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God defined by what He did than by His features.

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Pachomius, May 18, 2020.

  1. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    Even if that were true, all it would prove is that some kind of creative force must have existed at some point. You can't say anything else about that force, including whether it still exists.

    If you want to apply the label "God" to that concept you can, though I feel it's somewhat misleading given all the different concepts the label has already been applied to and can only lead to confusion since people will think you're presuming other God-like characteristics of your proposed creative force.

    Which leads to the question; "So what?" Even if this was a valid conclusion as you've written it, there isn't anything rational we can do in response.
     
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  2. Pachomius

    Pachomius Member

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    Dear Brickjectivity, please don't go far and wide, just concentrate on God exists or not, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

    I will repeat myself:

    Please, everyone, don't give any attention to any God Who is not in concept the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

    Why? Simple: because such a God Who is not in concept the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning is not worth any attention from man; for example, that God is the author of morality whatever, but not the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.
    Please, no need to bring in your information about invisibility of God, Western Philosophy, etc.

    We can decide God exists or not, just concentrating on God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


     
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  3. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    No, because you haven't told me the difference between "the concept of causality" and "causality", plus why would "the concept of causality only be in your mind and mine"?

    If by that weird turn of phrase you mean that you can use your mind to find causal chains, then yes, this is indeed possible.

    If by that other strange turn of phrase you are attempting to say that both of us are capable of identifying causal chains thanks to an internalised definition of causality built in our intellectual process, in other words built in our brain. Then I would say this is largely true though we might make assesment error (in other word, to make an analogy, we can see stuff, but sometime we see wrong).

    If I undertand your demand correctly, you want me to present you with an example of a causal chain that I have observed. In tht case, I'll present the following chain: my toes hurt because I smacked them against my dining table. Does it satisfy you?

    PS: How does all of this adress my critique of your OP, that is that the argument from first cause commits the fallacy is of stolen concept and must be rejected?
     
  4. Pachomius

    Pachomius Member

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    Dear HonestJoe, if in re God exists or not, some folks don't care to talk about God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, then they should first present their concept of God - in less than 20 words.

    Give their concept of God, then I will decide whether their God is worth my attention.


     
  5. Pachomius

    Pachomius Member

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    Dear epronovost, is there something you want me to agree with you on?

    Just one thing only, and then another thing in another post; otherwise you just want to think that saying so many things give you the appearance of what, depth?

    My point is that with the concept in our mind of causality, then we can both go forward to the world outside our mind, to search for evidence leading us to the existence of an entity that corresponds to the concept of God, in concept namely as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

    Suppose you produce your concept of God in less than 20 words, okay?
     
  6. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    What does that have to do with your proposed proof for the existence of some kind of creative force? Why are you so determined to use the word "God" for it when it demonstrably causes all this unnecessary confusion and conflict? You could just as easily present your proposed proof without all the baggage of the "God" label and thus allow all the focus to be on the validity of that proposal.

    Unless that isn't really what you want of course. You did, after all, ignore all of my comments about that and continued to just talk about "God". :cool:
     
  7. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Can you explain that? Isn't searching for evidence to support your ideas, still a function of the mind? Isn't that all part of creating a basis for belief in God using logic and reason? When a scientist looks for evidence to support a hypothesis, isn't that still all using the logical reasoning mind?

    Do you have some other meaning to "go outside my mind", such as using faith? Faith goes beyond the mind, as that is a function of the heart. But searching for proofs of an idea or concept does not. That's still using logic and reason.

    How do you know that? On what basis other than reasoning it deductively do you conclude that? Do you have some basis other than conceptual and logical arguments, such as the idea of causality?
     
  8. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    I'm not trying to derail your thread. I think they may be mutually exclusive. In other words God as a moral being could exclude God as the creator of the physical universe, since it contains immorality. There is a philosophy which attempts to bridge this seeming incompatibility between the two concepts. Some philosophers view our universe as a contraction of God, like a negative space within God. They are called 'Kabbalists'. They have a hybrid view of this and think of God as the physical creator who creates our space through absence or partial absence -- or something like that. I'm not entirely clear on exactly how they describe it. Anyways I think that the problem of evil in the world throws an obstacle in the way of viewing God as a physical creator of the universe. Then again if God is partially evil I guess I could see it potentially.
     
  9. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    So then the features/attributes of God, are they otherwise unknown?

    For example in the OP title you refer to God as a he. Is gender a known feature of God? Or is this just a feature of a pronoun dependent language?

    Would it be appropriate to say "whatever" it was that caused the universe to exist is God? Or does God have additional features that ought to be accepted with that?
     
  10. Pachomius

    Pachomius Member

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    Dear HonestJoe, read the OP and also the title of the thread.

    And tell me what is wrong with my concept of God, namely, God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

    My concept as a concept. does it contain some intrinsic contradictory composition?


     
  11. Pachomius

    Pachomius Member

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    Dear Windwalker, going outside the mind means no longer thinking inside your mind, but with the concepts and principles and conclusion you hold inside your mind, you go forth into the world outside, to search for evidence of an entity corresponding to the concept in your mind of God, namely, in concept God is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

    So, now you are outside and searching for evidence, and what do you find?

    You find humans, you find the universe, and you find everything with a beginning, there: these are all evidence to the existence of God, as you hold in your mind, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

    But you will say you don't see Him.

    Of course not, because He is everywhere in existence; otherwise how can He be in charge of everything in the world outside our mind, starting with your nose not falling of uncertainly, to the sub-atomic particles and the forces and the laws and everything else, that makes up all existence that is not Himself, but His creation.



     
  12. Pachomius

    Pachomius Member

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    Why are you so determined to use the word "God" for it when it demonstrably causes all this unnecessary confusion and conflict. - HonestJoe
    You are exaggerating and betraying your ignorance.

    God is the name man who knows God exists - calls Him, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

    Have you ever come to this line in a most ancient text? Namely:

    In the beginning God made heaven and earth.



     
  13. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the concept in itself. That's all it is though. I disagree that there is any reason to assert that such a thing ever existed, still exists now or has anything to do with any of the countless god concepts throughout human history (including the specific one you're thinking of even if you're not admitting it).
     
  14. Pachomius

    Pachomius Member

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    Dear posters to this thread, please just give your relevant comment to my OP, by reacting to just only one of the numbered lines in the quote below.

    I seem to notice that your posts are irrelevant, but of service to your curriculum vitae, in your internal self aggrandizement.

    And limit your words to less than 50, that will make you think intelligently, honestly, and of profit to folks, who do care to read something useful to their enhanced knowledge.

    Otherwise they will, starting with yours truly, take to the tl;dr path.

     
  15. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    No, no. These are still you using your reasoning mind to search for answers to satistify your reasoning mind. You are describing oberservations and considerations of what you see. That is using the reasoning mind.

    Again, this is not Faith.

    I see God everywhere. But I don't see God using reason. I see through Love. That's beyond logic.

    But tell me where you actually see this? Describe where and how you see this? I don't want to hear you reason how it must be there logically. I want to hear experience. Not logic.
     
  16. Pachomius

    Pachomius Member

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    Dear posters, on the one hand I am happy for your contributions to the thread.

    On the other hand, as the author I have the duty to make you attend to the thread, instead of bringing in alien matters, to the disintegration of the thread.

    So, please give focus to my request, repeated in the quote below.


     
  17. Pachomius

    Pachomius Member

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    Here is an example of attending to the thread, by choosing one of the numbered lines to react to - in less than 50 words

    Here it goes:

    I choose to react to your No. 8 line, what is your meaning in the following italicized word, ultimately?


    8. That is the only ultimately valid explanation for the existence of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.​


     
  18. Pachomius

    Pachomius Member

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    Dear epronovost, you see that I am talking about the realm of thought which is in our mind, and the realm of the reality world which is outside our mind.

    My concept of God as concept is in my mind, and it is in your mind when you read it, and it gets to be in your mind.

    Now, man and the universe and everything with a beginning as reality entities, they are outside our mind, and independent of our mind.

    In all the time when there was no man yet, there was no mind for the concept of God to be in the mind of man.

    But now that you and I are existing, we have a mind which is a location for concepts, or generally, thoughts to be in.

    Just pick one thing only in this post, and give me your reaction.

    Please do not give comments to segment to segment to segment... of my whole post.

    So that we will systematically step by step resolve the issue of God exists or not, or whatever preliminary issues you care to go into, but please: one by one.


     
  19. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    TL;DR

    Keep it under 10 words or less. Maybe 5 words for you. :)
     
  20. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Your mind is in the real world dear Pachomius. It's not in an alternate dimension or anything like that. Conceptually, you can see it as two different worlds for practical reasons, but your mind is in the real world.

    Dear Pachomius, while I'm indeed a teacher, I'm not Professor X. I do not read thoughts. You cannot transmit your thoughts straight into my head. No one can. You can try to transmit your ideas through various form of communication, but that's about it. Your level of success will be mitigated by a host of factors.

    As for your last point, I would agree that before human developped the concept of God there is no evidence that such a concept existed elsewhere in the observable universe.

    PS: this still doesn't adress the question that your argument for the existence of God is fallacious since it commits a stolen concept fallacy.
     
    #40 epronovost, May 20, 2020
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
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