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God and Reason

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by Unes, Feb 28, 2009.

  1. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Jaareshiah,

    These are fascinating questions which cover great deal of human’s spirituality. Like many other people I too am interested to find out some plausible answers for these fundamental questions! As you pointed out without having the answers to those core questions it seems our existence is meaningless and void. I do agree with that assessment. And maybe the believers subconsciously are manufacturing their vivid experiences of deity in order to avoid that damning void!

    Regardless of the tangible effects of our individual experiences of God, the notion of believing in God is a powerful psychological remedy to pull us out of that trap of being a void, a worthless, or having no purpose for our existence!
    However, based on my own experiences I honestly have to reject the notion that this is my active imagination which is imagining the illusions of experiencing God’s influences in my life. Until it is proven to me that this is the case, then I have to rely on my very subjective notion of God, which is altering and forming my views, and directing my life. The believers do experience the deity as something tangible, even though that experience is so incoherent, so illusive, and highly inconsistent!

    If we do not believe in spiritual aspect of life then we are denying any complexity beyond the functions of the material world. And that view is fatally unproductive and it does limit the boundaries of our wild imaginations! Our spiritual activities are too important that it could be brushed off, just because so far our quests have not produced any credible answer for our scientific analysis. But, in my previous posts I did provide a plausible tangible phenomenon which addressed this scientific issue, but apparently that answer did not convince anybody!


    * * * * * * * * * * * *


    It is true that we do not know the answers to the mentioned questions and many similar questions regarding our existence and how our existence would be connected to God. But, by not knowing the answers to those questions we can not turn around and suggest that all our efforts in this field are in vain! Let us review one similar puzzle which we had to deal with it in the past. We had similar frustration regarding the nature of the heavenly bodies, their motions, and their relations with our existence. We had almost the same magnitude of difficulties understanding these objects, and these objects had almost the same significance in our thoughts. These heavenly bodies were staring at us day and night and we intuitively knew that somehow these objects were playing a major role in our existence, but we had no clue of how we were connected to these objects. Many theories were devised trying to explain our relationships to these objects, and now we know that all of those ideas and theories were flatly wrong and utterly illusional!!! Human knowledge in any fields of our studies is accumulated in small doses! Throughout many millennia, with persistent human’s enquiries and his constant analyses of the heavenly bodies combined with meticulous observations and recording of those observations and analyses, finally human being cracked that extremely difficult puzzle to a satisfactory conclusion. And we have seen that the answers were far beyond the ancient Man’s wildest imagination!!! And still such observations are revealing many new phenomena and insights which we had no clue of their existence and their roles in our formation. Similarly the idea of God persistently has been around in various forms and views, and for some strange reason it seems we can not shrug it off out of the minds of the believers. The idea of God stubbornly perseveres even when many of those perceived notions of Gods are proven to be flatly inconsistence, utterly baseless, and totally illogical!

    Now, let me pose a question; if we have such a hard time understanding and explaining the functions of human’s brain, and many other phenomena in this Universe, don’t you think that we are still too limited to understand the complexities of God and his purpose for creating this Universe!? In analysis of any subject it is essential (prudent) to be mindful of our limitations, and we need to adjust our expectation accordingly. At this time the mysteries of God might be way beyond the scope of our imaginations. And as a result we have to be mindful of our limitation and pursue these discussions calmly, patiently, with an open mind, and with perseverance. We have no other choice in this matter! At least our past experience regarding understanding of the heavenly bodies has shown us the merits of that approach.

    I intuitively sense with our updated knowledge and an improved intelligence we will experience God in a more solid and irrefutable manner. In that phase we might find out the answers to all those core spiritual questions in a plausible and a comprehensive manner. It is quite plausible that our very diverse experiences of God, from strong beliefs to the hard core atheism, could be by design! These debates do strengthen our logic and expand our intelligence. However, we may participate in these challenging debates with some notion of frustration and disappointments, as you expressed it: “we are just on a treadmill that goes nowhere or continue to go in circles, except to the grave.” But, isn’t it better to be appreciative and being thankful for the opportunities to explore the possibilities!

    So far, at least our ideas about the heavenly bodies and along with that the location of the Heaven has been changed. And that change has a profound effect in the theologies of the established religions! So, claiming that these discussions are going around circle is not that accurate! We are just too impatient and we expect to know the answers right now! Let us entertain an imaginary scenario; that 2000 years ago a scholar had suggested that Earth rotates around its own axis once every 24 hours, and it orbits around the Sun once a year. Such a theory without the invention of telescope and all the other scientific knowledge; things like gravity, energy, and the properties of lights, would have been of little use. So, knowing just the structure of the solar system without the other sophisticated technologies, we would have not been that appreciative about the complexities of the Universe the way that we are appreciating the Universe right now. Actually similar scenario happened in history for real! 2400 years ago Democritus explained that matter was composed of small particles that he called them "atoms". And that was it! No other related benefits could be driven out of that very in-depth theory! Similarly, the theory of God’s existence has not produced any scientific insights, and it seems it is because philosophically and technologically we are not ready yet!

    Interesting enough the benefits of our scientific discoveries are realized, only when we acquire the necessary technical capabilities to rip their fruits! And that is something that we need to be mindful of! Our understanding of God is in its infancy! We are beginning to understand the functions of human brain, and the nature of our consciousness and our soul. I sense there is a connection between our soul and God. And that connection will be appreciated properly when our intelligence reaches to the necessary sophistication in order to be able to digest the nuances of those interactions.

    May God Bless Us All,
    Unes
     
  2. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah Member

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    Unes,

    The answers to the three questions (1) Where did I come from ?, (2) Why am I here ?, and (3) Where am I going ? is readily found in the Bible. (1) Where did I come from ? Genesis 1 provides a brief outline of the earth's preparation for man and of the beginning of mankind's history, from day one, with the division of day and night, to the creation of man at the end of day 6. Genesis 2:7 says: "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul."

    The account continues: "Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in E´den, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad."(Gen 2:8, 9)

    Hence, we learn God's name - Jehovah - and that he formed man and placed him in a beautiful garden with "every tree desirable to one's sight" called the Garden of Eden.(Gen 2:15, Eden literally means "garden of pleasure")

    Mankind's history therefore began in a "garden of pleasure", Eden, and that it was a delight without question. The prospect lay before Adam and Eve of a never ending life, and only death is brought before them upon disobedience.(Gen 2:16, 17) The entire earth was to become a "garden of pleasure" for Adam and his offspring. That this will be a reality, Jesus reaffirmed this, telling the evil-doer to his side: "Truly, I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."(Luke 23:43, paradise means "parklike garden", Greek pa·ra´dei·sos)

    (2) Why am I here ? Jehovah God created man to thoroughly enjoy everlasting life on a Paradise earth, for it was designed purposely for us by him. Every feature of the earth, from the wide variety of foods to the beautiful sunsets, majestic waterfalls and bountifulness animal and sea life, is for those who love "Jehovah God with (their) whole heart, and with (their) whole soul and with (their) whole mind."(Matt 22:37) Life under God's making will be fulfilling, not distasteful for so many today, with all the increasing problems that each of us must face today.

    (3) Where am I going ? David wrote that "the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." Never has the earth had an "abundance of peace", except before Adam's rebellion in the Garden of Eden.(Gen 3:1-7)

    Jesus reaffirmed what David said, saying: "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth."(Matt 5:5) The book of Revelation brings this home, providing a satisfying hope for the future: "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away. And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.”(Rev 21:3-5) Thus, Jehovah God will restore what Adam lost for us, the hope of enjoying life without end on a Paradise earth, with an "abundance of peace".

     
  3. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Dear Jaareshiah,
    If we are supposed to accept, just based on their self promoting claims, that the Holy Books are word of God, then, regarding the end time and identity of Jesus the Holy Koran gives a very different story than that of the Holy Bible. Then, how can we justify that the Holy Bible is right and the Holy Koran is wrong?

    Muslims say that the Holy Koran is word of God, how do you tell them that it is not?
    Then, I can turn around and use that exact answer, and tell you that the Holy Bible is not word of God either! At least for that point you should accept your own explanations!

    So, please do not bother me with the merits of the Holy Bible material. In this thread I am not interested at all to repeat those old and tired debates!

    May God Bless Us All,
    Unes
     
    #23 Unes, Nov 25, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2010
  4. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah Member

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    Unes,

    Only the Bible provides the accurate details as to where we came from, not the Koran. Only the Bible gives the necessary information as to why we are here and where mankind is headed, not the Koran. Only the Bible establishes God's original purpose for the earth and how he will restore it to the paradisaic condition as in the Garden of Eden by means of a heavenly government.

    Without the Bible, everyone would be clueless, even as to what God's name is or who he is, for though through nature we can see evidence of a creator, but not his name nor his establishment of a heavenly government designed to remove all human governments and greedy commercialism in order for his eternal purpose of a Paradise earth to be completed.
     
  5. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Dear Jaareshiah,
    So, according to your logic, if we present these explanations to Muslims, they should be convinced that the Holy Koran is not word of God.

    Now, if I prove that Holy Koran is more credible than Holy Bible, then you should accept that none of these Holy Books can be word of God.

    Here is the proof:

    Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me. 20:4 You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on earth under it, or that is in the water below. 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God,

    In Muslim’s daily pray, which the verses come from the Holy Koran, it is clearly expressed that Muslims worship God only, and Nobody and Nothing else, and this is in exact harmony with the God’s Commandment. But Christians are worshiping Trinity; God, Son, and Holy Ghost. The Trinity is violating the God’s Commandment to its core! Now, any intelligent and impartial observer would readily acknowledge that at least on this point the Holy Koran is much more credible than the Holy Bible.

    Now, by this proof, I hope to have you as a librated individual, that you observe these Holy Books with a new perspective, and you do not allege that these faulty documents are words of God. God is the ultimate in knowledge and wisdom. This was not God who revealed these full of mistakes documents. These were some lousy prophets who claimed these documents as words of God! This is the worst sin that the established religions are committing by alleging that these naive and primitive documents are words of God! And this sin is one of the causes of the tragedy of Human’s divide. No wonder why Man is getting punished so severely for committing this sin! Committing this sin has caused enormous grief and miseries for humanity. Man instead of uniting to glorify God, He has been divided to curse each other’s beliefs! Such a tragedy for our intelligence and the triumph of the stupidity and ignorance! May God dam the people who are not using their God’s gifted intelligence, to examine the facts and to acknowledge the truth!

    May God Bless Us All,
    Unes
     
    #25 Unes, Nov 27, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010
  6. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah Member

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    Unes,

    The Bible does not teach a trinity. It is the churches of Christendom that have distorted what the Bible says. You are absolutely right that "the Trinity is violating ....God's commandments to the core." The Bible teaches that there is only "one true God" of which Enoch walked (Gen 5:22) and who was in the lineage that eventually led to Abraham. Muslims accept Abraham as a prophet of God. At Genesis 17:1, it says that "when A´bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah (Hebrew יהוה ) appeared to A´bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless. And I will give my covenant between me and you, that I may multiply you very, very much.”

    Thus, the "one true God" is Jehovah and of which Abraham was a loyal servant, even calling the place where he offered his son Isaac Je·ho´vah-ji´reh (Hebrew, Yehwah´ yir·’eh´) Only the Bible establishes Jehovah as the true God, not the Koran. The churches have twisted what the Bible really teaches. Jehovah's Witnesses recognize Jehovah as the "one true God" that is not part of a trinity.

    Only the Bible reveals Jehovah's eternal purpose for mankind and the earth, that, David, as one of Abraham's descendants said some three thousand years ago: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."(Ps 37:29)

    The Bible is indeed the "word of God." But, it needs to be realized that what the churches speak is not the truth, but rather falsehoods. When one examines the Bible, not through the eyes of the churches, but sincerely, then the Bible's meaning can become known, that Jehovah God purposed for a paradise earth, with those loyal to him living on it forever.

    That this will be reality, Jehovah himself says: "For just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, and seed is actually given to the sower and bread to the eater, so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it."(Isa 55:10,11)

    Jehovah God is not responsible for the multitude of "Christian" religions that have caused so much bloodshed on the earth. He did not establish them, but rather these are a result of deviation from the "one true God." He established only one true religion. God has set an appointed time to remove all these so-called "Christian" religions from the earth, never to exist again, that is seen in the last book of the Bible, Revelation, with only his one true religion remaining on the earth. Thus, it is a matter of great importance to see for yourself just who the true God is.
     
  7. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Dear Jaareshiah,
    I am glad that you also acknowledged the fatal error which exists at the heart of Christianity. Paradoxically the Christian Churches consider themselves as part of the school of monotheism!

    Now, regarding Jehovah and Old Testament, there are a lot of weird stories in the Old Testament. And the story of Jacob wrestling with God tops them all!

    Genesis 32:24 So Jacob was left alone. Then a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 32:25 When the man saw that he could not defeat Jacob, he struck the socket of his hip, so the socket of Jacob’s hip was dislocated while he wrestled with him.

    32:26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” “I will not let you go,” Jacob replied, “unless you bless me.” 32:27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” He answered, “Jacob.” 32:28 “No longer will your name be Jacob,” the man told him, "but Israel, because you have fought with God and with men and have prevailed.”

    32:29 Then Jacob asked, “Please tell me your name.” “Why do you ask my name?” the man replied. Then he blessed Jacob there. 32:30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, explaining, “Certainly I have seen God face to face and have survived.”

    I wonder how any intelligent person could even consider such a possibility, and yet alone to believe in it!!! This bizarre story is beyond the realm of my wildest imagination!

    Apparently this Jehovah, with this kind of limitation, is satisfying all your spiritual needs. And that is the level of your intellect! But that is what you want to believe and I have nothing to say about that. However, I need to emphasize that nobody in their right mind can ever accept that Mighty God wrestled with a mortal man, and for what purpose I might ask!? And he also failed to defeat the mortal man! Maybe Jehovah was too old to be able to defeat such a strong young man! Only a certain weird people with a sick ego can take such story to their hearts!

    May God Bless Us All,
    Unes
     
    #27 Unes, Nov 30, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2010
  8. horiturk

    horiturk Assyrian Devil

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    when people make God they give him human emotions and traits,at this point God becomes schizophrenic and irrational
     
  9. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah Member

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    Hello Unes,

    The Biblical account at Genesis 32 is seen by some as Jacob wrestling with God. However, Jacob did not wrestle with God, but rather with an angel of God, for Hosea 12:2-4 says: "And Jehovah has a legal case with Judah, even to hold an accounting against Jacob according to his ways; according to his dealings he will repay him. n the belly he seized his brother by the heel, and with his dynamic energy he contended with God. And he kept contending with an angel and gradually prevailed." The angel only contended with Jacob, knocking his "thigh socket...out of place."(Gen 32:25) There was no real wrestling, for an angel has the power to destroy tens of thousands of people. At Isaiah 37, an angel of Jehovah God wiped out 185,000 soldiers of King Sennacherib in one night.(Isa 37:36)

    Because the angel was a representative of the one true God, Jehovah, Jacob said that he had "contended with God", and as a result of this contending, was given the name Israel, meaning "Contender with God", for he was seeking a blessing from God.(Gen 32:26) When an ambassador (or major representative) of the US speaks in another country, he speaks for the United States and therefore it is spoken of as the United States addressing this particular nation, such as the Secretary of State, Hilary Clinton, or Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates.

    Thus, Jehovah God sends forth angels that speak in his name, as an envoy. In the Bible, at Psalms 103:20, it says: "Bless Jehovah, O you angels of his, mighty in power, carrying out his word." Angels are God's representative, speaking "his word." Another account that shows an angel speaking for Jehovah God, is Exodus 3, whereby Moses, a descendant of Abraham, was grazing sheep at Horeb, near the lower part of present day Saudi Arabia. There, an angel makes a thornbush to look as if it is on fire, causing Moses to go closer for an inspection: "Then Jehovah's angel appeared to him in a flame of fire"(Ex 3:2) The angel now calls out:: "Moses, Moses". The account, however, says that "when Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush."(Ex 3:4) Hence, angels speak for Jehovah, even being portrayed as him personally.

    The name Jehovah has a special meaning, for it is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Hebrew verb ha·wah´ (become); meaning “He Causes to Become”. At Exodus 3 again, Jehovah reveals the meaning of his name, for at verse 14, it says: "At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’” Hence, Jehovah's name means that he will become whatever he needs to be in order to accomplish his everlasting purpose. As the online Hebrew and Greek interlinear, Scripture4all reads literally: "I shall become who I am becoming."

    Jehovah then tells Moses: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."(Ex 3:15)

    Jehovah God has no limitations, for by his power he created the universe. Proverbs 3:19, 20 says: "Jehovah himself in wisdom founded the earth. He solidly fixed the heavens in discernment. By his knowledge the watery deeps themselves were split apart, and the cloudy skies keep dripping down light rain." All life on earth is a result of Jehovah creating it, with Genesis 1 giving a brief overview over the course of six "creative" days, with each "creative " day being several thousand years long.
     
  10. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    [FONT=&quot]Dear Jaareshiah,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I read all your arguments very carefully, I hope you do the same! From many different aspects there are major flaws within all your reasoning:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]You are saying even though Jacob contended with an “Angel of God”, but he was given the name [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Israel[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which means "Contender with God". Isn’t this a clear deception by itself!? Should we accept such deception from a book which it is claimed to be the ultimate authority in Truth and Morality?[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]You are claiming the Holy Bible is filled with many similar deceptions. Now, who gave you the authority to decide which passages “Angel of Jehovah” are impersonated as Jehovah, and which passages is “Mighty Jehovah” himself? These re-interpretations of Jehovah with “Angels of Jehovah” go directly against the spirit of the Holy Scriptures. I will explain this crucial point in more details shortly.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]If many passages in the Holy Books are brought to us by the “Angels of Jehovah” who impersonated themselves as Jehovah, then how can we trust that the other parts of their messages were not misrepresented!? [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Fortunately in the Story of Jacob wrestling with Jehovah the facts are crystal clear that you can not fool anyone!!! Let us examine the verse more carefully, Jacob says: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Certainly I have seen God face to face and have survived.”[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]First of all, Jacob says that he has seen God, and not an angel of God. Secondly, this attribute that nobody can see God face to face and survive, is attributed only to Jehovah, and nobody else![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Now, for the sake of argument let us assume that you are right. According to your analysis regarding the passage in Genesis 32:24 - 32:30 which has been translated in King James Holy Bible, it says that Jacob wrestled with God and prevailed. You argue that there is another version to that story which is reported in Hosea 12:2-4, which it says that Jacob contended with an angel of God. And obviously you prefer this version of the story. Even though these two stories have some significant similarities, but you do acknowledge that these two stories are very different; because they are saying very different things. And of course you also acknowledge that both of these passages are words of God, but in different books. Then, these two versions of presumably of the same story present a good example of how inapt this Mighty Jehovah is! Because, he can not even tell a simple story straight forward! Perhaps the Old Age has affected Jehovah's mental capability! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Let me expose another flaw within your presumably clever argument:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Here you are forgetting something; these documents that you tried to reinterpret them in your last post, they are not like some scientific documents that you could analyze them with a new outlook and try to fit them into your updated perceptions and visions. These Holy Texts are advertised as words of God, so, nobody can reinterpret or revise them a bit. And it does not matter who is doing the reinterpretation, the status of his/her authority does not matter at all. Any prophet or any religion scholar who interjects any new interpretations which violates the expressed meaning of the earlier verses, that person is committed a heresy and he/she is condemned to Hell! Do you remember how we rejected the divinity of Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ? We said since God’s commandment forbids it, then the claims of any other divinities must be false and heretic, no matter who claims it. So, stop giving us this nonsense that other documents might help us to interpret the Holy Scriptures differently! I wonder what kind of believer you are, that you lack this basic understanding of the Holy Scriptures!? The moment that you suggested that these Scriptures require new human’s interpretations, right then you forfeited the credibility of the Holy Scriptures to be words of God! [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]You never can lose track of the basic assumption which you claimed it in the beginning. You said these Holy Texts were words of God, so, please treat them as such. No double guessing is allowed here. Jacob clearly says that he had seen God face to face. So, you are not allowed to doubt that. The passage clearly says that Jacob wrestled with God, then you are not allowed to doubt that either. You simply can not have it both ways; either these Scriptures are words of God, or they are not. If they are words of God, then the meaning stands the way it is expressed and no reinterpretation is allowed, and if they are not words of God, then your whole claim is void! If you are confused about this logic, I suggest some schooling could help you to understand this rational. No violation of the original assumption is allowed.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Now, let me explore other aspect of the Jacob wrestling story. We read that Jacob wrestled Jehovah and he prevailed. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]AND[/FONT][FONT=&quot] JACOB ALSO STOPPED JEHOVAH FROM LEAVING, until Jehovah blessed him.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] This Jehovah who has brought himself to the situation, that it was out of his control, and he needed to ask Jacob to let him go, reveals a totally new outlook at Jehovah’s capabilities, which has not been scrutinized before! Here we can speculate; is it prudent for this Jehovah to risk his kingdom by allowing these strong and aggressive people to enter into his Heaven? The possibilities are there, that these strong people might gang up on Jehovah, and beat him up really good, and cripple him, and take over his kingdom! This is a very plausible and very serious scenario which should not be dismissed at all. After all, these mentally sick people have shown that they have had that kind of bizarre ambitions![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]May God Bless Us All,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Unes[/FONT]
     
  11. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah Member

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    Unes,

    Perhaps, you have heard of Donald Trump, an American business magnate. In an article concerning his business affairs, it said that "Trump is building Trump International Golf Club in the Caribbean island of Canouan Island." Is Mr Donald Trump actually doing all the work personally ? No. Rather, by his authority, the construction of Trump International Golf Club is being accomplished.

    It is spoken as if he personally is erecting this golf club. Yet, any and everyone clearly recognizes that it is by his backing and authority that this is being built, but workers are doing the actual construction. No one questions the way the above article is written, for it is understood that he is the man "behind the scenes" or authority.

    Likewise concerning angels, who spoke for or represented Jehovah God, speaking in his name. This is not difficult to comprehend nor in any way dishonest, but rather shows that Jehovah God is the final authority. Thus, with regard to Jacob, the angel spoke in Jehovah's name, representing him before Jacob, with Jacob recognizing that it was Jehovah who sent his angel, not the angel sending himself. Through his angelic representative, Jacob saw "God face to face," for it was as if he had seen "God face to face."(Gen 32:30)

    Ambassadors and emissaries are everywhere throughout the earth, speaking for their respective governments. Yet no one condemns them for doing so, realizing that this how governments function. All governments have their respective representatives, speaking for and in the name of their nation. This is true of angels as well.

    For example, at Judges 6, the nation of Midian was oppressing the nation of Israel. A man named Gideon was approached by Jehovah's angel, telling him that "Jehovah is with you, you valiant mighty one."(Judges 6:11, 12) This angel did not say that he was an angel but spoke for Jehovah before Gideon, just as an ambassador does for it's respective country. Only later did Gideon realize that it was Jehovah's angel, even saying: "Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face !” (Judges 6:22)

    On another occasion, a man named Manoah was visted by an angel of Jehovah. Only later was did he become aware that he had seen God's angel, after his ascending "in the flame of the altar", for the account said: "Then it was that Ma·no´ah knew that he had been Jehovah’s angel. Consequently Ma·no´ah said to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.”(Judges 13:21,22) Manoah was well aware that this was Jehovah's angel, yet spoke as if Jehovah were there personally.

    It is not a matter of ' who gave me authority ' to "decide which passages "Angel of Jehovah" are impersonated as Jehovah", but rather it is a matter of examining the Bible without bias, letting it speak for itself instead of trying to fit "a square peg in a round hole." Angels are God's emissaries, for the word "angel" (Hebrew mal·’akh´ and Greek ag´ge·los ) literally means "messenger."

    There is one thing that is important to be grasped, that our Creator has a unique name - Jehovah - and that he has "a people peculiarly his own, zealous for fine works."(Titus 2:14) To these alone, he has unlocked the deep meaning of the Bible, the true purpose of life and the real reason why world conditions, both morally and ecologically, are degrading rapidly.(Rev 12:12)

    Jesus, a well known figure in history, said in prayer to his Father: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes."(Matt 11:25) Hence, to understand the depth of the meaning of life, where we came from, why we are here and where we are going, requires knowing Jehovah God, being as a "babe", humble, teachable, and recognizing that Jehovah has an angelic army, of which the Bible, at Daniel 7 speaks of at least 100 million angels before God's throne.(Dan 7:9, 10)

    It requires grasping why God made the earth, of which the churches cannot put the pieces together, nor the Koran. It requires understanding that God created a heavenly government for just the purpose of restoration of the earth to a paradise, following the rebellion of our original forefather, Adam.(Gen 3:15)

    It also requires understanding that Jehovah God is Almighty (of which is absolutely necessary to create the universe and precisionally maintain it), but dealing with humans on their level, making him approachable in prayer, for he listens to their request for mercy.(Ps 65:2) This is what the angel did with regard to Jacob, as well other loyal servants of Jehovah God.

    He is not a feind, using his power to force anyone but rather he is truly spoken as "God is love" (1 John 4:8), having created mankind "from the beginning"(Matt 19:4) to enjoy life without end in perfection on a paradise earth, whereby all wickedness will cease to exist and only "meek" ones will remain.(Prov 2:21,22) That this will come to pass is guaranteed.(Rev 21:3-5) This is not found in the Koran.
     
  12. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Dear Jaareshiah,
    In my last post I asked you; please read my post carefully. I did address all these issues.

    EVEN IF I ACCEPT YOUR VERSION, THAT THIS WAS AN ANGEL OF GOD WHO WRESTLED WITH JACOB, THEN, I HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT VERSE GENESIS 32:30 IS NOT CORRECT. BECAUSE, THEN, JACOB HAD SEEN ANGEL OF GOD, AND NOT GOD HIMSELF. THEN, WE HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT GENESIS 32:30 IS WRONG, AND JACOB LIED. (There is a big difference between seeing the US president, or seeing his representatives!) (In my last post regarding this issue, I concluded that Jehovah is an inapt individual, who the old age had affected his mental capabilities!)

    ALSO THE MEANING OF “ISRAEL” IS NOT ACCURATE!

    NOW, THAT I PROVED ONE VERSE IN HOLY SCRIPTURE IS WRONG, THEN, HOLY SCRIPTURES CAN NOT BE WORDS OF GOD.

    So, please stop repeating your nonsense, and address the point which was presented.

    May God Bless Us All,
    Unes
     
    #32 Unes, Dec 17, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2010
  13. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah Member

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    Unes,

    Then, I bid you good day since you feel that I speak non-sensical. Jacob did not lie, for from the perspective of an imperfect human, he said that he had saw "God face to face". He recognized that this was God's angel, but also realized that this was God's means of communicating with him, not God himself. Jehovah God does not need to leave his heavenly throne in order to have communication with us as his handiwork, for he has an angelic army that are his "ministers".(Ps 103:21)

    This angelic army is ever poised to to ' carry out his word, listening to the voice of his word."(Ps 103:20) Soon, under the direction of Jesus Christ, God's only-begotten Son, this angelic army will bring a complete annihilation of this "system of things" at what is called in the Bible, Armageddon.(Rev 16:14, 16)

    I will now leave you be.
     
  14. Blackheart

    Blackheart Active Member

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    Im sorry but Jacob wrestled a man not an Angel. Why would you assume that the man was an Angel? If he didnt think to have it said that the man was an Angel I dont think it helps for you to change his words. As for him saying that he had seen God face to face the bible doesnt explain so we may never know what this is about. Its a massive problem when we add or take away from the scriptures because that is how we end up misleading ourselves and others. Read it as it is and if it doesnt make sense then admit that rather than rewritting it the way you want it read.
     
  15. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Dear Jaareshiah,
    So, if you say that “he (Jacob) recognized this was God’s angel”, then, I have to conclude that Jacob lied when he said that he saw God FACE TO FACE! This is similar to; when I saw a US federal employee, someone like a mail carrier, and I claim that I saw the US President FACE TO FACE! If you suggest that this is not a lie, then I have to conclude that you have lost all your sense of rationality! And there is no frame of language that we can base our conversation upon it. And this is right in line with the fanatic mentality!

    I am sure that I can not affect a bit that frame of mind. So, respectfully I ask you to preach your enlightened views in the section of this forum which is designated specifically for Judaism. In this domain you are totally out of your league.

    May God Bless Us All,
    Unes
     
  16. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah Member

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    Please read Hosea 12:2-4.
     
  17. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah Member

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    When visiting faithful individuals of Jehovah God, angels at times materialized as men. For example, at Genesis 18, when visiting Abraham, the account says that "Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mam´re, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day. When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth. Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be taken, please, and you must have your feet washed. Then recline under the tree. "(Gen 18:1-4)

    Abraham somehow discerned that these visitors were angelic messengers from Jehovah, with one taking the lead in speaking. Abraham did not know beforehand if they had a message for him or if they were just passing through. Among mankind at this period in time, Abraham had shown himself loyal to God and was thus privileged with a visit from angelic representatives of God, who had materialized as men. How else were they able to speak with Abraham face to face ? Seeing them as men, he offered them "bread" and told his wife Sarah to "Hurry! Get three seah measures of fine flour, knead the dough and make round cakes.” (Gen 18:5, 6)

    At Genesis 18:16, it says: "Later the men got up from there and looked down toward Sod´om, and Abraham was walking with them to escort them."(Gen 18:16) Then, the account now says that "at this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sod´om; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham."(Gen 18:22) The angel that took the lead in representing Jehovah God "was still standing before Abraham", while the other two "men....got on their way to Sod´om."

    That these are angels materialized as "men", Genesis 19:1 says: "Now the two angels arrived at Sod´om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod´om. When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth." Thus, the angel representing and speaking for Jehovah God remained with Abraham, while the other two angels walked on down to Sodom, coming upon Abraham's nephew, Lot.

    Hence, enough information has been brought forth to be able to see that angels during patriarchal times materialized as men at times when speaking with God's loyal ones, able to speak "face to face". I have no desire to reply any further after this.
     
  18. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Dear Jaareshiah,
    You are a confused person, please make up your mind, just in your post before this last post, you insisted that Mighty Jehovah is in heaven, and these were his angels who were interacting with people, you wrote: “He recognized that this was God's angel, but also realized that this was God's means of communicating with him, not God himself. Jehovah God does not need to leave his heavenly throne in order to have communication with us as his handiwork, for he has an angelic army that are his "ministers".(Ps 103:21)”

    And now, you are saying this was Mighty Jehovah himself who interacted with Abraham.

    If you accept Genesis 18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. As a factual verse, exactly the way it is expressed, and you are not interpreting that the Jehovah in this verse is an angel of Jehovah, then how can you allege that the content of Genesis 32:30 “Certainly I have seen God face to face and have survived.” is not factual, and it needs to be interpreted differently!? Aren’t these verses from the same book!?

    May God Bless Us All,
    Unes
     
    #38 Unes, Dec 19, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
  19. AntEmpire

    AntEmpire Active Member

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    "Reason is an ability found in humans, that is able to generate conclusions from assumptions or premises."

    Even if reason pointed to a specific God-figure existing, these would rely on your personal assumptions about the world/god and it would simply mean you have generated the conclusion that which-ever specific God exists.

    In other words, so what if your vision of the world leads you to believe in your vision of god?
     
  20. glyphkenn

    glyphkenn Member

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    Where did we come from? I don't know, and I don't think anyone knows. religious scholas presenting their god thories as fact , evolutionist presenting their theories as fact, shows that we are trying to find out. There is nothing wrong with that. But, please understand you only have theories no facts. Where are we going ? Your guess is as good as mine. Here again there are many many theories ,no facts. That leaves us with " why are we here ?" Or as i like to call it " the here and now". Answering this will bring us closer to fact than any of the other two . I get from religion that if there is a God that created us , He chooses not to intervene or interact with us since creating and setting things in motion. I know there will be alot of you saying "you don't what He's done for me" . I'LL say to that ,aside from a few generalisations, everything you said God did for you, you actually did for your self. Know here comes the (HE WOKE ME UP THIS MORNING AND STARTED ME ON MY WAY). That same privilege was given to a whole lot of murderers and thieves today. Science and evolution,there is way to many holes in that theory to begin. One theory is too simple, and the other way too complex to have just fell in place. Both theories agree that earth is a very special planet. It is capable of sustaining complex life. In the vastness of space there are not many like it. For all we know this may be the only one. could it be that wether we evolved or were created we are simply caretakers of this beautiful planet.
     
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