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Featured God created or naturally arised

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by We Never Know, Jul 25, 2021.

  1. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    I see some here that believe in a god and that a god created things but yet in the same breath argue for abiogenesis, evolution and the big bang.

    So my question is if you accept everything happened naturally, why do you believe in a god? Why is a god needed in your belief of things?
     
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  2. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Without a sense of the Divine, life would have no intrinsic meaning and purpose and my experience is that life has intrinsic meaning and purpose.
     
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  3. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Some people see God, as the saying goes, as the Grand Clockmaker. Every natural process is thus one of the tools in the arsenal of the deity. You might be familiar with the famous saying "any science advanced enough will look like magic". The opposite is equally true any "magic" sufficiently understood and detailed is impossible to differentiate from a natural phenomenon. The idea of the Grand Clockmaker is to produce a theology from which magic and the supernatural is absent. There is only the Clock and all of its mysterious working and by understanding the Clock you can understand glimpse of the Grand Clockmaker. Those who hold on to such a belief don't feel that appeals to magic are necessary for their theistic beliefs.
     
  4. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Every tribe, group, etc had a god. It may have been the lighting god, the thunder god, the wind god, the sun god, the rain god, etc.
    To each they are equally valid but to each the other isn't valid. How does one choose?
     
  5. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Yet a clock is man made. Does that mean a god is man made?
     
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  6. Φᅠᅠ

    Φᅠᅠ Active Member

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    Well, your question assumes God is somehow only necessary to explain stuff. But as @sun rise pointed out, there may be other reasons for believing in God, such as the desire to have ultimate meaning in life.
     
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  7. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    It's a metaphor. The idea is that the universe is just like a very complex clock, the most complex clock and like any clock it has a creator whose intellect and abilities are unimaginable.
     
  8. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Of course. People believe in things for many reasons. Their belief doesn't make them true.
     
  9. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Yet your metaphor is like the clock, its man made. A god would be above all we can comprehend.
     
  10. Φᅠᅠ

    Φᅠᅠ Active Member

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    So what? This has nothing to do with your initial question. The question is what reason some people have for believing in God even though the world can be explained in naturalistic terms.
     
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  11. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    My question... So my question is if you accept everything happened naturally, why do you believe in a god? Why is a god needed in your belief of things?

    So if...
    John believes in a god that created life.
    Bob believes life rose naturally
    Sally believes a god created the universe
    Linda believes it came from the big bang

    As I said people believe in things for many reasons. Their belief doesn't make them true.
     
  12. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Not all god are by necessity incomprehensible. Some are very personable to the point of simplicity. The Grand Clockmaker version of god is fairly mysterious. Such a belief doesn't explain exactly what is the Grand Clockmaker. It only gives one characteristics, that of the creator and designer of the cosmos. It doesn't explain why it created a universe or how or if it has any desire for us (though generally such belief comes with a strict view on predestination).
     
  13. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Or the supposed grand clock maker could be nature, all natural happening, no god needed.
     
  14. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. I don't believe in any deities or "creator" for that reason. It's not exactly needed for nature to exist.
     
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  15. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I see no problem in:
    a) Belief in God
    b) Big Bang and Evolution

    It all comes down to "how one defines God"
     
    #15 stvdv, Jul 25, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
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  16. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I need (depend on) God's help, otherwise I would be dead right now. That is why I need God. But besides that, I like to have God in my life, much more interesting

    For starters I have physical challenges, and doctors could not help me. So, when meeting my Master 30 years ago , Sai Baba, I told Him (mentally) "IF you are God, I surrender to you, and you will be my doctor, tell me what diet to follow and what else to do".

    Over the years He gave me the best diet advice. And He cured quite a few of my "incurable (according to Big Pharma) challenges (for which I am very grateful)". And He takes my pain away, so even though not all physical challenges have been cured, at least I don't have pain anymore (as long as I keep focused on Him)

    I need dialysis, but Sai Baba gave me a natural alternative, so that I can do without being dependent on hospitals and needles stuck in my body

    So, yes, it's very easy for me to believe in God. Because God materializes in my life; God takes away my pain, and gives solutions that doctors do not even know about (or they know but don't tell us, which would be really bad, so I rather think that they just don't know about these natural solutions)

    I really don't like it that I depend on God in a way, because I don't like to ask for help. But in another way it's very useful to NEED God, because it keeps me humble. And now that I have plenty of proof that God takes care of my problems (and me), life is much more fun. And life is much easier

    And best of all "God in my life" is really nice, gives me much more depth to "life" and it's intriguing, and makes life worthwhile
     
    #16 stvdv, Jul 25, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
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  17. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    To me, I can not find a naturaø cause of universe suddenly just exist without any form of "spark" from a creator.
    When it comes to evolution, in my current understanding it is the work of God, in form of an automatic system that for us humans seems like a natural evolving experience. Of course i might be wrong in my understanding
     
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  18. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
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    Can it not be reconciled that a god is the force behind what happens naturally?
     
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  19. ben d

    ben d Being

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    If believers in God want the concept of nature to be understood as the workings of God's creation, then why not? If non-believers want the concept of nature to be understood as being an inherent ongoing result of some non-divine creation (such as big bang), then why not? The wise should not be fazed by names. evolution can be seen as the workings of God or blind nature, depending on the belief held by each person, but the reality remains the same. Evolution can be seen as being consistent with the laws of God's nature, or by the laws of non-divine/blind nature, there should be no problem with understanding that nature, divine or big bang derived, is real.

    Of course, and rightfully so, individuals can disagree on scientific and logical grounds wrt claims about nature's workings, but that should not have to do with who is responsible, God or Big Bang!
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    The big bang and evolution are not against the Bible imo since they do not speak to creation, unless one is a young earth creationist, it is only abiogenesis which is a problem, the giving of life.
    So a God is needed for the creation and the giving of life and for the laws of physics and for holding everything together and keeping it going, and for the salvation of humans so we don't just die and stay dead, and for having told us how to live and for giving us what we need to live and etc etc.
     
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