God and Pre-universe

[shawn001]

It wouldn't look like anything. It would not even exist in the normal sense of that word. There was no time or space in which it could exist. I'm not saying anything much different than when scientists say the universe comes from "nothing". They don't really mean nothing in the normal sense of that word.

I'm not distinguishing between actuality and reality.

Virtual particles in Quantum foam.

"Let’s start with the origin of the universe. There is plenty of good scientific evidence that our universe began about 14 billion years ago, in a Big Bang of enormously high density and temperature, long before planets, stars and even atoms existed. But what came before? Krauss in his book discusses the current thinking of physicists that our entire universe could have emerged from a jitter in the amorphous haze of the subatomic world called the quantum foam, in which energy and matter can materialize out of nothing. (On the level of single subatomic particles, physicists have verified in the lab that such creation from “nothing” can occur.) Krauss’s punch line is that we do not need God to create the universe. The quantum foam can do it quite nicely all on its own. Aczel asks the obvious question: But where did the quantum foam come from? Where did the quantum laws come from? Hasn’t Krauss simply passed the buck? Legitimate questions. But ones we will probably never be able to answer."

Book review: ‘Why Science Does Not Disprove God’ by Amir D. Aczel - The Washington Post

NOTE: In physic's there is no such thing as NO-THING.

Actually we maybe able to answer them someday or at least some of them.

 

[shawn001]

Just on time and space and space-time.

NOVA: The Fabric of the Cosmos - What is Space?

The Fabric of the Cosmos 2 - The Illusion of Time

The Fabric of the Cosmos - Quantum Leap

Does Time Really Exist? - Universe Documentary

Note: there is an experiment they are working on right now that could tell us a lot about time. Not sure where they are at with it, but if I remember its about time and QM . I think it maybe in the above video does time really exist.

 

[`mud]

hey Shawn,
Now I have to take the time to watch these videos to explain to me why the BB existed ?
I don't think it did but I'll watch, see you all in about an hour and some time for the potty.
There wasn't any single singularity, maybe they're going to tell me about the multiverses,
About that....I already know....but I do enjoy the videos.
later you all
~
'mud

 

[`mud]

Despite numerous 'puter and server problems:
I've spent a couple of hours or so viewing Shawns videos,
well a couple of them, a couple of thoughts follow, mostly BS.
~
Parallel realities
Goes against the randomicity of the Cosmos.
The Cosmos is in total chaos, and there is no control for it.
QM....what is it...quantum mechanics. What is gravity ?
What is the weight of red light, or green light,
or any combination of any one frequency of energy ?
Quantum leap ??? Electron weight ???
nucleus mass-acceleration.
double slit ? How wide is the slit, and adjascent to what ?
shared attraction, vs, repulsion
plasmic interaction....chaotic interference
casino failure
entangelment.....mathematical crap...or spin ???
Resonant harmonics, each nudge of a photon excites the adjascent photons.
Cosmotic chaos, every photon in touch with all adjascent photons.
Photonic coupling, practially no apparant mass, almost none.
All photonic interaction is coupled to every adjascent photon.
Picture a chain in three or more demensions,
with every photon touching the photons next to it,
picture also nudging one, then all will sense the nudge,
remember....all photons are in contact with the next one adjascent,
and the then the adjascent and then to the next to everywhere.
It's not really 'spin'...it's the total resonance of the all.
That's why 'light' seems to 'move', despite distance and motion.
The 'speed' is determined by the 'length' of a photon,
when 'nudged' by anything, and on to the next and so on.
This could explain 'entanglement', but maybe not.
Teleport or not, that is the question.
At the end of this thinking....BS begets BS
Or does it ?....Count the photons !
~
'mud

 

[Thief]

If X requires an external source for motion, cause Y, then cause Y requires this as well and so on. You invoke causality then via special pleading render God immune from causality. This is your blunder and special pleading fallacy. Try again

sure, I can try again....how about you?

The hall of mirrors trick doesn't work on God.

Someone had to be First.
I place spirit before substance.

If substance first, then all that you are is chemically based....and terminal.

 

[Shad]

sure, I can try again....how about you?

The hall of mirrors trick doesn't work on God.

Someone had to be First.
I place spirit before substance.

If substance first, then all that you are is chemically based....and terminal.

It is still special pleading as you render spirit immune from the same principles of causality. Beside this spirit is an assumption not valid and sound thus can be dismissed for being unsubstantiated.

 

[Thief]

It is still special pleading as you render spirit immune from the same principles of causality. Beside this spirit is an assumption not valid and sound thus can be dismissed for being unsubstantiated.

Perhaps the word unsubstantiated is missed used.

After all, faith is not a proven item....see Webster's

 

[Shad]

Perhaps the word unsubstantiated is missed used.

After all, faith is not a proven item....see Webster's

If you argue that your view is unsubstantiated then you admit you have no evidence thus anyone can freely dismiss your argument.

 

[Thief]

If you argue that your view is unsubstantiated then you admit you have no evidence thus anyone can freely dismiss your argument.

You may declare your lack of faith.

As for my argument....it would stand well enough for believers.

If not, they may argue the point further.

I don't see that you have a dog in the fight.

 

[Thief]

I come across many people that say God existed for an eternity before creation.

Putting aside all the problems coming from that idea. (time before time, eternity implies no end and so here we are, etc)

If God existed eternally before he made the universe, why did it take him so long?

Also, what did he exist in? Space is post-creation, as is time. A sequence of events must have happened before creation, right? So now he has no time.

Time is required to act (create) - Without it, God cannot do any action at all until he created time.

Just to reiterate........time does not exist.
It is not a force or a substance.
It is only a cognitive device created by Man to serve Man.
It is only a quotient on a chalkboard.
You will never find a trace of it....anywhere else.

 

[`mud]

hey Thief,
I don't think you answered the query ?
Although I agree with most of what you just wrote.
What was the 'trace' of nothing before the creation,
involving the passage of 'no time'.
Circular ends where everything begins,
and ............
~
'mud

 

[Shad]

You may declare your lack of faith.

As for my argument....it would stand well enough for believers.

If not, they may argue the point further.

I don't see that you have a dog in the fight.

So you argument is only acceptable to those already endorsing the view. This is called preaching to the choir. Just as talking about ghosts to people that believe in ghosts about how ghost exist. Thus you can not objective substainate your views outside of subjective views.

My dog is that people preaching to the choir and their subjective views are some how evidence of of objective views. It is not. It is the sophistry which I take issue with. Sophistry you fully endorse.

 

[Thief]

So you argument is only acceptable to those already endorsing the view. This is called preaching to the choir. Just as talking about ghosts to people that believe in ghosts about how ghost exist. Thus you can not objective substainate your views outside of subjective views.

My dog is that people preaching to the choir and their subjective views are some how evidence of of objective views. It is not. It is the sophistry which I take issue with. Sophistry you fully endorse.

and you are preaching non-belief....to a religious forum.

 

[Thief]

hey Thief,
I don't think you answered the query ?
Although I agree with most of what you just wrote.
What was the 'trace' of nothing before the creation,
involving the passage of 'no time'.
Circular ends where everything begins,
and ............
~
'mud

That 'trace of nothing'.....would be Spirit.

 

[Blackmarch]

I come across many people that say God existed for an eternity before creation.

Putting aside all the problems coming from that idea. (time before time, eternity implies no end and so here we are, etc)

If God existed eternally before he made the universe, why did it take him so long?

Also, what did he exist in? Space is post-creation, as is time. A sequence of events must have happened before creation, right? So now he has no time.

Time is required to act (create) - Without it, God cannot do any action at all until he created time.

just to note, the biblical account of this world only deals with this world not what came before (tho many assume that it refers to the whole of creation).
eternal merely means god's time or god's existance. however for most eternal is synonymous with forever or infinite. as for your question it would depend on if god exists solely within our universe or does not. if he does not and can influence this universe from a seperate or somewhat seperate one then time would have no meaning to him, or at least it would be a different interaction than what we would be familiar with

As for why things take so long- God works through small changes, and if time has no meaning does any length of time matter?
according to him all things are before him, if so then he could see when the best moments to have something happen would be.