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God as Love vs God as Judge
- Thread starter Halcyon
- Start date
Ringer
Jar of Clay
I think he is perfectly capable to do judge someone and still love them at the same time. The phrase that you highlighted doesn't suggest to me that God forgets completely about our sins/transgressions. It means that they are no longer held against us in the future. In the same way, if you were to steal my shoes and I forgive you doing so, it's not my place to bring this back to your attention to use it against you. After all, by doing that, I never truely forgave you. However, I still think you will be held accountable one day before God in the same way that I will. It's not because God doesn't love either of us; God judges us so that his work will be completed.
Since God is a perfect judge, then he can certainly still be love. Besides that, He is very forgiving.
Charity
Let's go racing boys !
Yes, because God chastises those whom he loves. Just like any parent with their children, you show them the error of their ways..........
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
How can someone be held accountable for something that is not held against them?
God's judgment is different than man's judgment. Men and women judge a lot more harshly than I believe that God does.
Ringer
Jar of Clay
I'm not sure if I can give you a sufficient answer besides the fact that according to the Bible we will stand before a holy God to answer for what we did in life. I think it's possible for this and still receive grace from God that when we ask for forgiveness from our sins, it does not affect our standing with him in the present or future? Hopefully you see what I'm getting at even if you don't agree with me. Our mistakes and shortcoming in our past don't necessarily affect how God deals with us in the now. You made a mistake, you repented, I forgave, lets put that behind us and move on. You forget about it and so will I. That's how I picture it.
Jehonadab
Member
Yes God can become what is needed based on the situation....is he a judge yes, he was the judge for King David and he extended mercy towards him, a human judge would have had to have both he and Bathsheba put to death. This demonstrated love.
Is he a God of love...God is love 1 John 1:4
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
I'm afraid I don't understand how you gel the two together, but I'm happy that it works for you.
For me, I can't wrap my head around the idea that God forgives and forgets on the one hand, but also judges and perhaps condemns on the other. I see it as an either/or scenario, but maybe I've just got a mental block.
Heneni
Miss Independent
For god to act in the office of a judge...there needs to be an accused. Someone who has committed a crime.
Who are the accused?
What is the charge? Anyone like to guess
Who gets to be declared ...NOT GUILTY
Who gets to be declared ....guilty?
Where are the witnesses?
Who are the lawyers?
What is the evidence......
Who are the accused?
What is the charge? Anyone like to guess
Who gets to be declared ...NOT GUILTY
Who gets to be declared ....guilty?
Where are the witnesses?
Who are the lawyers?
What is the evidence......
Jehonadab
Member
Yes, because God chastises those whom he loves. Just like any parent with their children, you show them the error of their ways..........
Charity makes a good point. A parent loves their children and yet they may judge their childrens actions as desrving of punishment.
And God being our heavenly father also has that right but his standards or higher then ours...imagine your 18 year old decides they want to bring drugs and alcohol into your home, have wild orgies, and be disrespectful towards you, would you let them continue or would you out them out of your house? God has watched many people disobey his house rules and he has put them out of his house. Life is a priviledge...death is the reward for sin.
Heneni
Miss Independent
There is a difference between god acting as a judge and god acting as a parent. God disciplines his children...he doesnt judge them...as a judge..he would require the accused, the lawyers, the witnesses and the sentence to be passed. A good judge does not have any relation to the accused.
The bible says that his children DO NOT come up for judgement.
heneni
Jehonadab
Member
Ezekiel 7:1-5 speaks of God judging. 1 Samuel 2:10 does also. Psalms 7:8 shows David asking to be judged. God has judged many in the bible...hy the most high need lawyers and witnesses when He can read hearts....
Heneni
Miss Independent
Yes god can read hearts, but he is not a good judge unless he is impartial. To judge those who do not belong to him, he needs witnesses, he needs laywers and he needs a charge.
God doesnt send anyone to eternal doom and gloom cause he doesnt like their armani suit.
So then...the wicked is the accused, the lawyers are jesus and satan, the witnesses are the saints, angels and demons.
The sentence...that depends on the judge. But since this entire universe belongs to him, i guess anybody that ends up in his court is going to hope for mercy.
heneni
PS: The judge is right at the door...so we shouldnt think that one day the bell will ring and the school of earth has come out, and we will all stand before god. Judgement is what happens to the wicked when they die.
Jehonadab
Member
Acts 10:34-35 '...God is not partial, but in every nation he who fears him and practices righteousness is acceptable to him..."
who doesn't belong to God?
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
Right, but the thread is really about God being Love, as is often stated by believers, and the definition of Love that St. Paul gives in 1 Corinthians that I quoted in the OP, where he suggests that Love keeps no record of wrongs i.e. forgives and forgets.
I don't see how a God that forgives and forgets your sins, can then turn around and judge you for those forgiven and forgotten sins - does that make sense?
Heneni
Miss Independent
God has disciplined many in the bible.
John 8: 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
john 8: 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
If the children of god DID actually stand before the judgement seat (and i have to admit, they probably will)...they would be declared...NOT GUILTY. Maybe that is why god disciplines his children..so that when they appear before the judgement seat...they will be declared NOT GUILTY. But there would have been no way to be declared not guilty if it wasnt for jesus.
If god the father is doing the disciplining of his children, then maybe HE isnt the judge but jesus is.
John 5: 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Anyway...i am throwing a few ideas around..
I'm still figuring this out myself.
Heneni
Miss Independent
No it doesnt make any sense...so maybe we are missing something.
Maybe god judges based on accusations made against his son and his children. He might have forgiven the sins against him..but the matter of jesus vs. humanity and christian vs. wicked people...might not be in file 13 already.
ranjana
Active Member
i have been reading Houston Smith's classic book of the world's religions, and that dilemma was illustrated perfectly:
A king had some empty glasses. He said, "If I pour hot water into them they will crack; if I pour ice-cold water into them they will also crack!" What did the king do? He mixed the hot and the cold water together and poured it into them and they did not crack. Even so did the Holy One, blessed be He, say: "If I create the world on the basis of the attribute of mercy alone, the world's sins will greatly multiply. If I create it on the basis of the attribute of justice alone, how could the world endure? I will therefore create it with both the attributes of mercy and justice, and may it endure!"
love and justice are inextricable, even if one is mentioned without the other, i believe.
A king had some empty glasses. He said, "If I pour hot water into them they will crack; if I pour ice-cold water into them they will also crack!" What did the king do? He mixed the hot and the cold water together and poured it into them and they did not crack. Even so did the Holy One, blessed be He, say: "If I create the world on the basis of the attribute of mercy alone, the world's sins will greatly multiply. If I create it on the basis of the attribute of justice alone, how could the world endure? I will therefore create it with both the attributes of mercy and justice, and may it endure!"
love and justice are inextricable, even if one is mentioned without the other, i believe.