God Debate

[pandamonk]

This is aimed at believers in a god.

God

A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

the dictionary definition. so, basically, true

God is also meant to be all moral

but can God be any of those?

i don't think so.

Omnipotence(all powerful) i believe is impossible

reason: can god or any other, supposedly, omnipotent being make 2 magnets that are too powerful for god/that being to separate. if yes that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot separate the magnets, if no that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot make the magnets?

you may say that he/it can but we cannot understand how, as we are not omniscient like him/it. But should God not give you the answer? Maybe even he/it doesn't have them? But he must, he is omniscient. So why does he not give you them? It's like a leader of an army sending his troops into a war without any weapons, or any means of acquiring those weapons, how are they meant to win? They would obviously call on the leader for help, or just abandon the mission and give up what they were fighting for. If the leader chose not to help, like God has, then I'm sure basically all the troops would abandon it, the few that remain would certainly lose the war, and their lives. Maybe that leader never really existed and was only a rumour spread by a few men who wanted to cause chaos or were greatly mistaken in what they believed. Or maybe the leader was the one who wanted to cause chaos (sounds like someone else mentioned in the bible, does it not?). This shows that either God does not exist, and was made up by confused, mistaken, or evil men, or that it you are worshipping the completely wrong being (not all moral)

omniscience (all knowing) i also believe is impossible if god is to have free will/act/think/do anything basically.

reason: if god was omniscient he would know everything he was going to do right from the start of his/its existence therefore anything it did do would be predetermined and even god a, supposedly, omnipotent being could not change what he knew would happen. therefore god could not have free will and is just, basically, acting with no thought etc. and if god knew everything what is the point of praying? he knows what you're going to say.

originator and ruler of the universe:

ok the universe is too complicated, according to most christians, not to have a creator so must have been designed and build by god. But if god designed and built the universe does that also not make him/it too complicated not to have a creator so who created him/it? a super god? but would it/him not be too complicated, so who created him/it? a superdooper god? well who....you know where this is going. So is it not easier to say the universe was not designed or created? and maybe just accept the big bang theory or something?

just something to think about

 

[fromthe heart]

This is aimed at believers in a god.

God

A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

the dictionary definition. so, basically, true

God is also meant to be all moral

but can God be any of those?

i don't think so.

Omnipotence(all powerful) i believe is impossible

reason: can god or any other, supposedly, omnipotent being make 2 magnets that are too powerful for god/that being to separate. if yes that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot separate the magnets, if no that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot make the magnets?

you may say that he/it can but we cannot understand how, as we are not omniscient like him/it. But should God not give you the answer? Maybe even he/it doesn't have them? But he must, he is omniscient. So why does he not give you them? It's like a leader of an army sending his troops into a war without any weapons, or any means of acquiring those weapons, how are they meant to win? They would obviously call on the leader for help, or just abandon the mission and give up what they were fighting for. If the leader chose not to help, like God has, then I'm sure basically all the troops would abandon it, the few that remain would certainly lose the war, and their lives. Maybe that leader never really existed and was only a rumour spread by a few men who wanted to cause chaos or were greatly mistaken in what they believed. Or maybe the leader was the one who wanted to cause chaos (sounds like someone else mentioned in the bible, does it not?). This shows that either God does not exist, and was made up by confused, mistaken, or evil men, or that it you are worshipping the completely wrong being (not all moral)

omniscience (all knowing) i also believe is impossible if god is to have free will/act/think/do anything basically.

reason: if god was omniscient he would know everything he was going to do right from the start of his/its existence therefore anything it did do would be predetermined and even god a, supposedly, omnipotent being could not change what he knew would happen. therefore god could not have free will and is just, basically, acting with no thought etc. and if god knew everything what is the point of praying? he knows what you're going to say.

originator and ruler of the universe:

ok the universe is too complicated, according to most christians, not to have a creator so must have been designed and build by god. But if god designed and built the universe does that also not make him/it too complicated not to have a creator so who created him/it? a super god? but would it/him not be too complicated, so who created him/it? a superdooper god? well who....you know where this is going. So is it not easier to say the universe was not designed or created? and maybe just accept the big bang theory or something?

just something to think about

God,Jesus and the Holy Ghost are this and so much more...some are able to believe some as you are not...If you try to see God through human eyes then you don't understand just how powerful my God really is...to second guess Him would IMPO make YOU the ignorant one...God reveals things to we mere mortal humans as we grow in Him and are able to understand the workings of our creator.God had a plan when He created our world,He made nothing by mistake,humans can't see the BIG picture God sees when we see life in general. NO ONE created God...He always was and that in itself says we can not even comprehend His greatness...believing is by choice,faith is by choice...some are so intimidated by Him that they feel it necessary to come up with something to explain away everything God has done....one day all will be enlightened...and amazed...God will then let us see from less human eyes and it will all make sense to us as well. Say what you will about gods and goddesses that aren't the great I AM. There IS only one creator and despite the big bang THEORY...there will always be only one great I AM. Question as you will but He IS and always will be. Peace to you my friend.

 

[pandamonk]

God reveals things to we mere mortal humans as we grow in Him and are able to understand the workings of our creator.

if your god reveals things to you, show me how omnipotence is possible eg. prove that what i said is wrong!

NO ONE created God...He always was and that in itself says we can not even comprehend His greatness

Why not say "NO ONE created the universe...It always was and that in itself says we can not even comprehend Its greatness"? You never actually said anything of any value, just went on about how great "God" is. Not actually saying how and why I'm, supposedly, wrong.

 

[Tawn]

to second guess Him would IMPO make YOU the ignorant one...

Im sorry, that seems like a non-sensical statement. How can doubt be ignorant? Ignorance is when you DONT consider all the possibilities and alternatives. By its very definition, not doubting Gods existance is ignorant. Yet I dont see why one can not have faith and belief with a little doubt.

 

[fromthe heart]

if your god reveals things to you, show me how omnipotence is possible eg. prove that what i said is wrong!
Why not say "NO ONE created the universe...It always was and that in itself says we can not even comprehend Its greatness"? You never actually said anything of any value, just went on about how great "God" is. Not actually saying how and why I'm, supposedly, wrong.

I posted my personal opinion...I've lived for 50 going on 51 years...I don't feel I have to prove anything to anyone...believe what you will and I'll respect your opinion but don't expect me to 'prove' anything to you. If God one day wants to reveal Himself to you He shall and then and only then will you understand why I feel as I do...in the meantime pandamonk what you believe for yourself is just fine with me. I won't hold it against you because we may differ in opinion...after all what fun would there be if we were all carbon copies of each other. Prove my beliefs are wrong just as you want me to prove they are right....then we'll talk stories.

 

[fromthe heart]

Im sorry, that seems like a non-sensical statement. How can doubt be ignorant? Ignorance is when you DONT consider all the possibilities and alternatives. By its very definition, not doubting Gods existance is ignorant. Yet I dont see why one can not have faith and belief with a little doubt.

Hi Tawn...That's very true..perhaps a better word would have been used there but I assume when you say You don't believe in God then would you not be leaving that consideration out as well? There is Nothing wrong with doubt...even Thomas had doubts and he walked with Jesus...so I would say doubts are just human but to say something just doesn't exsist period is being an ignored possible fact. I personally don't need proof...it's called faith in God to be as He claims and to do as He claims...I'm as insignifficant as an ant but as important as gold. He is my Father in heaven. I have my personal proofs of His exsistence...science sure couldn't explain so I feel as I feel and will respect whatever you feel as your personal best as well.

 

[Tawn]

I assume when you say You don't believe in God then would you not be leaving that consideration out as well?

Course not! No hypothesis is beyond possibility.

but to say something just doesn't exsist period is being an ignored possible fact.

Agreed. I cant say I fully understand Strong Atheism.

so I feel as I feel and will respect whatever you feel as your personal best as well.

 

[Prima]

Ah, I believe I finally understand what you're saying.

Rephrased, your first arguement is: can God make something more powerful than Himself?

My answer is, there IS nothing more powerful than God. God is not a specific being, it's more of a title. The idea of God is that which is all-powerful, the highest being in existence. Therefore, if God made - I believe your example was magnets - better than He, the magnets would then be God. We name God that which, to our knowledge, is the highest power in the Universe.

Now, on the idea of omniscence. I am a weaver, and the equivalent of God. I know everything there is to know about what I'm doing - how a cloth will turn out depending on what I do (what loom size, what shuttle, etc) But do I still have room to choose? certainly. I know everything. I know that if I choose a red color to go here, this is how it will look. Thus I am both omniscent and have free will. I am also omnipotent - if I don't like the colors I have, I can make a new color.

That covers two of your points. I have to reread the rest to see if I can grasp what you're trying to say.

 

[pandamonk]

Prove my beliefs are wrong just as you want me to prove they are right....then we'll talk stories.

Isn't that what i attempted to do? I attemped to prove the existence of a monotheistic god to be impossible. I believe i have presented quite a good argument for being just 17 and only being interested in god discussions for the past 6 months.

If God one day wants to reveal Himself to you He shall and then and only then will you understand why I feel as I do

And how will he/it reveal himself to me? Give me cancer? Been there, done that. Yes last year i did have cancer and had christians tell me this was God trying to prove himself to me/punishing me for not believing. How else do you suggest he will prove himself?

but to say something just doesn't exsist period is being an ignored possible fact.

I don't just say something doesn't exist period either. That is why i read up on it, to try and get the facts and make an informed decision. I feel i have done this as i haven't accepted something just "because". I have thought logically and critically about it and came to my conclusions. I feel that my conclusions are very strong and am testing them by putting them in debates/discussions like this.

so I feel as I feel and will respect whatever you feel as your personal best as well.

Thank you. It is quite rare to find a Christian/religious person who does.:jam:

 

[fromthe heart]

Isn't that what i attempted to do? I attemped to prove the existence of a monotheistic god to be impossible. I believe i have presented quite a good argument for being just 17 and only being interested in god discussions for the past 6 months. And how will he/it reveal himself to me? Give me cancer? Been there, done that. Yes last year i did have cancer and had christians tell me this was God trying to prove himself to me/punishing me for not believing. How else do you suggest he will prove himself?I don't just say something doesn't exist period either. That is why i read up on it, to try and get the facts and make an informed decision. I feel i have done this as i haven't accepted something just "because". I have thought logically and critically about it and came to my conclusions. I feel that my conclusions are very strong and am testing them by putting them in debates/discussions like this.Thank you. It is quite rare to find a Christian/religious person who does.:jam:

Yes you are young and have a lot (I Pray) of life ahead of you. I have to disagree...God didn't give you cancer to punish you OR to get your attention...He's a loving God and that is a cruel thing to have to go through. I would say something in your chemical makeup just went off course and it wasn't God punishing you. If God reaches out to you it won't be so disasterous...He will call you softly to know Him and the need to know Him will grow stronger...perhaps that is what is causing you to question...perhaps not only you can look inside to see what you feel or believe...I'm SO sorry some 'professing christian" said that to you...God reaches out with Hope,Love,Charity...not something so awful as cancer...Please forgive me if I said anything to offend you in saying any of what I said...I am a Christian and wouldn't want you to think God would ever bring you something so bad. You are in very tender years and I've been through those years too. I reach out to you with love...God will too!

 

[pandamonk]

Ah, I believe I finally understand what you're saying.

Rephrased, your first arguement is: can God make something more powerful than Himself?

The magnet would not be God, It would have a stronger physical strength than god but would not be omnipotent(able to do anything).

Now, on the idea of omniscence. I am a weaver, and the equivalent of God. I know everything there is to know about what I'm doing - how a cloth will turn out depending on what I do (what loom size, what shuttle, etc) But do I still have room to choose? certainly. I know everything. I know that if I choose a red color to go here, this is how it will look.

Omniscience(infinite knowledge)knows everything there is to know. Not just about what they are doing but about what they will do infinitely into the future and infinitely into the past. Knowing everything that has and will happen and all the stuff in between. Knowing everything there is to know about everything! So if you know everything u will do in the future right from the begining of ur existence (infinitely in the past) then you have always known what you are going to do. Even if you change your mind, you would have known right from the start you wer going to change you mind. Everything is predestined to God so he is powerless to change it and if he thinks he has he hasnt because it was going to tunr out like that anyway. It's confussing i know. It is impossible even. That is why, i feel, a gods existence is impossible:jiggy:

 

[Prima]

With the magnet - God is still able to do anything, including choosing whether or not he can do something! If he chooses to not be able to do something, he can't because he chose not to. But he can also choose to be able to. And then you get into that he can choose to choose to be able to do something...

Omniscence:
Well, there you have a few choices
- We have mislabeled God as omniscient, and he knows everything about everything except Himself
- Our idea of God has not been fully realized yet
- We are trying to understand God on human terms and it is impossible
- God chooses to not know something, or chooses to ignore it.

 

[pandamonk]

I'm SO sorry some 'professing christian" said that to you.

that "professing christian" is my girlfriend of two and a half years.

I would say something in your chemical makeup just went off course

yes that's the scientific approach.

perhaps that is what is causing you to question

no my girlfriend was causing me to question. She was told over and over that she should not be with a non believer and came very close to splitting up with me over it. I believe that is when i started becoming interested in God debates. Firstly i looked at christianity and all it had to offer and just couldn't accept it, not because i didn't want to or I was rebelling, but because all it taught seemed impossible. So i looked into it and found that i was, in my eyes and many others eyes, right. I invested in a bible, and three other books and have proved, to myself and a few friends at least, that christianity is false. I also have a few videos proving the bible to be false too. And I now can never believe in a god unless I'm am proved with substantial proof for it/him/her.

 

[Tawn]

Omnipotence(all powerful) i believe is impossible

reason: can god or any other, supposedly, omnipotent being make 2 magnets that are too powerful for god/that being to separate. if yes that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot separate the magnets, if no that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot make the magnets?

A paradox proves nothing im afraid..

In fact I answered a similar question on whether God could create a rock to heavy for him to lift. Let me dig it up...

If God's powers are infinite, then he could supposedly make an infinitely heavy rock. Likewise his 'lifting' ability would also be infinite.
The complication comes from the fact that the human mind cannot comprehand or properly analyse infinity. It is beyond our capabilities.
In order to NOT be able to life the rock however, gods abilties to create a heavy rock would have to be BEYOND those of his abilties at lifting. Since infinity is infinite there can be nothing beyond it. It can go as far as is necessary.
Therefore since infinity is equal to infinity we can safely assume that whatever God can create, he can lift.
The alternative approach is that God can lift 'anything'. 'Heavyness' is not a limiting factor for a being of ultimate power. In other words he would find it just as easy to life a 'light' rock as he would a 'heavy' rock. No matter how heavy he makes it, it is just as easy to lift.

Can you see a similar answer for your analogy?

 

[Tawn]

Omniscience(infinite knowledge)knows everything there is to know. Not just about what they are doing but about what they will do infinitely into the future and infinitely into the past. Knowing everything that has and will happen and all the stuff in between. Knowing everything there is to know about everything! So if you know everything u will do in the future right from the begining of ur existence (infinitely in the past) then you have always known what you are going to do. Even if you change your mind, you would have known right from the start you wer going to change you mind. Everything is predestined to God so he is powerless to change it and if he thinks he has he hasnt because it was going to tunr out like that anyway. It's confussing i know. It is impossible even. That is why, i feel, a gods existence is impossible:jiggy:

This is a very good argument.. and the weaver analogy is hardly approapriate.. you are still liable to make mistakes and experiement 'to see what happens'.. and after all you havent seen the future.

 

[pandamonk]

With the magnet - God is still able to do anything, including choosing whether or not he can do something! If he chooses to not be able to do something, he can't because he chose not to. But he can also choose to be able to. And then you get into that he can choose to choose to be able to do something...

but in choosing not to be able to do something is that not choosing not to be omnipotent and therefore not to be a god?

Omniscence:
Well, there you have a few choices
- We have mislabeled God as omniscient, and he knows everything about everything except Himself

But God to humans is omniscient and if he isn't he cannot be a god. So by saying this you are admitting that your "God" is not a real god acording to the definition.

- Our idea of God has not been fully realized yet
- We are trying to understand God on human terms and it is impossible

these, i believe are the only 2 possible if you want to believe in god but in saying that you are admitting that we do not/cannot know God, adopting an agnostic position

- God chooses to not know something, or chooses to ignore it.

if God chose not to know something would that not be him choosing not to be omniscient and therefore not to be a god?

 

[pandamonk]

A paradox proves nothing im afraid..

In fact I answered a similar question on whether God could create a rock to heavy for him to lift. Let me dig it up...

Can you see a similar answer for your analogy?

that is the exact place i took it from, i presented that argument to a Christian once who said something about gravity so changed it so gravity wouldn't affect it.

I see your point about infinite power and that you can't have more power than infinite power. And i grant that you are very intelligent. I've never heard or thought of an argument agaisnt that. Ok so take the example of the square-circle then. God must be able to make/draw/whatever a square-circle. Tell me how. If you don't know then, it proves my point with what i said in the first post. The leader sending soldiers into battle thing. I know you are an Atheist but still. Aww I'm tired, It's 00.30 and I have a very important exam at 9 tomorrow. lol

 

[pandamonk]

This is a very good argument.. and the weaver analogy is hardly approapriate.. you are still liable to make mistakes and experiement 'to see what happens'.. and after all you havent seen the future.

Thank you. I don't understand what you mean

you are still liable to make mistakes and experiement 'to see what happens'

. If you mean God is liable to make mistakes, that is impossible, God is perfect.

and after all you havent seen the future

if you mean God hasn't seen the future, then, I know he hasn't but he still knows it. If you meant me personally to both then I'm sorry but I don't have a clue what you mean, lol.

 

[chuck010342]

This is aimed at believers in a god.

and this is amied at an atheist

God

also known as ABBA ask my why if you are interested.

A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

I like this definition.

Omnipotence(all powerful) i believe is impossible

I can believe their are flying oranges circuling my head but is that true? (depends on what kind of drugs you are doing lol)

reason: can god or any other, supposedly, omnipotent being make 2 magnets that are too powerful for god/that being to separate. if yes that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot separate the magnets, if no that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot make the magnets?

good, very good you give reasons for your views.

anyway this is an old argument. This is like the old argument that if God is omnipotent then can he create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? (I like the Homer Simpson version: "if Jesus is so powerful can he cook a burrito so hot he cannot eat it?")

the reason why this doesn't work as a valid argument is because; according to defenition it is not possible to do. The question needs to be corrected it is impossible to answer because it is not possible to do in essance it is a stupid question.

omniscience (all knowing) i also believe is impossible if god is to have free will/act/think/do anything basically.

reason: if god was omniscient he would know everything he was going to do right from the start of his/its existence therefore anything it did do would be predetermined and even god a, supposedly, omnipotent being could not change what he knew would happen. therefore god could not have free will and is just, basically, acting with no thought etc. and if god knew everything what is the point of praying? he knows what you're going to say.

Wy do you think Jesus said "do not make lengthy prayers"?

originator and ruler of the universe:

ok the universe is too complicated, according to most christians, not to have a creator so must have been designed and build by god. But if god designed and built the universe does that also not make him/it too complicated not to have a creator so who created him/it? a super god? but would it/him not be too complicated, so who created him/it? a superdooper god? well who....you know where this is going. So is it not easier to say the universe was not designed or created? and maybe just accept the big bang theory or something?

I have no idea what you are saying here could you clarify it for me?

just something to think about [/QUOTE]

 

[pandamonk]

also known as ABBA ask my why if you are interested.

yeh why? lol

I can believe their are flying oranges circuling my head but is that true? (depends on what kind of drugs you are doing lol)

lol nice one yeah, you can believe what you want. thing is some people force what they believe onto others and i want that to stop, so i show them where, i think, they've gone wrong.

good, very good you give reasons for your views.

yeah i hate when people just say something without giving a reason or proof. They just say anything and expect you to believe it for no reason.

anyway this is an old argument. This is like the old argument that if God is omnipotent then can he create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? (I like the Homer Simpson version: "if Jesus is so powerful can he cook a burrito so hot he cannot eat it?")

I know it is an old argument but i thought it was a rather good one.lol i've never seen that on the simpsons.i'll have to look out for it. it's rather funny.

the reason why this doesn't work as a valid argument is because; according to defenition it is not possible to do. The question needs to be corrected it is impossible to answer because it is not possible to do in essance it is a stupid question.

it is impossible to do for us yes but not for a, supposedly, omnipotent (meaning infinite power/can do anything) being ie a god
but as Tawn pointed out the argument does fall flat on its face and he gives the reason.

I have no idea what you are saying here could you clarify it for me?

ok i was saying that many Christians have the argument "the universe is too complicated to not have a creator. So due to the complicatedness, it has a creator." and I'm saying "due to the complicatedness of the creator, it also needs a creator and the creator of that creator would also need a creator etc etc."so I'm saying isn't it more likely that the universe was created some other way "The Big Bang" for example?