"God is a woman"

[The Kilted Heathen]

The deity from a culture that didn't have a gendered word for deity.

Oh, you mean the words 'el (male deity) and 'elat (female deity)? Yeah.

And somehow the English language is relative for this discussion!!

Yes, the English language is quite relevant for this discussion, as we're discussing a modern English word. Quite hypocritical for you to now suggest that somehow English is irrelevant, when you decided to introduce yourself here by calling to question my grasp of English grammar.

"Man" in singular was once gender neutral. English had the word "wereman" for male person specifically because 'man" was once just "person".

No, it once wasn't. All the way back to the PIE root of 'mon' it is a word for adult male person. The Old English word "werman" denotes a husband, not just a man. It's usage to indicate men in general has fewer than three uses in entirety, which in etymological studies does not constitute a fact.

The word that you're searching for is the Old English mann, which does denote all of humankind in general, but is not the same as man, just as "man" is not the same as "human" or "mankind". To claim such just because those words include "man" is grossly irresponsible, over-simplified, and grammatically ignorant.

Even your own post states that the oldest term for "god" was originally a gender neutral term.

No, I have stated that the root of the word "god" was gender neutral. With the introduction of monotheism to European polytheistic worship, "goddess" was a necessary gender-form addition. Before then it was practically the same as the Greek өεός (theos) meaning "divine" or "deity".

So your argument boils down to "Christian God is male because of this specific evolution of the English language" which is just patently ridiculous.

No. Regarding the Christian god, he is male because Yahweh is male. He is never referred to as a female deity. My argument in regards to the word "god" is that it refers to a male deity, and is nonsensical to use in reference to a female deity. No one calls Freyja the god of love and female fertility.

The old myths state that Loki, in the form of a Mare, went off with a Stallion, and months later came back with a baby horse.

No, not the old myths. The Prose Edda - Snorri's interpretation - otherwise called the Younger Edda. The birth of Sleipnir is not found in the old myths, and it is only ever stated that Sleipnir is the "greatest of all horses".

However in the Prose Edda, Loki lures Svaðilfari away, returns with Sleipnir, and not-so-oddly enough, Svaðilfari is never seen nor heard from again. It could be that Loki birthed Sleipnir, or it could be that Loki got Svaðilfari with a mare, and brought back Sleipnir. Or, even still, it could be that Loki created Sleipnir from Svaðilfari, as the later is never seen again.

Still yet, you're referencing myths under the assumption that they're held as fact. Especially the myths as interpreted and (frankly) mangled by Snorri. It's not really providing a strong case to your claims (and arrogant attitude that we need less of) regarding the word "god" as a male-gendered word.

Those are some legit ridiculous hoops you are jumping through just to assert Loki didn't give birth as a female horse, when that is clearly the implication of the story!!

Actually the point and implication of that story is that the Aesir are not above dishonor, as they tricked the jotun builder so that he wouldn't win a wager (and thus Freyja's hand in marriage), and then killed him when he called them on their actions. The bit of Loki and Sleipnir is a very minor part in Snorri's tale.

 

[Electra]

... But the "oven" in your analogy does not have all the ingredients. It is missing one.

Absolutely not, nourishment is provided from the mother. A description of sperm as "fertilizer" is worse than a description of sperm as a "seed". If you want a good analogy, sperm is "half the recipe" for the child.

That is absolute speculation and has never been shown in a human. Parthenogenesis has never been shown to occur in a mammal!! And that's a good thing, since human parthenogenesis-born offspring would suffer much more of the ill effects of inbreeding.

Why the debate over this?? Two people are ultimately needed to create a child. Both give life. Both are necessary until one of the many speculators can show an example of human parthenogenesis actually occurring. And even if that is shown, a woman creating a child all her own is an anomaly, which doesn't change the general rule that two people are required, and the poor child resulting from that is effectively inbred.

wasn't my analogy...

a female already has enough dna, so extra dna is not necessary. So na....not really

Parthenogenesis has happened to myelf and to a couple freinds, one has never even kissed someone!

I will show the world.
And na dude, not at all, they are shown to have extra-ordinary abilities.
If you actually reserch parthenogenesis, it was the way that most people had babies! It has been in a decline when we dropped frequency as the mother needs to be in a certain frequincy/health/p.H

I don't care to debate but it's silly that some aren't open to what could be.

This is MY REALITY

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

wasn't my analogy...

The metaphor stands. An oven does not bake the pie on it's own, but you would have us credit the pie entirely, foregoing the baker.

a female already has enough dna, so extra dna is not necessary. So na....not really

Yeah, yeah really. A female does not have "enough DNA" as she lacks the paternal genetic imprints that make a full mammalian being. That's why induced parthenogenesis (i.e. not natural) resulted in abnormalities and deformations. Making your claims about you and "a couple friends" evidently falsehoods; it is biologically impossible, and you won't be able to "show the world".

If you actually reserch parthenogenesis, it was the way that most people had babies! It has been in a decline when we dropped frequency as the mother needs to be in a certain frequincy/health/p.H

You've been reading way too many wild theories and fantasies.

This is MY REALITY

Write a book about it, then, because it's more fitting in fantasy. Your "reality" violates all natural laws and claim for the impossible.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Actually since God selects mostly pronouns for himself, I doubt that

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

What do you doubt, and wouldn't you mean god selects pronouns for themselves?

 

[Hildeburh]

Ah it's just trolls having fun and trying to be "edgy". Nobody is questioning the gender of Odin, Zues, Hades or any other typically male dieties. They are just trying to get people worked up over a trivial issue.

Gender or sex they are not the same thing:
Sex = male and female
Gender = masculine and feminine

Sex: refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.
Gender: describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.

What is the difference between sex and gender?

Yes, Odins gender or masculinity was questioned, he was accussed of ergi (ergi=unmanliness/ femininity/ cowardice/ taking the females role in sex).

Othin spake:
"Though I gave to him | who deserved not the gift,
To the baser, the battle's prize;
Winters eight | wast thou under the earth,
Milking the cows as a maid,
(Ay, and babes didst thou bear;
Unmanly thy soul must seem.)"

Loki spake:
"They say that with spells | in Samsey once
Like witches with charms didst thou work;
And in witch's guise | among men didst thou go;
Unmanly thy soul must seem."
Lokasenna

The Poetic Edda: Lokasenna

Crossing gender boundaries is not unusual in Norse mythology.

 

[Hildeburh]

At best (going off the root word of 'ghut',) "that which is worshiped" - forces of nature or geographical presence. At worst, nothing. Without words to define something, everything becomes a complete meaningless mess. My point is that "god" is the masculine form of the word, "goddess" the feminine. Saying "God the mother" doesn't really logically work; it's like saying "The man was having her period".

PIE *ghut-"that which is invoked" not worshiped (source also of Old Church Slavonic zovo "to call," Sanskrit huta- "invoked," an epithet of Indra), from root *gheu(e)- "to call, invoke."

The Germanic cognates were neuter nouns. Neuter nouns =does not specify the sex of subject.

god | Origin and meaning of god by Online Etymology Dictionary

Grammatical gender is less common in modern English, declining in middle english, which is when the word goddess appeared.

The word goddess appeared in middle English 1350

goddess | Origin and meaning of goddess by Online Etymology Dictionary

Suffix 'ess'

-ess | Origin and meaning of suffix -ess by Online Etymology Dictionary

There was no need for the the word goddess in the PIE, Proto-Germanic and in the Old Germanic languages as the word god was neuter. Ergo saying "god the mother" would have been considered, in any of the Old Germanic languages, as redundant as it applied to either sex.

 

[Hildeburh]

Even your own religion just calls Loki a "god' despite the fact he often changes his gender.

No it doesn't, Loki is not attested as being a god anywhere in our corpus, the cult of Loki as a god is an entirely modern construct.

 

[Hildeburh]

The word that you're searching for is the Old English mann, which does denote all of humankind in general, but is not the same as man, just as "man" is not the same as "human" or "mankind".

In Old English mann ( person/human) is the singular nominative and accusative form only, the plural nominate and accusative in menn. Mankind is plural and so would be eormencynn.

No, not the old myths. The Prose Edda - Snorri's interpretation - otherwise called the Younger Edda. The birth of Sleipnir is not found in the old myths, and it is only ever stated that Sleipnir is the "greatest of all horses".

It is alluded to in Lokasenna:
Othin spake:
"Though I gave to him | who deserved not the gift,
To the baser, the battle's prize;
Winters eight | wast thou under the earth,
Milking the cows as a maid,
(Ay, and babes didst thou bear;
Unmanly thy soul must seem.)"

 

[Enoch07]

Gender or sex they are not the same thing:
Sex = male and female
Gender = masculine and feminine

Sex: refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.
Gender: describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.

What is the difference between sex and gender?

Yes, Odins gender or masculinity was questioned, he was accussed of ergi (ergi=unmanliness/ femininity/ cowardice/ taking the females role in sex).

Othin spake:
"Though I gave to him | who deserved not the gift,
To the baser, the battle's prize;
Winters eight | wast thou under the earth,
Milking the cows as a maid,
(Ay, and babes didst thou bear;
Unmanly thy soul must seem.)"

Loki spake:
"They say that with spells | in Samsey once
Like witches with charms didst thou work;
And in witch's guise | among men didst thou go;
Unmanly thy soul must seem."
Lokasenna

The Poetic Edda: Lokasenna

Crossing gender boundaries is not unusual in Norse mythology.

The terms are interchangeable for a lot of people. Gender has 2 or 3 meanings, sex has 2 or 3. So I keep it simple and use.

Gender = biological gender

Gender identity = psychological gender

Gender is determined by chromosomes.

Gender Identity is the gender a person identifies as which may or may not match their biological gender.

Then it goes on to sexual orientation, sexual preference etc. All of which can be in any combination.

 

[Hildeburh]

The terms are interchangeable for a lot of people. Gender has 2 or 3 meanings, sex has 2 or 3. So I keep it simple and use.

Gender = biological gender

Gender identity = psychological gender

Gender is determined by chromosomes.

Gender Identity is the gender a person identifies as which may or may not match their biological gender.

Then it goes on to sexual orientation, sexual preference etc. All of which can be in any combination.

Sex is determined by chromosomes, gender is not. You may like to keep it simple but it is not, gender and sex are conceptually distinct. Gender is a social construct and is recognised as such under the law.

Definitions used for clarity under the law:

Sex refers to the chromosomal, gonadal and anatomical characteristics associated with biological sex.

Gender is part of a person’s personal and social identity. It refers to the way a person feels, presents and is recognised within the community. A person’s gender may be reflected inoutward social markers, including their name, outward appearance, mannerisms and dress.

Intersex refers to people who are born with genetic, hormonal or physical sex characteristics that are not typically ‘male’ or ‘female’. Intersex people have diversity of bodies and gender identities, and may identify as male or female or neither.

Australia Government Guidelines on the Recognition of Sex and Gender.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Crossing gender boundaries is not unusual in Norse mythology.

Yes it was, elsewise it would not have been treated as an oddity. Loki would not have barbed Odin as being "unmanly", (and Odin re-barbing Loki as such) and there would have been more than a handful of instances where gender boundaries were crossed. For as much grief as is given injecting modern views into "the old ways," such is very much viewing the past through modern eyes.

Which, as I've said before and elsewhere, we have no choice but to. What we do have a choice with is making claims about the past based on our views and morals today. Regarding gender, it was the same in terminology as biological sex (in reference to humans) until 1977. "Sex" was used first in the 15th Century, but as it became more commonly associated with the act of reproduction, "gender" became the prudishly preferred term in regards to male and female.

Back to the gods and mythology, gender roles being crossed may have example, and might have happened from time to time, but I sincerely doubt that it was either common or usual.

PIE *ghut-"that which is invoked" not worshiped (source also of Old Church Slavonic zovo "to call," Sanskrit huta- "invoked," an epithet of Indra), from root *gheu(e)- "to call, invoke."

Well, in regards to theology invoking is defined as "to make a request for help".

The Germanic cognates were neuter nouns. Neuter nouns =does not specify the sex of subject.

So far as can be told, yes. I did even mention that the Old German 'got' was a neutral term meaning "deity" in general. And yet, such gendered words did exist. For example, the words ásur (m) and ásynja (f). Or even going so far back as the Canaanite 'el and 'elat. "Goddess" as a word itself may have appeared in the 1300's, but words for male and female deities have existed long before then.

There was no need for the the word goddess in the PIE, Proto-Germanic and in the Old Germanic languages as the word god was neuter. Ergo saying "god the mother" would have been considered, in any of the Old Germanic languages, as redundant as it applied to either sex.

It would be possible, but we can't say if it would have been considered. Given that the Germanic peoples had no qualms about naming their deities, it would be more practically to assume that the phrase in question would be worded "Frigg the mother is a god".

No it doesn't, Loki is not attested as being a god anywhere in our corpus, the cult of Loki as a god is an entirely modern construct.

Okay I'm confused. You've criticized me constantly for referring to Heathenry world-wide, drilling with "who's Heathenry?" and arguing that there's not a global community or "Heathen world-view". So I'm going to ask here; who's corpus? Heathen text in general? Icelandic? Anglo-Saxon?

True, Loki doesn't appear anywhere in your specific texts and myths (Anglo-Saxon), but he is quite attested as being among the Aesir as equal - and blood brother to Odin - in Icelandic texts. He is named among Odin and Hœnir in the Reginsmál, as well as quite possibly in the Völuspá as creating mankind with them. (by the name Lóðurr, according to some scholars.)

As for his historical worship, this has some evidence. The Snaptun stone is a hearthstone with the carving of a face that has been identified as Loki; through the scarred lips which reference the sons of Ivaldi sewing his lips shut as told in the Skáldskaparmál. The function of the stone suggest a tie between Loki and forging. There was also an archeological find of a Loki pendant in a boat burial in Bitterstad, Norway. Pendants aren't usually made for gods that aren't worshiped.

It is alluded to in Lokasenna:
Othin spake:
"Though I gave to him | who deserved not the gift,
To the baser, the battle's prize;
Winters eight | wast thou under the earth,
Milking the cows as a maid,
(Ay, and babes didst thou bear;
Unmanly thy soul must seem.)"

Two problems arise. Firstly, the final three lines of that stanza are regarded as spurious and later additions to the text. Secondly, to taunt a man of "bearing babes" was not uncommon in such flyting contests, it doesn't mean it's a literal happening. It's like today saying "I know who wears the pants in that family," or other such ways calling to question a man's "manliness". This especially is also damning to the notion that gender lines being crossed was seen as normal or acceptable.

 

[Enoch07]

Sex is determined by chromosomes, gender is not. You may like to keep it simple but it is not, gender and sex are conceptually distinct. Gender is a social construct and is recognised as such under the law.

Definitions used for clarity under the law:

Sex refers to the chromosomal, gonadal and anatomical characteristics associated with biological sex.

Gender is part of a person’s personal and social identity. It refers to the way a person feels, presents and is recognised within the community. A person’s gender may be reflected inoutward social markers, including their name, outward appearance, mannerisms and dress.

Intersex refers to people who are born with genetic, hormonal or physical sex characteristics that are not typically ‘male’ or ‘female’. Intersex people have diversity of bodies and gender identities, and may identify as male or female or neither.

Australia Government Guidelines on the Recognition of Sex and Gender.

If everyone adhered to Australian law, there would not be a problem. But that's not how it works in reality.

Intersex is also extremely rare, and not a separate sex.

 

[viole]

I can't post in the Christian DIR section, but wanted to address this.

No, the Christian god is not feminine. Named, he is Yahweh, and very much a male deity. If a non-descript deity - "God" - is female, then it would be better termed goddess, or even just deity (as that's gender neutral).

I suggest we consider the latest inspiration of the Lutheran church of Sweden. Namely, that God has no gender. And it is therefore not correct to refer to God as /Him/Her. I wonder what God thinks about having been incorrectly addressed as "He" in the last few centuries, but I am confident It will not make a big fuss about it, on account of not having a rest room problem Itself and by being omniscient and therefore knowing in advance that we would realize Its sexual neutrality.

Northern languages like German and English are lucky. They can use "It" when referring to God. Latin languages, like Italian, less so, since they do not contemplate a gender neutral form, in most cases. Of course the church of Sweden could not know that, being very not latin.

A possible solution for believers whose languages have no neutral form is that they alternate "Him" to "Her" in order to obtain a gender independent average.

What do our latin language believers think about that possible compromise?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hildeburh]

Yes it was, elsewise it would not have been treated as an oddity. Loki would not have barbed Odin as being "unmanly", (and Odin re-barbing Loki as such) and there would have been more than a handful of instances where gender boundaries were crossed. For as much grief as is given injecting modern views into "the old ways," such is very much viewing the past through modern eyes.

Which, as I've said before and elsewhere, we have no choice but to. What we do have a choice with is making claims about the past based on our views and morals today. Regarding gender, it was the same in terminology as biological sex (in reference to humans) until 1977. "Sex" was used first in the 15th Century, but as it became more commonly associated with the act of reproduction, "gender" became the prudishly preferred term in regards to male and female.

Back to the gods and mythology, gender roles being crossed may have example, and might have happened from time to time, but I sincerely doubt that it was either common or usual.

From Norse mythology:

• Thor dressed as a woman in Thrymskviða,
• Odin shaped shifted into a medicine woman for the rape of Rinda/r. Gesta Danorum, Book 3,
• Odin in Lokisenna "And in witch's guise | among men didst thou go;
Unmanly thy soul must seem."
• Loki in dresses as a bridesmaid in Thrymskviða
• Loki becomes a mare in Gylfaginning
• Possibly Loki becomes giantess Tokk and refuses to cry for Baldr. Gylfaginning
• Odin practices seidr which was considered ergi, Ynglingasaga
• Seidr originated among the Vanir and was practiced by the Vanir ( no sex is mentioned) Ynglingasaga
• Freyja taught seidr to the Aesir (Aesir in general) Ynglingasaga

I didn't say common I said not unusual, I think that qualifies as not unusual.

It's actually you that is looking at Norse mythology through modern eyes, the examples I have given you would have been considered ergi in Old Norse society because they crossed gender boundaries. Gender bounderies were rigid in Old Norse society and crossing or deviating from them carried serious penalties.


The Gulaþing Law of Norway 100-1200 CE
Concerning terms of abuse or insult. There are words which are considered terms of abuse. Item one: if a man say of another man that he has borne a child. Item two: if a man say of another man that he has been homosexually used. Item three: if a man compare another man to a mare, or call him a ***** or a harlot, or compare him to any animal which bears young".(Translation by Markey, "Nordic Níðvisur: an Instance of Ritual Inversion?" in Studies in Medieval Culture 10 (1977) pp. 75-85).


Grágás 1100-1200 CE
"Then there are three terms which occasion bringing such a serious suit against a man that they are worthy to outlaw him. If a man call a man unmanly [effeminate], or homosexual, or demonstrably homosexually used by another man, he shall proceed to prosecute as with other terms of abuse, and indeed a man has the right to avenge with combat for these terms of abuse" (Translation by Markey, "Nordic Níðvisur: an Instance of Ritual Inversion?" in Studies in Medieval Culture 10 (1977) pp. 75-85).

Well, in regards to theology invoking is defined as "to make a request for help"..

And, what is your point????? Does that change the meaning of PIE *ghut? No.

As far as can be told, yes. I did even mention that the Old German 'got' was a neutral term meaning "deity" in general. And yet, such gendered words did exist. For example, the words ásur (m) and ásynja (f). Or even going so far back as the Canaanite 'el and 'elat. "Goddess" as a word itself may have appeared in the 1300's, but words for male and female deities have existed long before then.

I don't know why you are addressing this to me, my only comment was on the etymology of the Modern english word goddess. I was quite clear in my last rely I was discussing the word god in PIE , cognates in the Old Germanic languages and goddess in modern english. I didnt say there were no gendered names in Old Norse for male and female deities, though in Norse mythology these names applied only seem to members of the Aesir.

As far as can be told? Reconstructions for PIE and Proto-Germanic but linguistic morphology for the Germanic languages is established.

It would be possible, but we can't say if it would have been considered. Given that the Germanic peoples had no qualms about naming their deities, it would be more practically to assume that the phrase in question would be worded "Frigg the mother is a god".

I wouldn't bother to assume, I was speaking from a purely general linguistic perspective.

Okay I'm confused. You've criticized me constantly for referring to Heathenry world-wide, drilling with "who's Heathenry?" and arguing that there's not a global community or "Heathen world-view". So I'm going to ask here; who's corpus? Heathen text in general? Icelandic? Anglo-Saxon?.

I think you are conflating two issues here; the surviving corpus with the practice of modern Heathenry.

Surviving corpus=the sum total of all surviving material that deals with an aspect of Germanic mythology, history and culture.

I don't like confusion which is why I leave sources, references and definitions but I would have thought that surviving corpus was pretty self explanatory, particularly when we are discussing a particular issue. Considering I leave you references so you can read the texts I'm not sure I can alleviate you confusion any more than I'm already trying to.

True, Loki doesn't appear anywhere in your specific texts and myths (Anglo-Saxon), but he is quite attested as being among the Aesir as equal - and blood brother to Odin - in Icelandic texts. He is named among Odin and Hœnir in the Reginsmál, as well as quite possibly in the Völuspá as creating mankind with them. (by the name Lóðurr, according to some scholars.)

He does actually appear in Anglo-Saxon England:
The Loki stone in Kirby Stephen and
The Gosforth Cross

Where is he attested as being an equal? Just because a character appears in mythology does not make them a god. He is not blood brother to Odin in the sense of related to or belonging to the Aesir, only Snorri says that Odin made him blood brother. Odin's action, which is not attested elsewhere, did not make Loki a god or prevent the Aesir from outlawing him and chaining him to a rock. Not even Snorri lists him among the gods.

Loki was never worshiped. In the academic world, there's little agreement on anything. On this point, however, there is consensus. He may be venerated today by fanboys & fangirls, but this is a new & artificial phenomenon.

"Everyone agrees that there was never any cult of Loki." - John Lindow

"There is no evidence of [Loki's] worship among men." - H.R. Ellis Davidson

"[Loki] had no discernable place in pagan religion." - Christopher Abram

"There is nothing to suggest that Loki was ever worshipped." - E.O.G. Turville-Petre

"There was no cult of Loki, and place-names based on his name are equally unknown." - Rudolf Simek

"Snorri's effort to produce a list of thirteen Æsir, of whom one (Loki) was to prove a traitor, looks suspiciously like an attempt to align the Æsir with the disciples of Christ." - Andy Orchard

Posted here:
Starting the New Year off with a bang... aka Loki - The Gods - Asatru Lore

As for his historical worship, this has some evidence. The Snaptun stone is a hearthstone with the carving of a face that has been identified as Loki; through the scarred lips which reference the sons of Ivaldi sewing his lips shut as told in the Skáldskaparmál. The function of the stone suggest a tie between Loki and forging. There was also an archeological find of a Loki pendant in a boat burial in Bitterstad, Norway. Pendants aren't usually made for gods that aren't worshiped.

You are making an assumption and a leap of logic.The Snaptun stone may or may not be Loki, if it is that is support for the myth, not for Loki being considered a god or having been worshipped. Bracteates displayed a variety of iconography, they may be linked to myths and charms, be amulets, imitations of imperial coins, sign of the wealth of the wearer and/or decorative.

Give me a link that suggests that bracteates were ritual objects, connected to the worship of specific gods.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I suggest we consider the latest inspiration of the Lutheran church of Sweden. Namely, that God has no gender. And it is therefore not correct to refer to God as /Him/Her.

Their issue is one unique to Monotheism, and such with a tilt of this deity being non-specific and all-encompassing. All well and fine, but for the problem that Christianity - Lutheranism included - holds "God" to be the god of Abraham, which is known to be Yahweh, who is known to be a male deity.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Thor dressed as a woman in Thrymskviða / Loki in dresses as a bridesmaid in Thrymskviða,

Thor and Loki disguised themselves. It was far from a situation of Thor saying "hey, I feel like wearing a dress" - as is seemed to be suggested - but exactly the situation of "Giants have Mjolnir, and they demand Freyja. Time to pretend like I'm Freyja and kick some giant a**."

Odin shaped shifted into a medicine woman for the rape of Rinda/r. Gesta Danorum, Book 3,

The Danish history? Okay. I mean, it's the same story that puts Asgard as being one in the same with Byzantium, but you know, whatever. However no, Odin did not shapeshift into a medicine woman. As is clearly stated in the Gesta Danorum,

"But still he did not falter in the fulfilment of his purpose; for trust in his divine majesty buoyed him up with confidence; so, assuming the garb of a maiden, this indefatigable journeyer repaired for the fourth time to the king, and, on being received by him, showed himself assiduous and even forward. Most people believed him to be a woman, as he was dressed almost in female attire."

Getting picked on by Loki in the Lokasenna quite defeats the notion that this was "usual" for the gods.

Odin practices seidr which was considered ergi,

And also is (possibly) a gender role, not a gender. Also conflicted as you yourself mention that no sex is mentioned regarding the practice of seidr.

I didn't say common I said not unusual, I think that qualifies as not unusual.

"Not unusual" or, in plainer words, "usual". Defined as "that happens or is done most of the time or in most cases". Which a handful of instances (with a few possible instance and non-instances) is most certainly not.

And, what is your point????? Does that change the meaning of PIE *ghut? No.

It clarifies that 'ghut' - so far as can be told through reconstruction - refers to deities, rather than just anything invoked. It is a theological word. Deities are usually worshiped, thus it's not entirely incorrect to say that 'ghut' means "that which is worshiped".

I think you are conflating two issues here; the surviving corpus with the practice of modern Heathenry.

No, my confusion - not really - lies with a contradiction in your statements. One the one hand you persistently demand "who's Heathenry," as though we're a fractured modge-podge of cultures that share nothing in common and are totally different. But then you say "our corpus," putting all Germanic texts and stories under one word. The only confusion of mine that is present is that, considering the later, you would be unclear as to how there could be a Modern Heathen global community.

He does actually appear in Anglo-Saxon England:
The Loki stone in Kirby Stephen and
The Gosforth Cross

Which isn't Anglo-Saxon mythology. It also doesn't show any evidence for Loki not being considered a god; there are many mentions through the Eddas alone that number him among the aesir, and more in other Norse texts that you've referenced that name him as a god.

Where is he attested as being an equal? ... He is not blood brother to Odin in the sense of related to or belonging to the Aesir, only Snorri says that Odin made him blood brother.

"Remember, Othin, | in olden days
That we both our blood have mixed;
Then didst thou promise | no ale to pour,
Unless it were brought for us both." ~Lokasenna s.9, The Poetic Edda

Not even Snorri lists him among the gods.

"Then the Æsir came in to their banquet, and in the high-seats sat them down those twelve Æsir who were appointed to be judges; these were their names: Thor, Njördr, Freyr, Týr, Heimdallr, Bragi, Vídarr, Váli, Ullr, Hœnir, Forseti, Loki; and in like manner the Ásynjur: Frigg, Freyja, Gefjun, Idunn, Gerdr, Sigyn, Fulla, Nanna." ~Skáldskaparmál 1

"He began the story at the point where three of the Æsir, Odin and Loki and Hœnir" ~Skáldskaparmál 1

"Ægir went to Ásgard to a feast, but when he was ready to return home, he invited Odin and all the Æsir to visit him in three months' time. First came Odin and Njördr, Freyr, Týr, Bragi, Vídarr, Loki;" ~Skáldskaparmál 33

"Then said Thridi: 'Odin is highest and eldest of the Æsir: he rules all things, and mighty as are the other gods, they all serve him as children obey a father. Frigg is his wife, and she knows all the fates of men, though she speaks no prophecy,--as is said here, when Odin himself spake with him of the Æsir whom men call Loki." ~Gylfaginning 22

""Also numbered among the Æsir is he whom some call the mischief-monger of the Æsir, and the first father of falsehoods, and blemish of all gods and men: he is named Loki or Loptr, son of Fárbauti the giant; his mother was Laufey or Nál; his brothers are Býleistr and Helblindi." ~Gylfaginning 33

"Then spake Thridi: "Now it is evident that he is resolved to know this matter, though it seem not to us a pleasant thing to tell. This is the beginning of this tale: Öku-Thor drove forth with his he-goats and chariot, and with him that Ás called Loki" ~Gylfaginning 44 (ás is the singular of æsir; meaning "god")

Loki is listed among and as one of the gods quite often.

Loki was never worshiped.

Have you a time machine? This is the only way you would know. Also relegating those who worship Loki today to "fanboys/girls", or their worship as "artificial" is incredibly short-sighted and disrespectful.

You are making an assumption and a leap of logic. The Snaptun stone may or may not be Loki,

Ah, but the stones in England are definitely him, yes? Name me another figure in Norse myth who had his lips sewn shut.

Give me a link that suggests that bracteates were ritual objects, connected to the worship of specific gods.

The pendant that was found was not a bracteate. It is silver, adorned with garnets as known from fragments of the stone found in the right eye socket.

 

[Hildeburh]

Thor and Loki disguised themselves. It was far from a situation of Thor saying "hey, I feel like wearing a dress" - as is seemed to be suggested - but exactly the situation of "Giants have Mjolnir, and they demand Freyja. Time to pretend like I'm Freyja and kick some giant a**."


The Danish history? Okay. I mean, it's the same story that puts Asgard as being one in the same with Byzantium, but you know, whatever. However no, Odin did not shapeshift into a medicine woman. As is clearly stated in the Gesta Danorum,

"But still he did not falter in the fulfilment of his purpose; for trust in his divine majesty buoyed him up with confidence; so, assuming the garb of a maiden, this indefatigable journeyer repaired for the fourth time to the king, and, on being received by him, showed himself assiduous and even forward. Most people believed him to be a woman, as he was dressed almost in female attire."

Getting picked on by Loki in the Lokasenna quite defeats the notion that this was "usual" for the gods.


And also is (possibly) a gender role, not a gender. Also conflicted as you yourself mention that no sex is mentioned regarding the practice of seidr.


"Not unusual" or, in plainer words, "usual". Defined as "that happens or is done most of the time or in most cases". Which a handful of instances (with a few possible instance and non-instances) is most certainly not.

Dude, you still don't get it, the gods dont care if they transgress gender boundaries, rape, kill and break oaths. That's why there are multiple examples in the myths, the gods will do anything it takes to acheive their goals, including commiting ergi. Stop trying to defend their actions, find alternate reasons their behavior and denegrate EVERY source we have that doesn't agree with your POV. The gods are the gods they will behave as they will, they simply aren't bound by human standards.

If you want an all seeing all caring omnipotent god be a Christian.

It clarifies that 'ghut' - so far as can be told through reconstruction - refers to deities, rather than just anything invoked. It is a theological word. Deities are usually worshiped, thus it's not entirely incorrect to say that 'ghut' means "that which is worshiped".

Here's is the link........again! Argue with them.

god | Origin and meaning of god by Online Etymology Dictionary

No, my confusion - not really - lies with a contradiction in your statements. One the one hand you persistently demand "who's Heathenry," as though we're a fractured modge-podge of cultures that share nothing in common and are totally different. But then you say "our corpus," putting all Germanic texts and stories under one word. The only confusion of mine that is present is that, considering the later, you would be unclear as to how there could be a Modern Heathen global community.

Not a fractured hodge podge, regionally based belief systems that shared some commonalities, not enough to stop them from warring with each other for land, wealth and slaves.

Oh! Your talking about modern Heathenry, well that would be the same answer as above, regionally based belief systems that share some commonalities. How can there be a Modern Global Heathen community? There isn't, that's why there are so many different names for our beliefs, heathenry is an umbrella term, we aren't Christians we don't share a holy book.

Germanic is a linguistic group, of course the surviving corpus is grouped together.

Which isn't Anglo-Saxon mythology. It also doesn't show any evidence for Loki not being considered a god; there are many mentions through the Eddas alone that number him among the aesir, and more in other Norse texts that you've referenced that name him as a god.

"Remember, Othin, | in olden days
That we both our blood have mixed;
Then didst thou promise | no ale to pour,
Unless it were brought for us both." ~Lokasenna s.9, The Poetic Edda.

"Then the Æsir came in to their banquet, and in the high-seats sat them down those twelve Æsir who were appointed to be judges; these were their names: Thor, Njördr, Freyr, Týr, Heimdallr, Bragi, Vídarr, Váli, Ullr, Hœnir, Forseti, Loki; and in like manner the Ásynjur: Frigg, Freyja, Gefjun, Idunn, Gerdr, Sigyn, Fulla, Nanna." ~Skáldskaparmál 1

"He began the story at the point where three of the Æsir, Odin and Loki and Hœnir" ~Skáldskaparmál 1

"Ægir went to Ásgard to a feast, but when he was ready to return home, he invited Odin and all the Æsir to visit him in three months' time. First came Odin and Njördr, Freyr, Týr, Bragi, Vídarr, Loki;" ~Skáldskaparmál 33

"Then said Thridi: 'Odin is highest and eldest of the Æsir: he rules all things, and mighty as are the other gods, they all serve him as children obey a father. Frigg is his wife, and she knows all the fates of men, though she speaks no prophecy,--as is said here, when Odin himself spake with him of the Æsir whom men call Loki." ~Gylfaginning 22

""Also numbered among the Æsir is he whom some call the mischief-monger of the Æsir, and the first father of falsehoods, and blemish of all gods and men: he is named Loki or Loptr, son of Fárbauti the giant; his mother was Laufey or Nál; his brothers are Býleistr and Helblindi." ~Gylfaginning 33

"Then spake Thridi: "Now it is evident that he is resolved to know this matter, though it seem not to us a pleasant thing to tell. This is the beginning of this tale: Öku-Thor drove forth with his he-goats and chariot, and with him that Ás called Loki" ~Gylfaginning 44 (ás is the singular of æsir; meaning "god")

Loki is listed among and as one of the gods quite often.

He may well be that doesn't make him one. Reread my last post, send a letter to the academics referenced and argue your point with them..

Have you a time machine? This is the only way you would know. Also relegating those who worship Loki today to "fanboys/girls", or their worship as "artificial" is incredibly short-sighted and disrespectful.

No I have books and I can read.

How dare you accuse me of using such inflammatory language, show me one post where I have used any disrespectful slurs against other Heathens.

Your language is appalling, add this to Armchair Heathen, Elitist, Brownie Points, Roleplaying. Seriously can't you write a post without derogatory epithets.

Ah, but the stones in England are definitely him, yes? Name me another figure in Norse myth who had his lips sewn shut.

And what is the point of that comment? Since I pointed out the sources to you and told you it was most likely Loki.

IT SUPPORTS THE MYTH NOT IT DOES NOT PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR LOKI BEING A GOD OR FOR THERE BEING A CULT DEDICATED TO HIM.

Seriously, I gave you multiple references, posted by other Heathens and academics, don't you think they may have considered anything and any source you might come up with. Read them.

The pendant that was found was not a bracteate. It is silver, adorned with garnets as known from fragments of the stone found in the right eye socket.

Give me a link, cause I most certainly am not going to take your word for it

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Dude, you still don't get it, the gods dont care if they transgress gender boundaries, rape, kill and break oaths.

Evidently they do, if such is grounds for mocking one another, holding one another accountable, and even punishing such actions. (of which there are multiple examples in the myths.)

And wasn't it you who told me that Heathenry has no prophets, and to stop "speaking for the gods"? This is very much the crow calling the raven black.

the gods will do anything it takes to acheive their goals,

Except giving one of their own in marriage as was counseled upon and agreed to.

If you want an all seeing all caring omnipotent god be a Christian.

No body said anything about all caring. For all-seeing you're quite forgetting the Norns, Frigga, and Hliðskjálf. But "go be Christian". A surer indication was never spoken that conversation is reaching the end.

Oh! Your talking about modern Heathenry, well that would be the same answer as above, regionally based belief systems that share some commonalities. How can there be a Modern Global Heathen community? There isn't, that's why there are so many different names for our beliefs, heathenry is an umbrella term, we aren't Christians we don't share a holy book.

Apparently we do, because you keep saying "our corpus".

He may well be that doesn't make him one. Reread my last post,

You quite clearly said that "Not even Snorri lists him among the gods." There were given to you several instances in where yes, Loki most certainly was named among the gods. And that's just ridiculous logic: "he's listed among the gods in places and names of honor and respect, but that doesn't make him a god."

Preposterous.

No I have books and I can read.

You do not have a time machine. So then you cannot know for sure. Yet even then it's irrelevant, because we don't live in the year 900, we live in the modern age. And just as Tyr was once worshiped as Chieftain of the Aesir before Odin, today Loki is worshiped.

How dare you accuse me of using such inflammatory language, show me one post where I have used any disrespectful slurs against other Heathens.

Oh, I dare. In your own words:

Loki was never worshiped. In the academic world, there's little agreement on anything. On this point, however, there is consensus. He may be venerated today by fanboys & fangirls, but this is a new & artificial phenomenon.

You here relegated Loki worshipers to "fanboys & fangirls," and deemed their worship "artificial" - something that you have little to no right to say.

And what is the point of that comment? Since I pointed out the sources to you and told you it was most likely Loki.

Yes, you said the Snaptun stone "may or may not" be Loki, and you also said that "Loki does actually appear in Anglo-Saxon England." And yet the Snaptun stone is identified as Loki, whereas the Kirkby Stephen stone (featuring a bound, horned figure) is sometimes theorized to be Loki, and the lower section of the Gosforth Cross is interpreted as Sigyn soothing Loki, based on several figures being interpreted as Norse figures.

Which even if the Gosforth cross authentically shows Loki, doesn't contradict what I said that Loki is absent from Anglo-Saxon cultural myth.

Give me a link, cause I most certainly am not going to take your word for it

A link was given to you in Post #92 (and again there; you're welcome). It's not on me if you failed to read it.

 

[Hildeburh]

Yes it was, elsewise it would not have been treated as an oddity. Loki would not have barbed Odin as being "unmanly", (and Odin re-barbing Loki as such) and there would have been more than a handful of instances where gender boundaries were crossed. For as much grief as is given injecting modern views into "the old ways," such is very much viewing the past through modern eyes.

Which, as I've said before and elsewhere, we have no choice but to. What we do have a choice with is making claims about the past based on our views and morals today. Regarding gender, it was the same in terminology as biological sex (in reference to humans) until 1977. "Sex" was used first in the 15th Century, but as it became more commonly associated with the act of reproduction, "gender" became the prudishly preferred term in regards to male and female.

Back to the gods and mythology, gender roles being crossed may have example, and might have happened from time to time, but I sincerely doubt that it was either common or usual.


Well, in regards to theology invoking is defined as "to make a request for help".


So far as can be told, yes. I did even mention that the Old German 'got' was a neutral term meaning "deity" in general. And yet, such gendered words did exist. For example, the words ásur (m) and ásynja (f). Or even going so far back as the Canaanite 'el and 'elat. "Goddess" as a word itself may have appeared in the 1300's, but words for male and female deities have existed long before then.


It would be possible, but we can't say if it would have been considered. Given that the Germanic peoples had no qualms about naming their deities, it would be more practically to assume that the phrase in question would be worded "Frigg the mother is a god".


Okay I'm confused. You've criticized me constantly for referring to Heathenry world-wide, drilling with "who's Heathenry?" and arguing that there's not a global community or "Heathen world-view". So I'm going to ask here; who's corpus? Heathen text in general? Icelandic? Anglo-Saxon?

True, Loki doesn't appear anywhere in your specific texts and myths (Anglo-Saxon), but he is quite attested as being among the Aesir as equal - and blood brother to Odin - in Icelandic texts. He is named among Odin and Hœnir in the Reginsmál, as well as quite possibly in the Völuspá as creating mankind with them. (by the name Lóðurr, according to some scholars.)

As for his historical worship, this has some evidence. The Snaptun stone is a hearthstone with the carving of a face that has been identified as Loki; through the scarred lips which reference the sons of Ivaldi sewing his lips shut as told in the Skáldskaparmál. The function of the stone suggest a tie between Loki and forging. There was also an archeological find of a Loki pendant in a boat burial in Bitterstad, Norway. Pendants aren't usually made for gods that aren't worshiped.


Two problems arise. Firstly, the final three lines of that stanza are regarded as spurious and later additions to the text. Secondly, to taunt a man of "bearing babes" was not uncommon in such flyting contests, it doesn't mean it's a literal happening. It's like today saying "I know who wears the pants in that family," or other such ways calling to question a man's "manliness". This especially is also damning to the notion that gender lines being crossed was seen as normal or acceptable.

Dude, your link in your previous post doesn't work for me I would have read. It goes to a blank page.

As for the rest of your post I've already said I get it your eclectic and you don't want to read.