God is in Hell - it is the other guy that is in Heaven

[RamaRaksha]

God never gave any church the power to forgive wrongdoing. Only God can forgive and only when you seriously try to stop the wrong behavior.

But that's after death - what wrong behavior will you be doing in the afterlife? Is there rape, murder and stealing going on in heaven?

No Sir, God is not qualified to forgive - only the victim is qualified - it is like saying the judge can ignore the victim's suffering and forgive the rapist, the pedophile and the murderer. Religions like yours tout God's forgiveness because it is the easy way out - cry some croc tears of remorse and nice forgiving God will forgive - how nice for the criminal. Try that with the victim - well, that might not work out so well - the victim might demand compensation - (I ran up credit card debt because of a market loss, took me 7-8 years to pay it all back but i did - that's the problem with making the victim whole, it is not easy), the victim will demand that you come clean to everyone, the victim will demand that you face the judge and take the punishment

"seriously TRY to stop the wrong behavior"? wow! Gee the pedophile really, really tried to stop molesting kids but aw he couldn't - so let him go? He is forgiven?

Again where is the compassion for the victim? Zero! None! Because you have a problem don't you? - you have this nice story of dying and facing God but how do we get the victim over there if he or she is still here? Can't do that & even if even the victim is already dead - he or she won't be in such a good mood to forgive. Problem

No wonder you consistently avoid mentioning the victim - just amazing how a religion can brainwash people

 

[kalyan]

You seem to be Hindu and i think i might have posted this to you earlier - i am a lit bothered by the writing that you have after your post - you are a slave of someone? Sir, Hinduism has never taught such ideas - we are ALL born Children of God - our goal is Moksha - to become a God! Aham Brahmasmi - why do you say you are a slave? That is demeaning yourself. A slave is just a blind robot - just does what he is told? That is not Hinduism

We are told that we are responsible for our karmas - our actions - our choices - it is asking us to think and reflect on our choices - be a student. If you want to say you are a student of someone that is fine. The difference between a slave and a student? A master says the sky is green and the slave blindly agrees, whereas every student must disagree! Please do not think blind obedience is something that God finds appealing - it is not

Slave in the sense the jIva's swaroopa or our actual nature is subservient to god always because without him, we could not have taken any form and lying inside him like an achetana (non-sentient). So paramaatma is like an atma to us, without him we are not considered existing. So whatever actions or Karma that we do, it has to be bring happiness in the face of the god for he is more worried about us getting back to him. We are happy just where we are enjoying all the materialistic pleasures in this mundane world. We are not desiring him really, if he comes and says 'Lets go, I am granting you the moksha', guess what we will say 'I have got work here to do sir still, look after my children etc' . He has the pain as we are the ones who are losing by rotating in the cycles of birth and death. What does a slave does ? he does what master says. we have to do whatever Krushna says to get to him, if you assume the role of son, then we will get independence and might act carelessly and NEVER get to him. We all know how we are! He is yes as you pointed out is a father to every atma

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Er India IS a democracy - the British didn't bring us democracy, we already had it. The Buddha went around Hindu India freely proselytizing and sharing his ideas - nothing happened to him. If the Buddha had been born in Europe in medieval times, the would have been branded a heretic and tortured to death. There would be no Buddhism today. No Jainism, Sikhism either. That's what democracy means - freedom of speech and ideas - where is the freedom in your religion? none. Just get down on your knees and beg for mercy?

...That's not what democracy means. Democracy is a system in which everyone (or mostly everyone) has a vote and can elect government, not autocratic kingdoms where the power is held by a monarch as it was in India, divided into many kingdoms for much of her history, or larger empires at times. When did India have this before the British came?

Universities like Oxford and Cambridge were known to be bastions of free speech and intellectual debate for centuries.

As for being held accountable - that is what Reincarnation is all about - if you die owing a debt, you must come back and repay - that is what being held accountable means. No Hindu is asked to just beg and cry for mercy and look for an easy way out - that's cheating your creditors and victims. Being abused in Hell is not justice, it is vengeance. No Justice in your God's realm - shows again that these are man-made medieval ideas that you are blindly following

Why is this system better than the Christian's? So this means if you see a baby in suffering, maybe one who is disabled, they must have deserved it from a previous life, right?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

God and the criminal get together and after a few croc tears from the criminal, he is forgiven and off he goes to heaven to enjoy? How is that justice? Where is the 3rd person in this? Where is the victim? How come he doesn't get to chime in? Just a religion happy to tell the criminal what he wants to hear - just repent, cry a few croc tears on your deathbed and you are done, nice God will forgive. nice God will cheat the victim?

Of course not. If it is just "croc tears" then there is no real repentance and no forgiveness.

Happened at Penn State a few years ago - the pedophile was found out a long time ago - the coach, the admin and the pedophile got together, the pedophile cried, promised he would never do it again, and they let him go! Who was missing from this meeting? The innocent victim, the poor child! They didn't bring him in because the kid or his parents wouldn't be in such a hurry to forgive, they would ask for the law to be brought in, the pedophile to be jailed! That's why they shut out the victim, as does your religion

I agree that no one deserves mercy. We are all deserving of God's justice, it is a true wonder that He forgives in the first place.

 

[kalyan]

Why is this system better than the Christian's? So this means if you see a baby in suffering, maybe one who is disabled, they must have deserved it from a previous life, right?

Does not mean you cannot help the child and leave him/her to his Karma, that is not sanatana dharma.
Christians fail as their main prophet blackmails people, you have to repent in this short life of ours or ELSE you are gonna burn in the eternal hell for ever, ? Does a father or mother ever leave you or want you to be in pain and that too eternal ? That is most cruel and its pure evil

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Does not mean you cannot help the child and leave him/her to his Karma, that is not sanatana dharma.
Christians fail as their main prophet blackmails people, you have to repent in this short life of ours or ELSE you are gonna burn in the eternal hell for ever, ? Does a father or mother ever leave you or want you to be in pain and that too eternal ? That is most cruel and its pure evil

It isn't blackmail, it's offering mercy to a people deserving of Hell for their rebellion against the infinitely worthy God.

 

[kalyan]

It isn't blackmail, it's offering mercy to a people deserving of Hell for their rebellion against the infinitely worthy God.

We are born in this mundane world full of materialistic pleasures and it is NATURAL for us to get deviated from the path of the god. Just because we are lost does not mean we are rebelling against the god in the larger sense and be punished for eternity. That is evil, and yes it is blackmail, worship me or else BURN..... We have to be given a chance and its absurd that a person will have all the knowledge to realise the god in 1 lifetime, its just not possible.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

We are born in this mundane world full of materialistic pleasures and it is NATURAL for us to get deviated from the path of the god. Just because we are lost does not mean we are rebelling against the god in the larger sense and be punished for eternity. That is evil, and yes it is blackmail, worship me or else BURN..... We have to be given a chance and its absurd that a person will have all the knowledge to realise the god in 1 lifetime, its just not possible.

It is possible, everyone has knowledge of God and chooses to rebel against Him.

 

[kalyan]

It is possible, everyone has knowledge of God and chooses to rebel against Him.

what about babies who die immediately when born? as they have zero knowledge of god, would they be burned in hell ?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

what about babies who die immediately when born? as they have zero knowledge of god, would they be burned in hell ?

When King David's son died he had hope that he would see him again and go to the place he was, so I would think they are not in Hell, no. (Though the Bible does not rule on this explicitly)

 

[ShivaFan]

To OP:

I am not talking any sides here, other than I am not of this school of yours.

However, I do understand your brain, and I think you will find your answers if you research the original writings of The Process Church of the Final Judgment, circa 1960's. They had a center in the Haight Ashbury in the 60's. You may have even borrowed something from them but missed the mark entirely. Or someone else did, and then told you the wrong thing. Something. It is not new, what you are saying, but also not in alignment with those who originated it.

 

[kalyan]

When King David's son died he had hope that he would see him again and go to the place he was, so I would think they are not in Hell, no. (Though the Bible does not rule on this explicitly)

Not sure what are you trying to say here but your answer is NOT clear at all .........

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Not sure what are you trying to say here but your answer is NOT clear at all .........

The Bible gives hope on the issue from the story of King David and his baby son that dies, but not an explicit answer like "all children go to heaven". I'm just giving you what the Bible says on the issue, no more or less.

 

[kalyan]

The Bible gives hope on the issue from the story of King David and his baby son that dies, but not an explicit answer like "all children go to heaven". I'm just giving you what the Bible says on the issue, no more or less.

what do you believe ?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

what do you believe ?

What the Bible says.

 

[kalyan]

What the Bible says.

But it does not say clearly as you explained and that is why I asked you what do you believe?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

But it does not say clearly as you explained and that is why I asked you what do you believe?

I try to not believe more or less than what the Bible says on the issue. I have hope, but not an explicit certainty.