God Debate

[pandamonk]

it is foolish to say that god does not exist for it has not been proven either way.

are you really sure it hasn't been proven? I suggest reading the impossibilty of god. It is also foolish to say God does exist for it, supposedly, has not been proven either way(although i disagree).

a good example of this would be for me to say to you that a u.f.o. landed in my driveway and i invited the alliens into my home and we had a intresting chat. i can't prove it did happen with out a picture or a tape of the conversation and you couldn't prove it didn't. but you would still have to be open to the idea that perhaps it did.

god example, but lets say i have friend, george, the omnipotent invisible china teapot that circles the son, yet is omnipresent and transendent. He is omnibenevolent, yet commands war and suffering and is the creater. he is perfect in every way, and still has needs and wants. to be continued.....

 

[pandamonk]

"good example, but lets say i have friend, george, the omnipotent invisible china teapot that circles the sun, yet is omnipresent and transcendent. He is omnibenevolent, yet commands war and suffering and is the creator. he is perfect in every way, and still has needs and wants. to be continued....."

George is omniscient and has free will, even though he knows every act he will do in the future, which therefore makes his acts predestined. George is immutable(unchanging) yet is the creator of the universe which means he must of at one time had an intention to create the universe and now does not have that intention as he has created it. George is personal yet is nonphysical even though a person(personal being)is physical. He is all-loving yet immutable yet an immutable being cannot be affected by events and to be loving at all it must be possible to be affected by events. And finally he is all-just and yet all-merciful (An all-just judge treats an offender exactly as they deserve yet an all-merciful judge treats an offender better than they deserve) even though it is impossible to treat and offender as they deserve and better than they deserve at the same time.

This seems quite foolish does it not yet all the attributes of my friend george are the, well known, attributes of a god.

 

[chuck010342]

not the information you're meaning. Physics is the type of science that deals with that type of question. Physics is not sumthing you can find in things. The "things" may have parts in which physics can explain but the parts are not "physics" lol

your right I Got on the wrong track. I'm a little confused.

 

[pandamonk]

your right I Got on the wrong track. I'm a little confused.

why confussed?anyone care to carry on the god discussion?

 

[Halcyon]

are you really sure it hasn't been proven? I suggest reading the impossibilty of god. It is also foolish to say God does exist for it, supposedly, has not been proven either way(although i disagree).

Never heard of 'the impossibility of God', could you possibly sum it up in a brief paragraph?

Personally, i think it is impossible to prove or disprove the existance of a deity. Saying with absolute certainty that God doesn't exist is impossible, its like saying that T.Rex had blue eyes, its possible, but there's no evidence for or against it.

 

[pandamonk]

Never heard of 'the impossibility of God', could you possibly sum it up in a brief paragraph?

'the impossibility of God' a book, which proves that God cannot exist, basically. It takes every attribute of God and attempts to prove each are impossible, incoherent, or inconsistent in combination with the other attributes.
God attributes include: omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, He is perfect, immutable, transcendent, nonphysical, personal, free, all-loving, all just, all-merciful and the creator of the universe.
The book also looks at religious doctrine and shows it to be inconsistent etc.

Personally, i think it is impossible to prove or disprove the existance of a deity. Saying with absolute certainty that God doesn't exist is impossible, its like saying that T.Rex had blue eyes, its possible, but there's no evidence for or against it.

It may be impossible to prove that a being doesn't exist which may be considered creator/ruler of the universe. But it is relatively simple to prove that "God" does not and cannot exist.

 

[Halcyon]

'the impossibility of God' a book, which proves that God cannot exist, basically. It takes every attribute of God and attempts to prove each are impossible, incoherent, or inconsistent in combination with the other attributes.
God attributes include: omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, He is perfect, immutable, transcendent, nonphysical, personal, free, all-loving, all just, all-merciful and the creator of the universe.
The book also looks at religious doctrine and shows it to be inconsistent etc.
It may be impossible to prove that a being doesn't exist which may be considered creator/ruler of the universe. But it is relatively simple to prove that "God" does not and cannot exist.

Oh right, this is about YHWH - should really have read the thread starting post, lol.
Unfortunately the aspects you mention have been attributed to YHWH by mankind, doesn't necessarily mean He is actually like that.

 

[pandamonk]

Oh right, this is about YHWH - should really have read the thread starting post, lol.
Unfortunately the aspects you mention have been attributed to YHWH by mankind, doesn't necessarily mean He is actually like that.

All the attributes are, at least hinted, in the bible. The name "God" has been give by mankind with all the aspects i mentioned being the definition of the word "god". So you're very welcome to call who you believe is your ruler/creator/whatever what you like other than what he isn't eg God, Mushroom , whatever. I'm not trying to debate over who you consider your creator. I'm trying to debate over the existence of God.

 

[Halcyon]

All the attributes are, at least hinted, in the bible. The name "God" has been give by mankind with all the aspects i mentioned being the definition of the word "god". So you're very welcome to call who you believe is your ruler/creator/whatever what you like other than what he isn't eg God, Mushroom , whatever. I'm not trying to debate over who you consider your creator. I'm trying to debate over the existence of God.

My creator? I don't believe YHWH is my creator, but this thread is about the christian version of God - YHWH, you even say that in the OP. Thus this can only be about the existance of that particular God.

My God isn't bound by the limiting factors you mentioned, but this thread is not about my God.

 

[pandamonk]

My creator? I don't believe YHWH is my creator, but this thread is about the christian version of God - YHWH, you even say that in the OP. Thus this can only be about the existance of that particular God.

My God isn't bound by the limiting factors you mentioned, but this thread is not about my God.

i have never, to my knowledge, mentioned YHWH in this debate. This debate is about the existence of any monotheistic God. Your God to be considered a god has to be bound by the factors i mentioned, if not it cannot be considered a god. So call it what you like, apart from what it isn't eg. God, pancake, etc?

 

[Halcyon]

i have never, to my knowledge, mentioned YHWH in this debate. This debate is about the existence of any monotheistic God. Your God to be considered a god has to be bound by the factors i mentioned, if not it cannot be considered a god. So call it what you like, apart from what it isn't eg. God, pancake, etc?

We'll see.

ok the universe is too complicated, according to most christians, not to have a creator so must have been designed and build by god.

This sentence implies the thread is about the christian God - YHWH.

Your God to be considered a god has to be bound by the factors i mentioned, if not it cannot be considered a god.

Lol, according to whom?

Omnipotence(all powerful) i believe is impossible

reason: can god or any other, supposedly, omnipotent being make 2 magnets that are too powerful for god/that being to separate. if yes that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot separate the magnets, if no that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot make the magnets?

You logic does not apply to my God. If my God created such magnets, then those magnets would be an aspect of God, It could then take on physical form and not be able to separate them - but then the magnets could always separate themselves.

omniscience (all knowing) i also believe is impossible if god is to have free will/act/think/do anything basically.

reason: if god was omniscient he would know everything he was going to do right from the start of his/its existence therefore anything it did do would be predetermined and even god a, supposedly, omnipotent being could not change what he knew would happen. therefore god could not have free will and is just, basically, acting with no thought etc. and if god knew everything what is the point of praying? he knows what you're going to say.

My god does not follow a single timeline with discreet steps, It is time. It is every possibility imaginable. Oh, and i don't pray to the one God, It does not listen.

originator and ruler of the universe:

ok the universe is too complicated, according to most christians, not to have a creator so must have been designed and build by god. But if god designed and built the universe does that also not make him/it too complicated not to have a creator so who created him/it? a super god? but would it/him not be too complicated, so who created him/it? a superdooper god? well who....you know where this is going. So is it not easier to say the universe was not designed or created? and maybe just accept the big bang theory or something?

This is what basically makes this a thread about the existance of YHWH. My God is the universe, yet the universe is only one of many, and each is but a tiny emanation from the One.

Your God to be considered a god has to be bound by the factors i mentioned, if not it cannot be considered a god.

These are rules that you seem to have applied to God. You can say my God is not a God because It does not fit with your preconceived idea of what God is, but you will be wrong.

 

[chuck010342]

why confussed?anyone care to carry on the god discussion?

I would love to get back to it. I got off track sorry

the question comes down to is

Did Dna evolve over millions of years or was it created by God?

 

[pandamonk]

We'll see.

This sentence implies the thread is about the christian God - YHWH.

ok yeah sorry, i may of been talking about the christian god at that point in this debate, if you look you will probably see i was talking to a christian at the time so chose to discuss their god(i ain't sure though i haven't check this, so i may be wrong)

Lol, according to whom?

well me, philosophers, theologians etc

You logic does not apply to my God. If my God created such magnets, then those magnets would be an aspect of God, It could then take on physical form and not be able to separate them - but then the magnets could always separate themselves.

the magnet argument has already been shown to be irrelevant, by Tawn, which i have accepted. I have given a lot more arguments, if you would care to look. And I have a lot more up my sleeve

My god does not follow a single timeline with discreet steps, It is time. It is every possibility imaginable. Oh, and i don't pray to the one God, It does not listen.

Why bother believing in God if you know it does not listen. Are you saying that your god sees all time at once?

This is what basically makes this a thread about the existance of YHWH. My God is the universe, yet the universe is only one of many, and each is but a tiny emanation from the One.

where are these "other" universes? show me sufficient proof or else what you're saying does not have any weight and cannot be accepted.

These are rules that you seem to have applied to God. You can say my God is not a God because It does not fit with your preconceived idea of what God is, but you will be wrong.

Hey my idea of what a god is, is widely accepted by theologians and philosophers. The attributes I gave of God is what defines a god. If the being you worship does not have the attributes i gave it cannot be considered a god. Also you have not defined your "god" so how can i possibly have any sort of debate with you about your "god".

 

[pandamonk]

I would love to get back to it. I got off track sorry

the question comes down to is

Did Dna evolve over millions of years or was it created by God?

well ok but the first question that needs to be fully answered before we can even consider that question is "does God exist?" or "can God exist?". Once these questions are answered with the answer "yes"+sufficient proof then we can move to your question.

 

[chuck010342]

well ok but the first question that needs to be fully answered before we can even consider that question is "does God exist?" or "can God exist?". Once these questions are answered with the answer "yes"+sufficient proof then we can move to your question.

I am answering the question does God exsist. Yes he does exsist and I'm using creation science to prove it. There are three types of evidence to prove Gods exsistance. Historical, philosophical, and Scientific. I was focusing on the scientific aspects of it.

 

[pandamonk]

I am answering the question does God exsist. Yes he does exsist and I'm using creation science to prove it. There are three types of evidence to prove Gods exsistance. Historical, philosophical, and Scientific. I was focusing on the scientific aspects of it.

where is the scientific proof which shows the universe was created? btw you're in a loop, you say the universe was created by God so i say where's the proof and you say, basically, the universe is proof. It's like me saying "my friend George(I mentioned him earlier in the debate)created oranges" someone says "prove it" and I say "here is an orange, it is here, so it's existence means he created it and therefore means he exists."(Not a good argument). Ok so you've focused on one type of evidence, what happened to philosophical and historical. Scientific proof does no good in this type of argument because, basically, you cannot analyze and investigate something that does not exist. So what you're trying to prove through science has to first exist before you can test it. Firstly you must think logically to see if it is possible for such a being to exist looking at all the facts, having philosophical discussions, etc. only then will you know if it is possible and only then will you be able to test your theories. So leave out scientific proof just now, as we will get nowhere with it, and focus on the discussion, thinking logically, and look at historical facts. For one, the bible, if you trace back the story to the creation you'll find the earth is under 10,000 years old, when in fact historical and scientific evidence shows otherwise. (scientific is allowed in this case as we are not discussing the existence of something). Ok so we need to begin with the philosophical discussion, "does God exist", and we need to agree on what we mean by God. By God i mean the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, wholly good, perfect being who created the universe, if not this then i do not know what you are talking about, and it cannot be considered a god in a philosophical debate.

 

[chuck010342]

where is the scientific proof which shows the universe was created?

the second law of therodynamics. The amount of usable energy in the universe is winding down. If it is winding down it had to be wound up in the first place

btw you're in a loop, you say the universe was created by God so i say where's the proof and you say, basically, the universe is proof. It's like me saying "my friend George(I mentioned him earlier in the debate)created oranges" someone says "prove it" and I say "here is an orange, it is here, so it's existence means he created it and therefore means he exists."(Not a good argument).

yes I say the universe is created by God. The universe is very complex just look at the complexity of the cell. The George argument is very interesting. George is not an all knowing all powerful being is he? Now if George did create the oragne he should know all about the orange should he? He should be able to know its weight, height, the exact point of when it will turn sour and all of that. So george couldn't of created the orange because he doesn't know all about it.

Ok so you've focused on one type of evidence, what happened to philosophical and historical.

I was going to get to those.

Scientific proof does no good in this type of argument because, basically, you cannot analyze and investigate something that does not exist.

That is circular reasoning.

So what you're trying to prove through science has to first exist before you can test it.

yes

Firstly you must think logically to see if it is possible for such a being to exist looking at all the facts, having philosophical discussions, etc. only then will you know if it is possible and only then will you be able to test your theories. So leave out scientific proof just now, as we will get nowhere with it, and focus on the discussion, thinking logically, and look at historical facts.

okay we can come back to science later.

For one, the bible, if you trace back the story to the creation you'll find the earth is under 10,000 years old, when in fact historical and scientific evidence shows otherwise. (scientific is allowed in this case as we are not discussing the existence of something).

okay the burden of proof is on you now, show me the scientific evidence that says the earth is older then 10,000 years old.

Ok so we need to begin with the philosophical discussion, "does God exist", and we need to agree on what we mean by God. By God i mean the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, wholly good, perfect being who created the universe, if not this then i do not know what you are talking about, and it cannot be considered a god in a philosophical debate.

I agree with your definition of God.

 

[pandamonk]

the second law of therodynamics. The amount of usable energy in the universe is winding down. If it is winding down it had to be wound up in the first place

So by your reasoning, you're saying everything that exists needs to have be created? Then so must God. And so must the creator of God and so on. And if you say that God need not be created why not apply the same reasoning to the universe.

yes I say the universe is created by God. The universe is very complex just look at the complexity of the cell. The George argument is very interesting. George is not an all knowing all powerful being is he? Now if George did create the oragne he should know all about the orange should he? He should be able to know its weight, height, the exact point of when it will turn sour and all of that. So george couldn't of created the orange because he doesn't know all about it.

George is an all knowing all powerful china teapot that circles the sun and yet is omnipresent, along with many other things(if you look to earlier in this discussion you can read about the life of George, lol)He knows all about the orange. Also, the universe is too complex to not have been created, but if this is the case the creator is even more complex and so must also need to be created and the creator of the creator must also need to be created and so on.

That is circular reasoning.

yup

okay we can come back to science later.

good

okay the burden of proof is on you now, show me the scientific evidence that says the earth is older then 10,000 years old.

well carbon dating shows that dinosaur fossils are millions of years old. Also radiometric dating, which can be read about http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html and
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html#age

I agree with your definition of God.

yey! So if I can prove the attributes of God to be contradictory, can we agree that God does not and cannot exist?

 

[Sabio]

Pandamonk,

I know I'm going back to the beginning of this thread, but something you said early on caught my eye. You mentioned having cancer and the comments of some "religious" people.

First I would like to say that I'm praying for your complete and total healing, that you would be freed from this attack of Satan (cancer). Jesus gave His life not only for your salvation but that you might be freed from sickness and disease as well, His sacrfice for you was on so many levels:

From Isaiah 53

(His sacrifice for your mind and body)
"Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows"

(His sacrifice for your sins)
"He was pierced for our transgressions"

(His sacrifice for your moral problems)
"He was crushed for our iniquities"

(His sacrifice so that you could be at peace)
"The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him"

(His sacrifice for your sickness and disease)
"By His wounds we are healed"

God loves you so much that he did not withhold His own Son as a sacrifice so that you could have healing, peace, foregiveness, reconciliation with Him, and eternal life.

Pandamonk, You seem to be intelligent well beyond your years, continue to seek wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, these will lead you to God.

Blessings

Sabio

 

[pandamonk]

I know I'm going back to the beginning of this thread, but something you said early on caught my eye. You mentioned having cancer and the comments of some "religious" people.

First I would like to say that I'm praying for your complete and total healing, that you would be freed from this attack of Satan (cancer). Jesus gave His life not only for your salvation but that you might be freed from sickness and disease as well, His sacrfice for you was on so many levels:

Well I'm touched that you noticed and mentioned that you are praying for me. Unfortunately, or fortunately(however you see it) i won't be needing your prayers. The docs/surgeons/nurses/hospital staff did a great job and i am cured of my cancer(with a metal knee and big scar to show for it). I disagree with you that it was an attack from Satan(read my first and last posts from Can the Christian god be all moral, Or even at all moral?). I do not believe in both Satan and God, I believe i got the cancer due to cells in my body mutating(the scientific approach).

From Isaiah 53

(His sacrifice for your mind and body)
"Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows"

(His sacrifice for your sins)
"He was pierced for our transgressions"

(His sacrifice for your moral problems)
"He was crushed for our iniquities"

(His sacrifice so that you could be at peace)
"The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him"

(His sacrifice for your sickness and disease)
"By His wounds we are healed"

I also disbelieve the Bible so, I'm sorry that you took your time to find and post these quotes, but they have no affect on me. I'm sure you'll understand

God loves you so much that he did not withhold His own Son as a sacrifice so that you could have healing, peace, foregiveness, reconciliation with Him, and eternal life.

Pandamonk, You seem to be intelligent well beyond your years, continue to seek wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, these will lead you to God.

Blessings

Sabio

Thank you for appreciating my intelligence, I am not really as intelligent as I may seem(or maybe I'm just modest). I feel that from what i have read and know, i can never be lead to God(This may change if enough undeniable evidence is presented, but I believe that to be impossible)

Thanks for showing an interest in my posts

Lee(or pandamonk)