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Um, no. The creation itself was good, but the creation hadn't fulfilled its purpose. Remember, part of that creation was purposefully putting a tree of knowledge right in Adam and Eve's reach. That part was also good, and that was part of what helped the Earth fulfill its purpose (being an area where we could receive physical bodies and learn and grow).Bangbang said:
Ok....but why did he place a forbidden fruit that would cause the suffering and death to his creation of mankind within their reach. Does a responsible parent purposely place harmful chemicals like bleach and ammonia within reach of his toddler son and daughter.Aqualung said:
God's quality of omniscience does not take away from you choosing to screw up. You did it, not Him. It would be like blaming a fork manufacturer because you choose to stab yourself. Even if the manufacturer knew you could possibly do such a thing, they assume you won't be dumb enough to do it. They hope you don't, but nonetheless they respect your freedom to choose.pandamonk said:
Please be aware that I am answering from the Christian tradition:pandamonk said:
For a couple of reasons. One: if he didn't, Adam and Eve would have been stuck in an eternal state of non-progression, eternally stagnant and unchanging. Since God's plan is for us to become like him (and one of those qualities had to be knowledge of good and evil), they had to eat of the tree of knowledge. How could they do that if it was out of their reach? Two: Adam and Eve had to excercise free will to eat of the tree. Free will is the greatest gift we have been given in this life, and God can't ever take that away from us. Three: Only with the knowledge of evil can we know the true nature and goodness of good. Four: Without suffering, we can't truely know joy. Five: Without death, we can't be redeemed from a fallen state, and "cash in on our progression" so to speak, by progressing from the mortal to the immortal. Six: We can't truely excercise free will if we are constantly in God's presence, and a lot of suffering is caused by people not using their free will to do God's will.Bangbang said:
This is all great, and we knew it already, but why didn't he just give adam and eve the knowledge instead of putting them to the test in which they have a chance of not fullfilling his plan by not eating of the tree? Why did he tell them not to do it if what he really wanted was for them to do it? Why did he punish them for doing what he told them not to do, even though it's really what he wanted them to do? Hes put them in a position where they cannot do right. If they do as God tells them they are doing the opposite of what God wants, but if they disobey God they are doing the right thing. Are you sure God is not female? Yes means no, and no means yes. lolAqualung said:
But God knew that Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil, and could not be trusted to do the "right" thing. So why did he not instill the knowledge of good and evil in them when first creating them, so they would have known that disobeying god is wrong? The fork manufacturer is not all-knowing, and everwhere. I'm sure that if they were and saw/knew that we were going to stab ourselves, they would stop us. God is everywhere and all knowing, so could of stopped Adam and Eve from eating the fruit. He didn't, and you could say that this was a test, but God would have known the outcome before it happened if he was omniscient. He would have known the outcome before he created them. He created them so that they would disobey him and he could punish them. It is not free will if you don't have a choice. You may say that they had the choice to do good or evil, but if they did not know good and evil they could not have known their choice.Victor said:
God is not part of my logic. This is what I'm trying to show. He does not fit into logic. Don't you see anything wrong in what you just said? "God can't do what God choses not to do" although "God is not able to do anything that limits God's power". So he cant do what he chooses not to do, but he cant limit his power?angellous_evangellous said:
God cannot be all-loving if he sent his own son to be killed. Could you say you loved your child if you sacraficed them to save someone else? I certainly wouldn't say you loved them. You're right, "Just because God choses to limit his power does not threaten his omniscience", but it does limit his omnipotence.
Sorry Pandamonk, but you just are not understanding the Christian perspective. To copy the statement to which Angellous Evangelous replied, namely:-pandamonk said:God is not part of my logic. This is what I'm trying to show. He does not fit into logic. Don't you see anything wrong in what you just said? "God can't do what God choses not to do" although "God is not able to do anything that limits God's power". So he cant do what he chooses not to do, but he cant limit his power?
So he doesn't want do rid the world of evil? But there would always be external good(god), where there was suffering or not. I agree he knows it would happen so it limits one of the other.Aqualung said:
But he keeps creating them, so he could stop whenever he wanted and end evil.Aqualung said:Not if they all get here.
In the spirit world? Sorry i wouldn't know, never been. Have you?Aqualung said:
He is look out for himself you are saying? "for our eternal good" our eternal good is God(allegedly)Aqualung said:
Well my then. I'm sure others agree with me, so it is our. ie me and the people who agree.Aqualung said:
But with his power he could allow us into eternal paradise.Aqualung said:
God hasn't had to learn, so why should we? Couldn't he of made us in such a way that we don't need to learn?Aqualung said:
Please explain to me how an omnipotent being can suffer?Aqualung said:
Why do we need to learn? Because God created us that way. Why did he create us that way? To watch/cause us suffering?Aqualung said:
Perfection is that which no better can be conceived, and God is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenelovent, perfect, creator of the universe(among many others). I would have thought you would have known the definition of a god and perfection. If a being does not have these attribute they cannot be considered a god, in my opinion anyway, otherwise anything/one could be a god.Aqualung said:
He is expecting more of us than has ever been expected of him. He has never had to have faith, or become perfect from a definite imperfect state. I'd have to say that he's had it pretty easy. His creations? Well there are scientist working to recreate the begining of the universe. Why does his plan have to include us suffering, many eternally, to become like him? Sorry, this post is a little rushed.michel said:Sorry Pandamonk, but you just are not understanding the Christian perspective. To copy the statement to which Angellous Evangelous replied, namely:-
God's plan, as I understand it, as a Christian, is to allow us to learn how to become 'as he' (He created us in his image)......but we have to earn that image, through being put through tests and trials - as Jesus was, in the Desert.
It is only by allowing us total free will, and by not revealing himself to us, that he can ensure that we have Faith in him, which is another of his requirements.
Of course he could (I presume) snap his fingers, and in an instant, everything would be 'fixed' - but that is not in keeping with God's plan. I know that as an atheist you will not accept that the entire Universe was created (or at least sparked off into creation) by God, but that is my belief; it is also my belief that all the ingredients necessary for eventual life were 'programed into' that original start.
And you question God's abilities ? - could you mimic his creations ?
Disease you may find came about through lack of hygene, God will create a disease to destroy if certain issues are abused. Other diseases, cancers and deformalities brought on by man himself, e.g chemical creation for preserving foods and creating energy. Many corporate companys know that chemicals in their foodstuffs caused cancers and carried on to put them into their food products, then we have toxic chemicals that have entered the atmosphere through energy waste and chemical creation. So its not quite Gods fault, its the negative greed side of man that has caused a lot of suffering. But now with a lot of positive intelligence entering the business arena we are rapidly seeing improvements in these areas and i am sure they will accelerate, the ones that do not bother, then thats up to them and what they think happens to their Intelligent Energy(soul) when it leaves their Biological shell (body) and goes back to the master form of Intelligent Energy (God). Of course, it's only a personal point of view.Ryan2065 said:
Yes they had that knowledge, but they did not have the knowledge that disobeying God is wrong/evil. They did not have enough knowledge to know that it is wrong to disobey God!!! But why not give sufficinet knowledge first so they know that they should not disobey God, and that if they do they suffer the concequencies. Not knowing good or evil means that they would not know that death is not good for them. It's like putting a baby down in a room where there is nothing but a lighter/matches and telling them not to go near them. They wont know that they shouldn't touch them even though you have told them. And then standing and watching them burn themselves without stopping them, then punishing them and all their descendants for doing so.:bonk:Victor said:
Because they had to choose to do it. It had to be their choice to take the knowledge of suffering.pandamonk said:
For a couple of reasons: One: The consequence of eating is death, and God can't encourage people to kill themselves. Two: A consequence was a cutting off from God. Three: Satan was trying to work against God, so if he said, "Eat from this tree" Satan would have said, "No, don't eat from this tree," and they wouldn't have.pandamonk said:
He didn't punish them. He allowed them to go through an ordeal that lets them grow far more than they could have done without it.pandamonk said:
It does not limit one or the other. And that paragraph was so convoluted I have no idea what it even meant.pandamonk said:
Yep. He probably thought of that when he finally stopped. He probably didn't want this world to go on forever. It's like this: My parents probably knew that at some point I would have problems in my life. But then, why didn't they kill me when I was a baby? Because by fighting through whatever problems I would have, I can grow to be a good, happy adult. Suffering is fleeting.pandamonk said:
Okay, so you're debating me about a God you don't believe in, but when I also say I believe in a spirit world, this suddenly becomes too much to handle? Because this actually makes god logical, doesn't it? And your entire argument is based on an illogical god, isn't it?pandamonk said:In the spirit world? Sorry i wouldn't know, never been. ave you?
Our eternal good isn't merely God. It's learning and growing and returning to live with him, and then perhaps becoming like him.pandamonk said:
How do you know? You still haven't adequately defined "his power." What exactly is "his power?" And how do you know what the bounds of "his power" are? Do you see my signiature? You inspired me to make that my signiature, and it applies. See, your problem is, you just sat down one day and said, "this is how god should be." Unfortunately for you, that's not how I see god as being.pandamonk said:
Yes he has. I just said that.pandamonk said:
Because without learning, we could never become like him.pandaomk said:
No.pandamonk said:
Please define for me omnipotence. I'm sure you're defining omnipotence to mean that he can create a square circle or a rock he cannot lift. So why shouldn't he be able to suffer? Even if you're not going to define your terms for me, you might want to at least try to be internally consitent in your arguments. If you're not going to define your terms for me, at least define them for yourself, so you can create consistent, coherent arguments.pandamonk said:
So we can become like god.pandamonk said:
Because that's the only way he could create us.pandamonk said:
I don't believe that definition is correct. I think perfection is that which no better can exist, not "be conceiced." Can you live with that term? Because if not, we can't debate.pandamonk said:
I know the definition of god and perfection. You're just not using them, so I wanted to know what your "definition" of them was.pandamonk said:
Well, we don't know about him - we have no way of knowing anything about him other than the attributes of his that were explained to us by his Son, Jesus, when he was incarnate on Earth.pandamonk said:
why should God provide us with food that does not require cancer-causing preservatives? - he has provided meat, fish and vegetables in abundance. The cancer-causing preservatives are a man made ingredient that allows us to have food stored for longer periods of time than normal; the pesticides are there to allow farmers to get a better return for their work. All these extra elements are man-made, out of greed and avarice, convenience.....................Ceridwen018 said:
He did, originally; man has a natural immune system; it is man himself who has weakened that immune system, by becoming obsessed with cleanlyness, so as to reduce the eficacy of his immune system.
Yes, he is. He expects us all (who have water) to go share it with the Africans, to feed them. They are our Brothers and sisters. And what do we do ? make a small contribution to some charity, so that we feel better inside......while driving to work in a plush car, smoking cigarettes, going to work in a nice plush building..etc
