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God and Reason

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by Unes, Feb 28, 2009.

  1. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah Member

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    Unes,

    You fail to reason that one of the angelic messengers took the lead in speaking to Abraham as "Jehovah". This one angel represented Jehovah (who is Almighty, not just Mighty, Gen 17:1) before Abraham. Even of Moses, he was told by an angel, that in going before Pharoah of Egypt in 1513 B.C.E., that "you will serve as God to him."(Ex 4:16) Hence, Moses represented Jehovah before Pharoah.

    Thus, there was an angel that represented Jehovah in leading and speaking to Abraham and his "seed", the nation of Israel, with that one later coming to the earth as Jesus Christ, for the apostle Paul wrote that "our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ."(1 Cor 10:1-4)

    Jehovah God does not have to leave his throne, but rather sends forth angelic representatives, as his "ministers".(Ps 103:21) He has a large heavenly army of angels that serve him loyally, with the expression "Jehovah of armies" being used in the Bible 271 times, starting with 1 Samuel 1.
     
  2. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Dear Jaareshiah,
    I sensed that you have studied extensively the material of the Holy Scriptures. And you are excited to enlighten the whole world, and educate people of many new ideas which you have developed about the Holy Scriptures.

    I admire your intention, and if I may, I have a simple suggestion for your honorable endeavor; it would be prudent for you to observe and honor the etiquette of this forum, and post your enlightened Jesus views in Christianity section, or in Judaism section of this forum. In those areas many of your peers might appreciate your new expansive views about the Holy Scriptures, versus this area of the forum which skeptics do ridicule your absurd views and your contradictory logic.

    Personally, I think you have been a great help to expose the Holy Scripture’s nonsense, I never thought such contradictory logic could be possible! I confess, without your help I might have been accused of being biased! Your contradictory logic has taken the Holy Scriptures’ nonsense to a brand new height!

    Regarding my simple suggestion, I imagine such a suggestion will not register with somebody whose mind is incapable of thinking rationally!

    May God Bless Us All,
    Unes
     
    #42 Unes, Dec 22, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
  3. Blackheart

    Blackheart Active Member

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    When I saw your name I assumed you were a Muslim. Then I read

    Please tell me your not.
     
  4. AntEmpire

    AntEmpire Active Member

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    "Reason is an ability found in humans, that is able to generate conclusions from assumptions or premises."

    Even if reason pointed to a specific God-figure existing, these would rely on your personal assumptions about the world/god and it would simply mean you have generated the conclusion that which-ever specific God exists.

    In other words, so what if your vision of the world leads you to believe in your vision of god?
     
  5. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Hi Blackheart,
    If we can conclude that either Holy Torah or Holy Bible are not words of God, then, by default, that proves that Holy Koran is not words of God either!

    I was borne in Iran to a Muslim family. I practiced Islam till age of 23, and then I wised up and stopped being a Muslim.

    Regarding my name; Unes in Persian is the same as Joanna in English. At Tehran University, while still I was practicing Islam, I was mingling a lot with my four Jewish classmates, because of that and because of my name, after three years in that school some of my other classmates thought that I was a Jew!

    In this forum I started a thread entitled: “ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/76909-holy-koran-facts.html”. In that thread I pointed out many falsehoods in the Holy Koran.


    May God Bless Us All,
    Unes
     
    #45 Unes, Dec 23, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  6. Blackheart

    Blackheart Active Member

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    Very interesting. So do you subscribe to any form of religious beliefs then?
     
  7. Zardoz

    Zardoz Wonderful Wizard
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    This is a DIR forum, read the rulz why dontcha...
     
  8. Onlooker

    Onlooker Member

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    Unes,
    Like most of us, our religious introduction as children has been tarnished by hypocrisy and other issues our "leaders", "teachers" and parents provided us. Bottom line, not one of us can change your mind. BUT THE COOLEST PART, the search is a blast.
    My funnest discovery is how the Torah describes the creation event. Its 32 +/- verses that are full of hidden meaning. But the neat part, it fits our current scientific construct of the Big Bang theory. Ex nilo start, things created out of nothing ...then things created out of those newly created things. The concept that a "day" is night then day, darkness then light.
    All this to say, no proof is there except your peace that you find. If it gets you peace, it may be the ticket. Good luck.
     
  9. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    [FONT=&quot]Thank you Zardoz for protecting the merits of these exchanges![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]I need to correct a mistake in my previous post; Unes in Persian is the same as Jonah in English. The following is a passage from Wikipedia. [/FONT]Jonah (Hebrew יוֹנָה, ModernTiberian Yônā ; dove; Arabic: يونس‎, Yūnus or يونان, Yūnān; Greek/Latin: Ionas) is the name given in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh/Old Testament) to a prophet of the northern kingdom of Israel in about the 8th century BC, the eponymous central character in the Book of Jonah, famous for being swallowed by a fish. The Biblical story of Jonah is repeated in the Qur'an. Yona

    [FONT=&quot]Blackheart,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I do not follow any established theology or philosophy. What I am expressing in this thread is not just some pure abstract thoughts that might be formed based on some logic, I have formed my thoughts based on my own personal experiences. Of course, that is as far as I could comprehend them and rationalize them! And I assume that my thoughts might be riddled with many short-comings and contradictions! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]I try to educate myself about the essence of many other theologies, but I have never tried to match my views with any of those schools of thoughts! Few years ago somebody suggested that my views resemble that of the Panentheism. However, I found out that Panentheism is very diverse, and it has many variations![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Onlooker,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I am not clear what you are trying to say. In one hand I think, that you criticize the hypocrisies of the "leaders", the "teachers" and parents. On the other hand you are hinting that my mind is frozen and it is incapable of accepting any change! I welcome any fresh idea that it sounds logical to me! And may I ask; changing my mind to accept what!? I am exploring the issue of God to the best of my ability, and if it is proven that I have made a mistake somewhere, then I will be quick to correct that shortcoming without any hesitation. But the pointed mistake has to be precise, and it should sound logical to me! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Well, there is a gross exaggeration in the insight regarding the day and night! Let me be clear about this I do believe that God initiated and created the Universe. But, I do not accept the creation story which is described in Genesis. The Genesis story of creation is way different from the Big Bang theory which our modern science has discovered so far. But of course I do share with you the view that the person who envisioned the idea that in the beginning there was nothing, and God initiated the Universe. This was an incredible inspiration from the people who were so primitive about the knowledge of their environment, and this enlightenment can easily be constituted as a profound revelation. This abstract thought is so profound that even our modern science today is still can not digest it! And it is labeled as a singularity! Science has been trying very hard to have some kind of explanation for the birth of the Universe, and it has no problem to condone such an event as the touch of two membranes in a Universe which consists of many membranes. Of course, such a thought also tries to resolve the puzzle of the weak gravity field. But, in the absence of any evidence to support such theory, that theory is as weak as, or as strong as, believing in the existence of the Creator![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]The point that God started the Universe is not that random thought which could be singled out among many other thoughts. The facts that this strange thought has ignited and has illuminated Man’s imagination to this extend and with such devotions and vigor is pointing to the miraculous nature of this inspiration. I think the other material regarding the first day, second day, . . . and so on they are distracting, diminishing, and destroying the beauty and the significance of this un-paralleled and miraculous inspiration. I think this inspiration triggered and inspired Man to use his own limited knowledge and imagination to fill up the rest of the Genesis story of creation! That is why the first day, the second day, . . . , do not match with the scientific Big Bang theory! The Big Bang gave birth to extremely intense light right from the beginning before anything else was formed! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]However, if your intention is; to debate the comparison between the Genesis story of creation and the Big Bang theory, I am sorry, I am not interested to repeat that debate in this thread. I am sure, already there are many threads dealt with that comparison, and you can pursue your interest in those threads. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Well, I feel that I have already provided one plausible proof! [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Anyhow, pursuit of knowledge does make me happy! And I do not predetermine where that knowledge should lead me! And if this dialog could be expanded peacefully and without prejudice, it might produce some fruits toward a more universal peace. Just imagine, if all denominations submit to the proven scientific findings! Yes I know; this is too naïve to think like that! But, little by little the enlightened change is on the march; it took 350 years for the Christian Church to admit their mistake about the Galileo’s verdict! That was a gigantic shift to accept that Earth was not the center of the Universe! And the diseases were not the acts of the devil! And the people who committed the inquisitions were murderers! And any “Claimed Holly Books” which could give rise to such horrible conducts should be condemned. As far as developing guideline for human’s behaviors, our newly accepted civilized norm is way superior to those of the Holy Books![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot](Because of the 10,000 characters limitation I continue onto the next post.)[/FONT]
     
  10. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    [FONT=&quot](This part is continued from the previous post.)[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]AntEmpire,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I totally agree with this assessment. Isn’t this assessment true with every thought that we have? Aren’t we using the same neurons for all our analyses; scientific or otherwise!? Then, why do we think that our scientific conclusions are valid and legitimate, and our spiritual and supernatural thoughts somehow belong to some crackpots!? [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]We know that science thrives on exhaustive and controllable testing to verify all aspects of the phenomenon which is the subject of the study. However, in the case of the supernatural experiences not even one experience can be tested or can be repeated! Even the individuals, who experience the supernatural phenomena, are not that certain of the validity of the nature of their own personal experiences! So, readily I admit that our supernatural phenomena do not fit within the framework of our scientific methods. But, this does not mean that our supernatural phenomena are void or they are invalid. This only means that our modern science is not equipped to deal with the supernatural phenomena, and that is all! It is wrong to think; since we can not test the supernatural phenomena then, they do not exist! We can not test the supernatural phenomena, simply because, we are not in control to initiate them![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Some people might argue that supernatural phenomenon is not a common phenomenon which could impact people’s daily lives. As a result this issue should remain in the back burner and it is not important to pay that much attention to this illusive subject. Besides, it only influences very few people and those influences are so negligible that counts for nothing. So why bother to waste our precious time discussing this very murky subject!? I totally disagree with this assessment, and my evidence is so simple. In light of so many scientific discoveries, which we agreed that most of them are clearly verifiable, and those discoveries very clearly proved the falsehood of the infallibility of the Holy Books. Then, we should expect by now the established religions must have been vanished from all developed societies. Or at least the educated believers should have abandoned that nonsense! And yet, we see that is not the case, and the supernatural phenomena in a variety of forms manifest their presence in the core beings of all believers! The believers do sense the presence of God, and his mysterious impacts on their daily lives. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Besides, when science examines our social issues it fails to deliver a clear-cut solutions. And the reason for this is because even though humans is one specie and we all have similar features, but our behaviors, our tastes, our attitudes, our morality, our intellects, and . . . are very diverse! So, simply one social policy can not fully satisfy everybody. That is why on social policies we only could manage to reach to consensus, and that is all! We accept a social policy just because the majority could accept its benefits, and tolerate its deficiencies. And the opposition views do reflect the possible short-coming of the adopted policy! So, on social issues the Unanimous Conclusions simply are not meant to be! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Even regarding our medicines, none of our prescribed medicines has an exact affect on all patients alike. Even our science is built on theories! And we do know those scientific theories are subject to change when the underlying postulates get challenged or altered! Then, expecting, that our views regarding the supernatural phenomenon, which is very fuzzy and confusing to begin with, to be accepted unanimously, is way out of the routine practices of the Human thoughts. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]The diversity of our views[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] regarding the nature of life in general, and the essence of our own existence is an innate characteristic, built within our thoughts. Even our individual views throughout our lives are subject to change and maturations! The affects of our youth or old ages, our societies and cultures, the level of our energy and our privileges, and our individual experiences have a lot to do with the formation of our thoughts and our beliefs. So, based on these backgrounds somebody like me ends up to believe firmly in the existence of God (the God who is influencing our lives all the time), and somebody else who does develop the view; that my conclusion is totally illusionary thoughts! Now, we have no way to judge; that one view is superior over the other one! I need to remind you that I do accept all our scientific findings, and I am not defending the Holy Books as word of God. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Our own specific philosophies of life are formed by our own individual life experiences. My experience of life indicates that we need to experience different aspects of life in order to be able to form a more comprehensive philosophy for life. Of course having different experiences does produce different philosophy! My philosophy of life is simple; genuinely do your best and accept the outcome without any resentment. If we have done an honest work to the best of our abilities, then, we do not need to worry about the result, even if the result is disastrous! Of course Ulysses Grant and Robert E Lee, they both genuinely did their best to prevail and to save their own causes, which they were struggling for. And the civil war created so many miseries just because those two individuals, honestly tried their best! But the brutalities of wars are yet to be fully understood in the processes of the development of our intelligence. We simply can not see the big picture of life. It took about 350 years in order that “Galileo’s Church altering thoughts” to be fully vindicated! And it is taking about 1500 years that Prophet Mohammad’s false claims to be exposed! Mysteriously, sometimes a white lie brings a genuine success for a period! Nurturing and advancing human’s brain and maturing the Intelligence is a tricky and complex business, which in that processes truth and lies play their roles, also angels and evils play their roles too! This is a complex puzzling process which we are beginning to comprehend and appreciate its dynamics. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]When I look at the landscape of my life I notice few very critical coincidences played some pivotal roles in the formation of my life. Many people recognize that many momentous events of our lives are made under very peculiar coincidences, and against extremely rare odds. These momentous events, at least in my case, has given me an over arching view regarding my existence. I sense that there is a purpose for my life, even though the meaning of that purpose is not clear to me! Many believers would attribute such peculiar coincidences as the influences of God in our lives, good or bad. The good events are usually labeled as “God has been very kind to me!” or “being at the right place at the right time!” For the unfortunate events, the believers would resign to their lack of abilities to understand the merits of such disastrous incidences. However, they do recognize the significant coincidences which were involved in the formation of those momentous events, and they recognize that such events have been choreographed by God for a purpose, which its wisdom eludes our comprehensions. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]At the risk of being misunderstood[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot], here for the sake of clarity about our experiences of God, I like to mention about an incident which I experienced just few days ago. In order to understand my mindset at the time of the incident, I need to write a short summary about my upbringing, and I apologize for the personal nature of the summary. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot](Because of the 10,000 characters limitation I continue onto the next post.)[/FONT]
     
  11. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    [FONT=&quot](This part is continued from the previous post.)[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]From an early age I have dreamed that I will achieve something magnificent in my life. Having that dream I always have been a serious and a hard working person in all my tasks, at school, at work, and at social life. At 1969 I got my BS Degree in science from Tehran University, and in 1975 I got my MS degree from SFSU, and in 1977 I dropped out of PhD program at UCLA. From age 15 I genuinely practiced Islam, and I read many books and articles about Islam. Around 1971 I concluded Holy Koran could not be word of God, and it could not be the only path to salvation. So, I stopped being a Muslim, and actually I figured out all religions were filled with many primitive superstitions, so they must had been manufactured by fable human minds. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Now, I am 64 years old and working as an apartment manager in a student housing environment! Honestly, this out-come looks like a big time failure! But, I am not bitter about it, and still by habit I take all my tasks seriously. And still I have not given up on that early dream! Now, that I have a lot of free time on my hand, I can focus on the issues that interest me, and there is no expectation to achieve anything, expect to satisfy my own curiosity! Few years ago I proved that Moses story was just a fiction and it could not be a historical event. I thought with so many debates which surround that story, my proof could settle that issue once and for all, and by that I could achieve my mark in the history! But, that was not meant to be! My proof did not attract the needed attention! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Through the years I had experienced many weird coincidences, so, gradually it downed on me that so many peculiar coincidence could not have been just the random natural events, and I noticed there was a clear over-arching direction in those coincidences, and eventually I rationalized that those events must have been choreographed by an intelligent being, and God was the only candidate who could fill up that position! At this point someone might conclude that I am blaming God for my miserable failure!!! But this is not the case, I explain this shortly! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Regarding the outcome of my life I am not bitter or sad, on contrarily, I am quite happy and content! I see my limited choices have relieved me from many temptations that life throws at people. And fulfilling those pleasurable temptations are very pleasant, but at the same time, they are very time consuming too! In my view those personal pleasures, pleases people individually, without having an impact on the history! And my dream is; having a positive mark on the history!!! At the same time I am healthy, comfortable, and I have some solace time to ponder! I am sure without this tranquil time I would not be able to absorb the gravity of the events which I am experiencing! A busy life does not allow a person to ponder that much! Isn’t it interesting that we do get abundance of time to ponder about the essence of our lives, at the end of our lives, when we have accumulated some very personal experiences to dissect!? The wisdom of the elders has dominated all our human cultures! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]I am aware that some people might consider my “strange thoughts” are very illusionary thoughts! But that does not discourage me at all! I have dealt with many adversities throughout my life without even doubting the legitimacy of my impossible dream! Of course, getting some approval from my peers it does boost my confidence a great deal. But I am quite content if people decide to criticize my views based on some sound logic! With this understanding about my mindset, now you might relate to the experience which happened to me just few days ago. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Few years ago I learnt that the stock market was a casino and waste of time and energy. So, I do not play the stock market that often. In 2010 I had less than 10 transactions for the whole year. However, occasionally and randomly I check the prices of about fifty stocks on Yahoo financial site. I was following FNMA stock. Around January 18, this stock was trading around $0.32 per share. After that day the stock started to move up rapidly, on Friday Feb 4 around [/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 am[/FONT][FONT=&quot], the stock was around $0.83 per share. I got excited and I decided to buy few shares and benefit from the up swing. I visited the brokerage site to do the transaction. Right at the moment that I wanted to place my order, somebody knocked at my door, (Usually in total about 6 - 7 times a month some tenants lock out themselves and they want me to open their door. And that happens at any hours of a day.) The coincidence that this interruption happened just at the moment that I wanted to place my stock order alerted me that God is telling me not to get involved! (Please do not interpret this, that I am interjecting, that God was trying to save me few dollars!) I arrived for this assessment based on numerous similar experiences in the past. Grudgingly I accepted the interpretation which I had made about the incident, and I did not buy the stock. An hour later the stock jumped up to $0.96 per share and at the closing time the stock closed at $0.68, a real casino! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]When I saw the stock had come down to $0.68 I was happy, otherwise, all weekend I would have complained that God always prevents me from having a little bit success! However, that few dollars (gain or loss) could not make any difference in my life, or in my life style! [/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot](Because of the 10,000 characters limitation I continue onto the next post.)[/FONT]
     
  12. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    [FONT=&quot](This part is continued from the previous post.)[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]I usually write and rewrite my exchanges for these posts! And when I feel that my answers are adequate then I post them. On Feb. 10, I was ready to post my answer. In that answer I had explained, in general, the essence of God’s communication with me! (Of course, the way that I rationalized them, and not the actual hearing voice of God!) In reviewing my answer, I thought that generalized characterization could not really explain the essence of God communication that I was experiencing. I was evaluating how to mention my stock buying incident as an example, without giving a wrong impression. I knew that incident the way that I explained it earlier, it hardly could be accepted as a viable communication, that interpretation sounds more like an illusion, from a very sick mind! That story was too ridiculous and too trivial. I thought mentioning that event would not help my argument at all, instead it would diminish the essence of my argument. But, I was determined to explain the subject of God’s revelations in a simple and straight forward manner, and without any ambiguity. But I knew that story was not good enough, and it was too corny![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]On Feb 11, around [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3:10 AM[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I woke up, (every night I usually wake up once or twice, and then I usually go back to sleep. If I am not sleepy then I would watch TV until I get sleepy. I have watched a lot of good programs at these early morning hours on some PBS stations.) This morning I was not sleepy, so I turned on TV to watch something. Without changing or searching for any specific channel, the TV channel was on the station which was broadcasting a “Frontline” program. Each Frontline program is about 50 minutes long, and this episode was about “Digital Nation”. At the time that I started to watch the program around [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3:13 AM[/FONT][FONT=&quot], the program was discussing how multitasking had damaged the writing skills of the American students! The program was explaining; because of too many distractions from digital gadgets, the students were losing the ability of writing long essay, and they usually were losing their narratives from one paragraph to the next, and their writings had become fragmented. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]This peculiar Frontline program, at this weird hour, about “the effects of distractions” was so relevant to the stock transaction incident which I wanted to express as an example of God’s messages that sometimes we are fortunate to receive them and to recognize them. These two much related coincidences collectively were pointing to one comprehensive message, which I concluded that God was directing me not to get distracted and do not mess up my tranquil time. (Here I need to make a confession; with these entire clear messages that I was sure that I had received from the divine God, still I stubbornly and stupidly got involved in purchasing few shares of that stock few days later! Sometimes it is hard to resist the temptation of the material world!) [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]At first I thoughts these two related coincidences were directed at me to tell me the distractions nature of material attachment. Then I thought obsessive desires for material things also has corrosive effect on our mental health and that causes us to lose our mental freedom, which is recommended for our spiritual growth. So, the message was also helpful from this point of view! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]These two conclusions were beneficial for the tranquility of my mind and my well being. Then I realized If I had interpreted these two much related coincidences correctly, and my interpretations were not just the fragments of my active imaginations, then the essences of these two coincidences were far more significant than my original conclusions. These two much related revelations had directed me to something far more profound! If the events of our lives are choreographed by God, then the issues of our Free Will becomes much more marginal and murkier! At the time which I was debating whether to buy the stock or accepting the perceived message and not to buy the stock, I felt that I was totally free to exercise my own decision, and ignore paying any attention to my perceived message! After all my own interpretation had a lot to do with the perceived message! I simply could have made an excuse; and claimed that there was no comprehensive message! And I was not really acting against any divine recommendation! So, for sure my Free Choice was there, and I was fully aware of that. But, what about the tenant!? Was she aware of her choices when she forgot to pick up her key, and she locked herself out!? Was she in control of her faculties at that specific moment!? Because, without her scenario, the message which was getting choreographed for my enlightenment, at that specific moment, could have not been materialized! In the past, in some other situations, I had reached to the same conclusion. I feel that such a divine control is on us all the time, only occasionally we are privileged to observe their existence. Usually these revealed messages go against our personal choices and wishes! It seems intentionally the individual believer, at those special moments, is being tested to choose between his/her personal wishes versus the prescribed direction which is communicated to him/her by God! It seems that our readily acceptance of these perceived messages in those rare occasions, reflects the strength of our faith. And this sums up the extent of our “Free Will”, which affects nothing in the events of this world! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]I finished the previous paragraph on Feb 13. On Feb 14, when I was thinking about our Free Will, I thought to add the following phrase into that paragraph; “It seems where it comes to our Free Will we are less than the probe satellites which we dispatched to the surface of the Mar.” Right at that moment a simple incident alerted me not to do that! Then, it downed on me, that my conclusions regarding our “Free Will” might be still too primitive and too naïve, and this very complex issue might be way beyond my head! Last week in “Nova Science Now” program on PBS there was a segment regarding the animal intelligence, and how scientists were trying to communicate with animals. At the end of the program in his cosmic perspective, Neil Degrasse Tyson,(He is the host of the program)commented and I paraphrase; that animals have hard time to grasp some of the abstract ideas which we human are dealing with them so routinely. Then he mentioned there might be some other intelligences in the universe which their simple abstract ideas might be too difficult for us to comprehend. Then, I thought the concept of our “Free Will” might fall into the category of beyond our comprehension! Only in last few centuries Man’s logic has reached to the maturity to begin wrestling with this complex issue. It seems when it comes to our “Free Will” our known logic does not work, and we need to find a new logic outside of the box! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]These three revelations which I mentioned them in this post are the sample of the revelations which on and off I sense them, and sometimes I received them in abundance, and sometimes for months I sense nothing. As you noticed all these revelations are such “moment specific” and my own interpretations played a major role to make a sense out of them, and they just made sense to me at those specific moments! As time passes by I forget most of these incidences, only very few have some lingering affects. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]These revelations which I presented in this post, they are part of my private thoughts, which makes me uncomfortable to expose them in public, and probably they may make no sense even to many believers! And they may even find them weird and laughable! However, in my effort to express my views with clarity I thought revealing them could shade a little light about the interaction of God with us. And this sample might also give some clarity when I was talking about the mysteries of the way that the “Educated Believers” were accepting their mistake prone Holy Books as word of God. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]We only can interpret the world through the prism of our own logic which we have developed it through our training and our experiences! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]May God Bless Us All,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Unes[/FONT]
     
  13. AntEmpire

    AntEmpire Active Member

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    [FONT=&quot]I totally agree with this assessment. Isn’t this assessment true with every thought that we have? Aren’t we using the same neurons for all our analyses; scientific or otherwise!? Then, why do we think that our scientific conclusions are valid and legitimate, and our spiritual and supernatural thoughts somehow belong to some crackpots!? [/FONT]

    yes. more or less. Personally i feel that our personal theories on spirituality are just as valid as our personal theories on science.

    what if your vision of the world leads you to believe in your vision of god?

    I was referring to cognitive bias. If someone has a conclusion to a question before the answer has fully been sought out, then the that person will accept information that supports their conclusion. If they come across information that counters their conclusion, they will ignore it, or find the source to be biased, or even subconsciously alter the information they received to fit into the world view they have. This is why it is hard for creationists to see evidence for evolution, and vis virsa


     
  14. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    [FONT=&quot]AntEmpire,
    Our scientific discoveries has revealed to us this universe is structured with extremely favorable properties. And it seems such integrated harmony in the properties, become even extremer as our knowledge expands deeper. These favorable properties within the structure of the universe have produced life and self awareness. So, this system which possesses such extremely favorable integrated properties indicates of the existence of an original design. To me this conclusion is self-evidenced. And I have not tried to fit my answer to justify my conclusion before hand, because for a long time I was agnostic! [/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]I agree that our judgments are the prisoner of our cognitive bias.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] I wonder how anybody can avoid that! We try to eliminate such biases, but to what extend we can succeed is all a subjective matter. We form our individual views, based on our own experiences and prejudices, and it is quite possible that our views might be dominated with many illusions. But we do not consider them as delusional! However, you might allege that my belief in the existence of God does fall in the realm of the delusional! I acknowledge, that all my logic and the coincidences which make me believe in the existence of God, they do arise from the construct of my mind. But my observation regarding the behavior of the “Educated Believers” is not an imaginary phenomenon! I am not claiming that I am hearing a voice that nobody else can hear it! This phenomenon exists in the world, outside of my mind, which it is quite noticeable, it is tangible, and it can be studied by anybody who is interested. So, my belief regarding the existence of God is not purely the product of my imagination, it does relate my thoughts to the observation of the outside world, which can be verified by anybody who question the objectivity of my conclusions. (Of course, as I mentioned before, our conclusions regarding the behaviors of life, can not be unanimous! This characteristic arises because the intrinsic properties of the sub-atomic particles are based on a statistical model. And that creates the diversity of life, and diversity in our opinions.) [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Let me make another observation; the easy way that many people fall prey to various religious or spiritual cults, indicates where it comes to our religion and spiritual beliefs we have a soft spot in our intelligence, and we become very gullible and naive! This strange and widespread vulnerability goes against the development of the human intelligence! I wonder, why that is! This vulnerability can not be explained by cult members’ yearning for their warm childhood memories. This black box for yearning exists deep within our individual thoughts.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Let me make another observation! I wonder why a modern man believes that some ancient people had closer and more direct contact with God!? Certainty, compare to the modern Man, they were not intelligent enough to absorb and appreciate the significance of such blessings! (They were not intelligent enough, because, according to Moses story, how many times God had to demonstrate his power to them in order those primitive people to accept his divinity!?) And why the “Red Sea Parting”, this self-evidenced fiction, has stirred the soul of Man to this extent? Even though [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the “Red Sea Parting” could not convince some Israelites at that time, who witnessed that magnificent miracle first hand, but it has captivated the minds of vast numbers of people for over 3000 years! This is very strange that even in modern times many archeologists from many research centers have tried extensively to trace the Israelites migration from Egypt, and none of these renown scholars recognized this obvious hoax which is embedded in this story! This is the genuine miracle which can be presented as [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the evidence[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that something vividly bizarre has been happening right within our conscious mind for over 3000 years! And that can be observed and be analyzed without much ambiguity. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]May God Bless Us All,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Unes[/FONT]
     
    #54 Unes, Feb 28, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2011
  15. AntEmpire

    AntEmpire Active Member

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    [quote][FONT=&quot]Our scientific discoveries has revealed to us this universe is structured with extremely favorable properties and it seems such integrated harmony in the properties, become even extremer as our knowledge expands deeper. [/quote][/FONT]

    I would have to disagree with this.

    [FONT=&quot][quote] These favorable properties within the structure of the universe have produced life and self awareness. So, this system which possesses such extremely favorable integrated properties indicates of the existence of an original design. To me this conclusion is self-evidenced. And I have not tried to fit my answer to justify my conclusion before hand, because for a long time I was agnostic! [/quote][/FONT]

    If this or previous/alternate/parallel/other universes didn't have beings who were aware of it, it would be as if it didn't exist.

    It is my opinion that (the appearance of) order does not dictate a design/designer. I could give you examples of appearance of design in nature, but you already believe this universe is designed, so anything that is natural and looks designed would only help your running theory :p

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]


    Well there are plenty of ways to prevent, or lessen cognitive bias. It is appart of my job, I work in military intelligence, so i was trained to keep personal biases from letting the command miss something i thought i already knew.

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    People long to belong. People want to feel special, people desire there to be more to this world than simply what is infront of us. (I don't believe in god, or even supernatural, but i believe in other dimensions, realms, universes, levels of reality.)
    Although i am an atheist I am also an agnostic, and a spiritual man.

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    Well, maybe its because (if the bible were true) god actually did things on a regular basis? Ancient man 30,000 years ago and earlier were just as intelligent as man today.

    Note word: Story.

    [FONT=&quot]If it is self-evident that it is a work of fiction.... why're you talking about it like you believe it isnt[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I have heard a few times from different sources that the Red sea parting was a typo in translation from the Reed Sea, which is the northern part of the red sea, which a strong breeze could blow and allow the Israelites to pass while the chariots would all be stuck in the mud behind them. [/FONT]


    A hoax, a evidently fictious story, and a genuine miracle??? At the same time?

    And you want to use it as evidence??? ha!
     
  16. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    [FONT=&quot]AntEmpire,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Even though you expressed “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]order does not dictate a design/designer[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”, but interestingly your examples of natural designs would have led you to the opposite conclusion! And that is where I am![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]I agree with your first statement. And somehow your first statement complements your second concept! In my logic, a chaotic structure which lacks any internal property which favors the formation of a well-structured design is doomed to remain chaotic. This is the well-designed property within the members of the chaotic structure which directs the chaotic structure into a well organized structure. We can witness this idea in a revolution in a society. If all the members of a revolution, lack the art of the leadership, then the revolution will remain chaotic. This is the leadership who manages the chaotic situation, and directs it to form a new order. So, a revolution without a leader is doomed to remain chaotic, and a chaotic world will remain chaotic, unless there is a property within the system which guides the disorderly particles into some orderly forms. [/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]Cleary the condensed overview of my thoughts lacked the coherent logic, which they triggered such a well deserved rejection. This is a very important and revealing EVIDENCE. Here, I would like to try to explain that EVIDENCE in more details. Let us see if that would make any different in your opinions!? [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]First of all the argument which you made about the northern part of the Red Sea, from the topographical point of view that might be true, but that does not explain why all the Israelites, women and children, passed through the area and survived, and all the Egyptian army, which consisted of strong young soldiers, they all were drowned! In the Movie Ten Commandment, staring Charlton Heston, wasn’t the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Red Sea[/FONT][FONT=&quot] departed by a strong wind!? Storms do make big waves on the sea, but they do not make the sea to depart! It is amazing how the movies influence our basic cognitions to this extent! Besides, this suggestion does not match with any of the extensive archeological investigations in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Desert[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Because of deserts’ arid climate, all human’s waste and garbage does preserve in deserts. No such evidences were ever found in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Desert[/FONT][FONT=&quot] regarding a large number of people living there for forty years. Also, this suggestion does contradict with the Old Testament’s account! In Moses Story in the Holy Bible, the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Red Sea[/FONT][FONT=&quot] actually departed, that is why it is called a miracle! We should either accept the story the way it is written, or we should reject it altogether! Altering its contents does not serve anybody’s interest! And that is, if we are only after the truth, and we do not have any misleading agenda! Moses Story the way that it is told is conveying the idea of the existence of a powerful God, who preformed amazing miracles, to show off his power. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Similar to your suggestion, few years ago, I read another story that some archeologists had found [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mount Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Saudi Arabia[/FONT][FONT=&quot]! The undercurrent connotation which the migration might have happened through the northern part of the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Red Sea[/FONT][FONT=&quot], or the existence of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mount Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Saudi Arabia[/FONT][FONT=&quot], hints to convert a section of this fictional story into a plausible historical event! And the intention for these peculiar attempts are; if there is an evidence for a section of the story to be factual, then the whole story somehow get validated! And we innocently are promoting that genius deceptive plot! I object and resent to be conned by these deceptive suggestions! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Now, let me explain in some details why I believe that Moses Story is a fiction, pure and simple. The trust of my argument hinges upon the behaviors of “those Israelites, who witnessed those magnificent miracles first hand,”. In any story in order to construct the best factual scenario we need to hear the testimonies of the eye-witnesses. This is the routine in our court system, in our news media, and in our official public hearings. And then we examine the physical evidences to draw a comprehensive conclusion. In the case of Moses Story there is no physical evidence, and the geography of the surrounding lands suggests, the only way that the story could be a factual event is that; the Red Sea truly must had departed exactly the way that its author explains. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Now, regarding Moses Story, were there any eye-witnesses to testify about those events? Of course there were; the Israelites who made that great migration are our eye-witnesses. They witnessed all those events first hand. There is no hearsay for these people! They witnessed all those events personally. Now, did those Israelites give any testimony regarding those events? Yes they did. Their actions and their behaviors were recorded right in the Story. By examining the actions and the behaviors of those Israelites we can construct a reasonable idea about the nature of the Moses Story. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]On top of all those fascinating miracles which the Israelites had witnessed in [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Egypt[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and personally they had experienced the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Red Sea[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Departing, the following are some of the additional miracles which those Israelites witnessed personally in Sinai Deserts. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot](Because of the 10,000 characters limitation I continue onto the next post.)[/FONT]
     
    #56 Unes, Mar 22, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  17. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    [FONT=&quot](This part is continued from the previous post.)[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “I am going to rain bread from heaven for you, and the people will go out and gather a certain amount each day, . . .[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]16:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And as Aaron spoke to the whole community of the Israelites, they looked toward the desert, and there the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]16:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] . . [/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Tell them, ‘During the evening you will eat flesh, and in the morning you will be satisfied with bread, . . [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]16:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And in the evening the quail came up and covered the camp; and in the morning a layer of dew was all around the camp. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]16:15[/FONT][FONT=&quot] When the Israelites saw it, they said to one another, “What is it?” because they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, “It is the bread that the Lord has given you for food. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]16:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And Moses said to them, “No one is to keep any of it until morning.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]16:20[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But they did not listen to Moses, and some kept part of it until morning. It was full of worms and began to stink. And Moses was angry with them. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]16:21[/FONT][FONT=&quot] So they gathered it each morning, each person according to what he could eat; and when the sun got hot, it melted. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]16:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And on the sixth day they gathered twice as much food, two omers per person;. . . [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]16:24[/FONT][FONT=&quot] So they put it aside until the morning, just as Moses had commanded, and it did not stink, nor was there any worm in it.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]17:5 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go over before the people; take with you some of the elders of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Israel[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and take in your hand your rod with which you struck the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Nile[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and go. 17:6 I will be standing before you there on the rock in Horeb, and you will strike the rock, and water will come out of it so that the people may drink.” And Moses did so in plain view of the elders of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Israel[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]19:1 In [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the third month[/FONT][FONT=&quot] after the Israelites went out from the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]land[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Egypt[/FONT][FONT=&quot], on the very day, they came to the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Desert[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]19:9 Then the Lord said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and will always believe in you.” And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]19:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and make them wash their clothes [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and be ready by the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mount Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in the sight of all the people.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]19:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And on the third day in the morning there were thunders and lightning and a dense cloud on the mountain, and the sound of a very loud horn; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and all the people who were in the camp trembled.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]19:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And Moses brought the people out of the camp [/FONT][FONT=&quot]to meet God,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and they took their place at the lower end of the mountain. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Now [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mount Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot] was completely covered with smoke because the Lord had descended on it in fire;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and its smoke went up like the smoke of a great furnace, and the whole mountain shook greatly. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot] When the sound of the horn grew louder and louder,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Moses was speaking and God was answering him with a voice.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]19:20[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And the Lord came down on [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mount Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot], on the top of the mountain; and the Lord summoned Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]19:24[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And the Lord said to him, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Go, get down. And you will come up, and Aaron with you;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but do not let the priests and the people force their way through to come up to the Lord, lest he break through against them.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19:25[/FONT][FONT=&quot] So Moses went down to the people and spoke to them. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]20:18 And all the people were seeing the thunderings and the lightning, and heard the sound of the horn, and the mountain smoking—and when they people saw it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]they trembled[/FONT][FONT=&quot] with fear and kept their distance.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]20:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And [/FONT][FONT=&quot]they said to Moses, “You speak to us and we will listen,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]but do not let God speak with us, lest we die.”[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]20:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The Lord said to Moses: “Thus you will say to the Israelites: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]‘You yourselves have seen that I have spoken with you from heaven.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]20:23[/FONT][FONT=&quot] You must not make alongside me gods of silver, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]nor make gods of gold[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for yourselves.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]24:9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Israel[/FONT][FONT=&quot] went up, 24:10 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and they saw the God of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Israel[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and there was under his feet something like a pavement made of sapphire, and clear like the heaven itself.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot](Because of the 10,000 characters limitation I continue onto the next post.)[/FONT]
     
  18. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    [FONT=&quot](This part is continued from the previous post.)[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]24:18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud when he went up to the mountain; and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Exodus 32:1[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] When the people saw that Moses delayed in coming down from the mountain, they gathered together around Aaron and said to him, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"Get up, make us gods that will go before us.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] As for this fellow Moses, the man who brought us up from the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]land[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Egypt[/FONT][FONT=&quot], we do not know what has become of him!"[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Exodus 32:1 is a strange verse both in its content and its tone! There was no cause, or any justification for this strange Israelite rebellion. Absolutely none! On contrary all the evidences are pointing to the implausibility of this unacceptable rebellion. And the damning evidences are as follows: [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]a) Those Israelites loved Jehovah, and they were obedient to Jehovah, even when Jehovah was harsh on them and he was punishing them bitterly. Israelites had long history worshipping this Almighty Jehovah, and that was the hallmark of their distinct characteristic. And that is the very reason that they had labeled themselves as “The Chosen People”! So, all twelve tribes of Israel unanimously rebelling against Jehovah, at this point of time which Almighty Jehovah was actively supporting them and was providing for them is extremely unlikely! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]b) And the story even gets more bizarre! These crazy Israelites wanted to abandon their newly found freedom, and they wished to go back to the Pharaoh slavery!? Perhaps they were missing the Egyptian’s lashes! This suggestion that these Israelites wanted to abandon their newly found freedom and they preferred harsh condition of their past slavery is extremely unlikely! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]c) From Man’s point of view, the actions of the Almighty Jehovah in the Moses Story, were exactly the actions of an Ideal God, which Man always has hoped for, and has dreamed of! That to have a helping God in his side, to help him with all his problems and hardships, and now that those Israelites had such a helping God in their side, they wanted to replace him, with a Golden Cafe!!!??? Oh, come on! This is too bizarre to even be considered! But, why these Israelites were asking for this swap!? And, for what reason!? Almighty Jehovah already had proven to them that he was far superior to Pharaoh and his Gods. I can not find the right words to express my utmost disbelief of this unbelievable rebellion! I do not know which one of the following scenarios is more plausible; either those Israelites were dumb beyond our imagination, that they unanimously considered to make such a swap, or, we are that Gullible to accept this story as a historical event!? I doubt it that any reasonable person could entertain any of these two possibilities as a viable scenario! The alternative to these two implausible scenarios is so simple, we have to realize that the story is a fiction and a hoax. And the author of the story at this point had goofed, big time! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]d) And this bizarre Israelites rebellion happened only five months after they had seen the Total Humiliation of Mighty Pharaoh, and the Red Sea Departing, and just few weeks after they had trembled in the presence of Almighty Jehovah! And this unanimous Israelites rebellion happened while they were still eating the meat and the bread which Almighty Jehovah was providing for them every day! What more evidence do we need to recognize that this scenario was impossible!? [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]All these evidences are pointing to one thing; the story is a fiction and a hoax. And the author of the story had made a major blunder at the rebellion episode. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]I believe that the author of Moses Story, might have been a priest, who wanted to introduce the invisible Jehovah to people, then, he came up with this fascinating story of the battle between Mighty Pharaoh,(who was the most powerful man of that time,) and the invisible Almighty Jehovah. And Almighty Jehovah demolished and humiliated mighty Pharaoh with his unlimited power. However, the author did not end the story at the epic battle of the Red Sea Departing, he continued with the plight of the Israelites in the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Desert[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. To me all the other miracles which he invented in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Desert[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are plausible miracles that can be accepted without much argument. But the Israelites’ rebellion, after all those amazing miracles, and especially after hearing and meeting Almighty Jehovah, is absolutely an impossible scenario, which only a totally retarded person, who lacks any mental comprehension, might nod at it![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]As you see all the evidences which indicates the falsehood of the story is provided right within the story! We do not need to investigate anywhere else to realize the fictional nature of this story.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] This means that this is a self-evidenced hoax! We only need to read the story very carefully, and use a little bit of common sense, because this hoax is too obvious to be missed![/FONT]

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    [FONT=&quot](Because of the 10,000 characters limitation I continue onto the next post.)[/FONT]
     
    #58 Unes, Mar 22, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  19. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    [FONT=&quot](This part is continued from the previous post.)[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Now, if you are satisfied with my proof regarding that Moses Story is a fiction and a hoax, please continue with the following ramification of that conclusion. Otherwise you should not bother with the following section. Since, the following section is based upon accepting that Moses Story is an obvious hoax. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In this section I am not talking just about the “Educated Believers”! I am talking about all the intelligent people who read Moses Story and they did not suspect the embedded hoax which was within the story! And this includes all those preachers and scholars who are dissecting every word in the Holy Bible to the max! Also, I am talking especially about those Atheists who have been trying hard to prove the falsehood of the Abrahamic Faiths, and yet they failed to recognize this vivid evidence which was right in front of them, and it could have supported and validated their arguments. Also, I am talking about all those renowned researchers who have been trying so hard to decipher the mysteries of this Extremely Peculiar Story, and some of those researchers have done some archeological investigations on all parts of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sinai[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Desert[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and yet they did not suspect this obvious evidence which was staring at them right in the text! Also, for many believers who read the fascinated Moses Story for many centuries and they did not suspect this obvious hoax! And this includes all Jewish people, Christians, and Muslims. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Now, the question arises why such an obvious hoax eluted the investigations of so many people for so long!? This is a bizarre scenario which could not be dismissed so causally! Nobody can find an easy escape out of this failure! This is a universal and common failure which can not be blamed on anybody else, except on our own Gullibility! The extreme extent of this Gullibility looks strange and mysterious! This strange and widespread Gullibility looks so implausible, and yet it did happen! This weird implausibility points to the miraculous nature of the Story! Since this obvious hoax has eluded our presumably conscious mind in this mysterious manner, we can confidently conclude that this strange hoax was a miracle! This is the actual definition of a miracle. And this miracle was experienced with every one of us personally! No hearsay or dependence on anybody else’s testimony, for this personal experience! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Simply, getting fooled by such an obvious hoax, does reveal the extent of our cognition and our conscious mind! This common experience has been communicated with every one of us individually! This miracle reveals, how our conscious mind may have been manipulated throughout all these years! This conclusion is hard to digest, since we can not detect any such influence in our free and inquisitive mind. In similar experience, we do not suspect four dizzying and wild motions which we are subjected to, on the surface of this earth, all the time. It seems similarly our state of mind is subjected to this consciousness background, and occasionally we get inspirations which direct us to certain discoveries, knowledge, and enlightenment. Of course the diversity which exists within our individual minds and in our individual experiences, do intrigue us to many different conclusions! And through these differences our intelligence advances. [/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]I disagree. Intelligence is on the march. The same way that an ape is more intelligent than a fish,(because, physically, an ape can handle a tool and a fish can not.) a well educated person is far more intelligent than an Indian in the Amazon Jungle. A deeper knowledge is the sign of a more advanced intelligence. Basically, this is the exact way that the intelligence is defined! The following is the definition of intelligence from Dictionary.com [/FONT]

    1.
    capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.
    2.
    manifestation of a high mental capacity: He writes with intelligence and [FONT=&quot]wit. [/FONT]3. the faculty of understanding.
    4.
    knowledge of an event, circumstance, etc., received or imparted; [FONT=&quot]news; information. [/FONT]
    5.
    the gathering or distribution of information, especially secret information
    . . . .

    [FONT=&quot]Just by the knowledge that the modern science has provided us, our understanding and our comprehension of God is far deeper than the Man’s knowledge of God in the dark ages! In the dark ages Man was occupied with many misconceptions! A person in the dark ages had hard time to grasp the rotation of earth, and now a ten years old child absorbs that concept with such an ease![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]May God Bless Us All,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Unes[/FONT]
     
    #59 Unes, Mar 22, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  20. clerick

    clerick Cleric

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    My faculty of reason is my only weapon against God if the Judeo-Christian Bible is the standard this God is the most vicious egotistical monstrosity ever to exist, Lucifer as a being that told him to g stuff himself and his followers the only light. This light includes reason to treat God as a moral being and asking would a just God that is all good etc. do things that he did or ordered to do in the Bible?

    To believe in God, to understand God is to also dispise God and embrace opposing God.