was something that was taught at church. I would read the Bible and it never made sense so I ditched it till I was in rehab and cried out to God for help and He delivered me that day, if He didn’t I wouldn’t be here right now but dead. Then He led me to a pastor who shared the Gospel and I RECEIVED Jesus Christ, Was FILLED with the Holy Spirit and was CHANGED at that moment.
     
  4. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    On the one hand you say I can’t possibly know what you did or did not experience and then on the other hand you claim you can know what I did or did not experience.
     
  5. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    Yep, me too. Convincing, isn't it?
    This is true, but nothing you've said here leads me to think your experience was much different to mine or the other people I knew at the time, some of whom I still do know. The fact that there is no objective way at all to tell is what makes your (and mine, back then) blind faith - it's an interpretation of a subjective experience.

    What I can tell you though, is that, young and naive as I was, I was absolutely 100% sincere when I 'repented of my sins' and asked Jesus into my life to be lord and saviour, so, if what I then experienced was fake, where do you think your god was? Why would he allow that to happen?
     
  6. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Well I wasn’t young and naive when I received Jesus Christ, I had pretty much done everything that I wanted in terms of sex, drugs and rock and roll. None of that satisfied and when I received Jesus Christ at 28, yes that was real and never looked back. That was over 30 years ago, He has been faithful all this time, it wasn’t a one time experience, it’s daily, walking with God. He healed me and set me on a great path.
     
  7. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    None of this addresses what I said. I didn't say anything about the experience being 'one time'. Faith can and does change people's lives, sometimes very much for the better, sometimes not, but that doesn't mean that the thing you have faith in is real. The faith of people who believe it totally different god(s) can change their lives too.

    At the very least, most of the people in the world who have faith must be wrong because whichever god you think is real, most people disagree.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    It is not the naming where you fail. It s when you try to define faith.

    You can't even see your own obvious errors. You were the one that made the mistake of relying on the Bible for your definition. That means you would need to prove that it is a reliable source. But you do not seem to want to do th.
     
  9. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Doesn’t mean it’s not real and since you can’t prove to people either way that too is what the Bible teaches. That this is personal, each individual makes that decision for themselves, the results of those decisions are made known at the Judgement when everyone gives an account of there lives to God. Until then yes it’s by faith/trust that God will be faithful to His promises and He has given me His Seal until that Day as a guarantee that I’m His.
     
  10. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    It’s not a mistake to use biblical definitions when we are talking about biblical faith. Using a different source would be faulty.
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    It is when you are trying to claim that you do not have blind faith.
     
  12. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    As I pointed out, at least most people's religious faith must be in something that isn't real. I see no reason to think that there would be an exception hiding amongst them. Why would a just and loving god allow that? Why play silly games of hide-and-seek?
     
  13. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    I have biblical faith and gave you the reference and my testimony so whether or not you believe me is irrelevant and doesn’t matter to me.
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Except when God is not faithful. But then he always has an excuse:rolleyes:
     
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  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Right. You have blind faith.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Because he is really really good at it??

    It is almost exactly what we would expect to see if he did not exist at all.
     
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  17. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    You see hide and seek and I see something different. You say faith must be in something that
    isn’t real but that’s not my experience with God at all. He is invisible to my eye but not my spirit, I can’t hear him with my natural ear but I can with my spirit.
     
  18. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Only if you accept the beliefs behind methodological naturalism.
    I don't deny reality. I just deny that everything is objective in the end. Or subjective for that matter.

    There are 2 too simple positions:
    Everything can be tested with positive outcomes that makes sense to me.
    Everything is how I believe it works as it works for me.

    Neither works in practice for all of the everyday world and both evidence and faith has limits.
    I just use the one that works in a given context and will add if I need to: I don't know!
     
  19. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    So now you know the truth, God did not create me, since you cannot see me. ;)

    And that's how I challenged that statement.

    And here's dessert to go along with it. About one minute after I post this reply, my statement below will be true since
    I'm going to close my eyes and I will see nothing around me.

    "God created nothing."
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You are being inconsistent once again.
     
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