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God is cruel

Is God cruel?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 34.4%
  • No

    Votes: 21 65.6%

  • Total voters
    32

Dinos

Religious Truth
God could have not given us all free will, and then we could all be His puppets or drones. With positive things coming from free will, unfortunately also comes bad things. I've heard that people feel God giving His creation free will is what makes Him cruel, but I think differently.

Dear Deidre,

How can a four-year-old girl exercise her free will to prevent her maladjusted father from raping her regularly? Does God only give free will to people who are physically strong, mature and able to act without a conscience? Is God oblivious to the rights of a defenceless girl? Do perpetrators have free will but not victims? Below is an account of how Pan and her brother have suffered that was posted on another website:


Pan says:
June 21, 2016 at 2:11 PM


As I have said I do not mean to offend, I myself have had a very hard live, my father was a soldier and did some horrible things in the name of his country because of this he drank a lot, and he abused my brother, my mother and myself. On one of these nights where he became so drunk he hung my mother by her feet from the 10th story from the flats balcony where we lived. I was 4 my brother was 6, both me and my brother tried to stop him, he knocked my brother unconscious and he kicked me away. I started crying and he pulled my mother back up and started apologising.


There were some days that we thought that we would die, but we never did. He was not a bad man but the horrible things that he had done warped his mind ultimately. He passed away when I was 6, he never amended his will, my grandparents took everything from us, and we were left with nothing. My mother’s parents wrote her off when she married my father and she had no family that we could turn to. My father’s parents never wanted my father to marry my mother either and never saw us as part of the family. We had no one to go to. People from a Christian church helped us, my mother worked hard to provide for us and we started going to church, none of it was ever easy, there where nights when she would not eat so that we could. But every time we were faced with the most difficult of situations my mother would pray and ask for help. We received our help, a car was donated to my mother through the church so that she could get to work.


Things were going well and we were happy. My mother then ran into someone that she knew from her past. We stopped going to church, my mother spend less time with God and more time with this man, after two years they got married. This man abused me and my brother yet again, we were sent off to boarding school and eventually, my mother caught this man in bed with another man, she was heartbroken.


She was trying to divorce this man, but he would not have it. We were stuck in a very bad situation again, things were going horribly, my mother tried to commit suicide. She was saved by one of her friends. The man that she married tried to use this against her to take me and my brother away from her. Once again the people who had helped us in the binning helped us. My mom was granted her divorce, we started going to church again, things where slowly getting better again.


My mother never wanted another man in her life after that, but then she met a man that loved God with all his heart, this man adopted me and my brother, he never wanted any other children because we were enough. He is the best father that I could ever have asked for. Even if I look back now I have no hate for any of the people in my past. Every time that we truly needed help God was there.


If all this had not happened, we would have never met my dad, it made my faith stronger, not weaker. I was one of those children who suffered, I had cracked bones and black and blue bruises every week. I have every right to question God but I don’t need to. I know that if I did not have the life I had then I would never be where I am now, that also does not mean that because my mom turned away from God that she was punished. She made the wrong decisions and ignored warnings from people who had her best interests at heart. We all suffered the consequences of that.


“There is no need to imagine that God may have a grand plan and that we mere mortals cannot see things from His perspective – this is putting ourselves in a box! If you believe that God has revealed Himself in the scriptures, then, as you’ve said, you will find Him showing that He is wrathful, vengeful and jealous, but these are human traits, not godly ones.”


You are mistaken to say that we would put ourselves in a box, on the contrary I am able to help more people and also understand their pain and relate. I have extreme companion for those in need and would not have that if I had lead an easy life. “But these are human traits,” We were created in God’s image, meaning they are also traits that describe God.


“And they do not do good deeds to avoid eternal damnation,” see this is the key, you should do good because, it is good. Not because you fear what will happen if you don’t. You should want to be good for your own accord. So as to not inflict suffering on others that is what God wants.


As for the seed you would have to study the tree to find out that the seed has to be in the ground to grow or someone would have to teach you. If there are things we do not understand we are not meant to just accept them but ask and we will be answered, seek and we will find. God also wants us to search for Him to learn as much as possible to find Him.


dinoconstant says:
June 21, 2016 at 11:06 PM


Hello Pan!


What a conversation we are having and thank you for sharing your grim life experiences.


As I said in my previous post, it is a great responsibility to raise children. I do not mean to cause offence, but it wasn’t helpful of your mother to introduce you to further grief with another man from her past. Also, you suffered enough from your biological father and there was no need for further suffering to shape you into the person you are.


The good experience you have received from the church that you attend and from your current father may be more important in shaping who you are than all the grief you suffered. The church that you attend, is it evangelical? Do you believe that the Bible is God-breathed and inerrant in its entirety? I congratulate your church for the ways they have helped you and your family with their good deeds, e.g. donating a car to your mother to help her to find work.



Deidre, I'd be interested to read your thoughts.

Peace and love to all,

Dinos
 
Last edited:

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Everyone has free will, and some use it for bad, some for good.

But, I've been thinking lately about determinism, and if everything is already planned out in advance, if we really don't have free will...then, how should we view this same post that you present? If the criminal who is hurting an innocent 4 year old, doesn't have free will...and everything has been pre-determined, what does that mean for humanity? Are choices and free will just mere illusions?

There is something comforting about knowing that I have the freedom to make choices for my life, but scary that others have choices too and might choose badly, might choose to hurt me or an innocent child, for example. So, how to view this, do you think?

Dear Deidre,

How can a four-year-old girl exercise her free will to prevent her maladjusted father from raping her regularly? Does God only give free will to people who are physically strong, mature and able to act without a conscience? Is God oblivious to the rights of a defenceless girl? Do perpetrators have free will but not victims? Below is an account of how Pan and her brother have suffered that was posted on another website:


Pan says:
June 21, 2016 at 2:11 PM


As I have said I do not mean to offend, I myself have had a very hard live, my father was a soldier and did some horrible things in the name of his country because of this he drank a lot, and he abused my brother, my mother and myself. On one of these nights where he became so drunk he hung my mother by her feet from the 10th story from the flats balcony where we lived. I was 4 my brother was 6, both me and my brother tried to stop him, he knocked my brother unconscious and he kicked me away. I started crying and he pulled my mother back up and started apologising.


There were some days that we thought that we would die, but we never did. He was not a bad man but the horrible things that he had done warped his mind ultimately. He passed away when I was 6, he never amended his will, my grandparents took everything from us, and we were left with nothing. My mother’s parents wrote her off when she married my father and she had no family that we could turn to. My father’s parents never wanted my father to marry my mother either and never saw us as part of the family. We had no one to go to. People from a Christian church helped us, my mother worked hard to provide for us and we started going to church, none of it was ever easy, there where nights when she would not eat so that we could. But every time we were faced with the most difficult of situations my mother would pray and ask for help. We received our help, a car was donated to my mother through the church so that she could get to work.


Things were going well and we were happy. My mother then ran into someone that she knew from her past. We stopped going to church, my mother spend less time with God and more time with this man, after two years they got married. This man abused me and my brother yet again, we were sent off to boarding school and eventually, my mother caught this man in bed with another man, she was heartbroken.


She was trying to divorce this man, but he would not have it. We were stuck in a very bad situation again, things were going horribly, my mother tried to commit suicide. She was saved by one of her friends. The man that she married tried to use this against her to take me and my brother away from her. Once again the people who had helped us in the binning helped us. My mom was granted her divorce, we started going to church again, things where slowly getting better again.


My mother never wanted another man in her life after that, but then she met a man that loved God with all his heart, this man adopted me and my brother, he never wanted any other children because we were enough. He is the best father that I could ever have asked for. Even if I look back now I have no hate for any of the people in my past. Every time that we truly needed help God was there.


If all this had not happened, we would have never met my dad, it made my faith stronger, not weaker. I was one of those children who suffered, I had cracked bones and black and blue bruises every week. I have every right to question God but I don’t need to. I know that if I did not have the life I had then I would never be where I am now, that also does not mean that because my mom turned away from God that she was punished. She made the wrong decisions and ignored warnings from people who had her best interests at heart. We all suffered the consequences of that.


“There is no need to imagine that God may have a grand plan and that we mere mortals cannot see things from His perspective – this is putting ourselves in a box! If you believe that God has revealed Himself in the scriptures, then, as you’ve said, you will find Him showing that He is wrathful, vengeful and jealous, but these are human traits, not godly ones.”


You are mistaken to say that we would put ourselves in a box, on the contrary I am able to help more people and also understand their pain and relate. I have extreme companion for those in need and would not have that if I had lead an easy life. “But these are human traits,” We were created in God’s image, meaning they are also traits that describe God.


“And they do not do good deeds to avoid eternal damnation,” see this is the key, you should do good because, it is good. Not because you fear what will happen if you don’t. You should want to be good for your own accord. So as to not inflict suffering on others that is what God wants.


As for the seed you would have to study the tree to find out that the seed has to be in the ground to grow or someone would have to teach you. If there are things we do not understand we are not meant to just accept them but ask and we will be answered, seek and we will find. God also wants us to search for Him to learn as much as possible to find Him.


dinoconstant says:
June 21, 2016 at 11:06 PM


Hello Pan!


What a conversation we are having and thank you for sharing your grim life experiences.


As I said in my previous post, it is a great responsibility to raise children. I do not mean to cause offence, but it wasn’t helpful of your mother to introduce you to further grief with another man from her past. Also, you suffered enough from your biological father and there was no need for further suffering to shape you into the person you are.


The good experience you have received from the church that you attend and from your current father may be more important in shaping who you are than all the grief you suffered. The church that you attend, is it evangelical? Do you believe that the Bible is God-breathed and inerrant in its entirety? I congratulate your church for the ways they have helped you and your family with their good deeds, e.g. donating a car to your mother to help her to find work.



Deidre, I'd be interested to read your thoughts.

Peace and love to all,

Dinos
 

Mary Blackchurch

Free from Stockholm Syndrome
It's not about what Ted Bundy believes: truth speaks to each of us, alone. If you genuinely believe, for yourself, that "if Truth tells us what to believe, there are times we shouldn't," then that's it.

Then it stands to reason that what Ted Bundy believed was also the truth. And that's not a "universal truth" in any organically normal person's world. So, as I stated and circling back, there is no one Universal Truth - there are only "truths" spoken by many and believed by billions. What you seem to be referring to is a larger conceptual idea. And I disagree with that as well. It's too indicative of a personal deity type of truth. And as I stated, if that were the case then truth could also be a lie. And that's circular logic.
 

Mary Blackchurch

Free from Stockholm Syndrome
Everyone has free will, and some use it for bad, some for good.

Then what about the person's will to not be raped or murdered, for example. Who is looking out for their free will? Or are you saying that their will to live does not count but only the free will of the rapist/murderer?
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Then what about the person's will to not be raped or murdered, for example. Who is looking out for their free will? Or are you saying that their will to live does not count but only the free will of the rapist/murderer?
I never said this. Would never think this.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Then it stands to reason that what Ted Bundy believed was also the truth. And that's not a "universal truth" in any organically normal person's world. So, as I stated and circling back, there is no one Universal Truth - there are only "truths" spoken by many and believed by billions. What you seem to be referring to is a larger conceptual idea. And I disagree with that as well. It's too indicative of a personal deity type of truth. And as I stated, if that were the case then truth could also be a lie. And that's circular logic.
There is no universal truth; rather, truth is universal. If you can put a "truth" in words it's not truth, it's just proposition.

It's like pointing at the moon and expecting that the moon, rather than your finger, is the truth of "pointing."
 

Mary Blackchurch

Free from Stockholm Syndrome
There is no universal truth; rather, truth is universal. If you can put a "truth" in words it's not truth, it's just proposition.

It's like pointing at the moon and expecting that the moon, rather than your finger, is the truth of "pointing."

Really? How so? Could you explain that without using a proposition? Because I see no meaningful distinction. Is the only universal truth that there are not universal truths? Here goes the circular logic again...
 

Upaava

Member
Truly I think God is cruel. He watches so many people in agony and refuses to console them.

My brother, and readers, I know you have been suffering in this life and are trying to understand why God allows this, for you and others. I will offer some explanation expanding on what others have already said about free will.

God has set us in creation with the opportunity to Find Him using our free will choices. Every choice has a consequence and some consequences are very painful. But pain and suffering are sometimes the only way we can recognize our past choices were leading us in the wrong direction, so we can reset our courses to one that leads us to find Him.

Within most religions is the idea we have been returning from lifetime-to-lifetime to continue on our journeys to find God. Our past lifetime's choices follow us into our next lifetime, so that we reap what was sown in the past, including consequences that include suffering-- not as a punishment, but as mentioned before, as an opportunity to make wiser choices that lead us home to God.

Thus, free will has allowed us to choose as we wish, and the returning consequences (sometimes called Karma) have brought us experiences that help direct us to new choices leading in the right direction. These returning consequences are described in biblical passages within many religions. In the Christian religion one passage showing this free will learning process is “...cast your bread upon the waters after many days it will return to you...” The “bread” are your choices, what is returned to you are the consequences, sent to help you choose a wiser course in your search to find God.

All of this suggests that God is not being cruel, but is giving each of us the opportunity to perfect ourselves using our own, free-will to find our ways to Him, which often includes suffering to break through mental patterns that have been otherwise hard to break-- seen in this light, as unlikely as it may seem in this age, suffering can actually be a blessing.

So do your best not to become unfaithful or bitter; instead keep your faith and trust in God that He has NOT abandoned you, but is there with you through all your trials and tribulations, helping you to find Him and be set free.
 
Last edited:

Upaava

Member
Truly I think God is cruel. He watches so many people in agony and refuses to console them.

My brother, and readers, I know you have been suffering in this life and are trying to understand why God allows this, for you and others. I will offer some explanation expanding on what others have already said about free will.

God has set us in creation with the opportunity to Find Him using our free will choices. Every choice has a consequence and some consequences are very painful. But pain and suffering are sometimes the only way we can recognize our past choices were leading us in the wrong direction, so we can reset our courses to one that leads us to find Him.

Within most religions is the idea we have been returning from lifetime-to-lifetime to continue on our journeys to find God. Our past lifetime's choices follow us into our next lifetime, so that we reap what was sown in the past, including consequences that include suffering-- not as a punishment, but as mentioned before, as an opportunity to make wiser choices that lead us home to God.

Thus, free will has allowed us to choose as we wish, and the returning consequences (sometimes called Karma) have brought us experiences that help direct us to new choices leading in the right direction. These returning consequences are described in biblical passages within many religions; in the Christian religion one passage showing this free-will learning process is “...cast your bread upon the waters after many days it will return to you...” The “bread” are your choices, what is returned to you are the consequences, sent to help you choose a wiser course in your search to be perfected and find God.

All of this suggests that God is not being cruel, but is giving each of us the opportunity to perfect ourselves using our own choices, and is helping us by returning the consequences of those choices to guide us. Those consequences can include suffering, when needed to break through mental patterns that have been otherwise hard to break, allowing us to move in a good direction again-- seen in this light, suffering can actually be a blessing.

So do your best not to become unfaithful or bitter; instead keep your faith and trust in God that He has NOT abandoned you, but is there with you through all your trials and tribulations, helping you to find Him and be set free.
 

Mary Blackchurch

Free from Stockholm Syndrome
God has set us in creation with the opportunity to Find Him using our free will choices. Every choice has a consequence and some consequences are very painful. But pain and suffering are sometimes the only way we can recognize our past choices were leading us in the wrong direction, so we can reset our courses to one that leads us to find Him.

So the best way to find god is through suffering through our choices and/or the choices of others? What an under-achiever s/he it is! How about just come out from hiding? Simple.
 

Upaava

Member
So the best way to find god is through suffering through our choices and/or the choices of others? What an under-achiever s/he it is! How about just come out from hiding? Simple.

Arrogance is a stumbling block, Mary. Humility is more helpful in finding the truth, if it's truth you wish..
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Could you explain that without using a proposition?
Of course not, "to explain" is to use words.

Rather, I'm trying to point at truth with words. If I fail, fair enough.

Is the only universal truth that there are not universal truths? Here goes the circular logic again...
The universal truth is not propositional, it's the value that informs the proposition. Propositional "truths" are mutable, as mutable as the world.
 

Davarr

Member
Because he expects more prayer and worship. Meaning the more they pray to him the more power they give him. God desires power.


It is the same when christians use Lucifer as a scapegoat.


I would help too if I can.
lol read the Book of Job. Satan was tricked twice into doing Yahweh's work. further, he could win his war with Jehovah by quitting, which he wont, since the Revelation tells us what he is going to do. But I respect your honesty and bravery. You aren't hiding behind a crappy atheist defense. I just wouldn't bank too hard on a deity with as bad a resume as Lucifer's.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Then what about the person's will to not be raped or murdered, for example. Who is looking out for their free will? Or are you saying that their will to live does not count but only the free will of the rapist/murderer?

This sentence doesn't make any sense. Free will only involves the actions we take, not what happens to us. Not getting raped or murdered isn't an action.

And btw, responding to Deidre's post the way you did is just like responding to someone who said, "I like dogs" with, "Oh? So you think we should bite the heads off kittens and suck their guts out?"
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Everyone has free will, and some use it for bad, some for good.

But, I've been thinking lately about determinism, and if everything is already planned out in advance, if we really don't have free will...then, how should we view this same post that you present? If the criminal who is hurting an innocent 4 year old, doesn't have free will...and everything has been pre-determined, what does that mean for humanity? Are choices and free will just mere illusions?

There is something comforting about knowing that I have the freedom to make choices for my life, but scary that others have choices too and might choose badly, might choose to hurt me or an innocent child, for example. So, how to view this, do you think?
Deidre, I'm sorry for offending you. It just really hurts me to see how much pain so many people are in and I know what God can do about it. I beg your pardon!
 
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