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Featured God And Homosexuality

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, May 14, 2020.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You've made up lies about 1) what the bible says, 2) what Jesus would or would not condone, 3) the spiritual state of those who identify as homosexual, 3) the advisability of marriage. Why not just go on ahead and make up lies about me, as well? That seems to be the major working tool of your posts for this debate. (BTW: just what does the bible say about lying? I wonder...?)

    Your post also presumes that you 1) know what God is thinking and 2) that you speak for God. Both presumptions are, likewise, lies.

    When did I ever present a "pro-sodomy defense?" In fact, I said that sodomy is a legal term, not a descriptive one, and since the debate doesn't center around sodomy, but upon homosexuality, and the two have nothing to do with one another, perhaps you should consider changing your tactics, coming up with a new (and effective) argument? Your posts don't seem to have mastered the flimflam tactics so prevalent among religious homophobes. It's embarrassing, really.
     
  2. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    So which god have you discussed that with, and did you share a meal with it like Abraham did when he and a god had a face to face discussion about the number of righteous children in Gomorrah (Gen 18)?
     
    #682 Mitty, Jun 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
  3. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    What major tenets of the faith did Paul and Jesus discuss? And where and when did they discuss it?
     
    #683 Mitty, Jun 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  4. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
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    Paul and Jesus never met.
     
  5. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Give that fluff a rest. So, no homosexuals engage in sodomy? LOL. And it doesn't have to be just the act itself that's a sin, but a man lusting after another man is a sin too (note Matthew 5:27-28 - lusting about a sinful act). Same with a woman lusting after another woman.

    As for homophobes, I'm not scared of any homosexual, so get a new dog. Gay sex is a sin, and just as John the Baptist spoke out against adultery, it's right and proper to do the same with illicit homosexual sin.
     
  6. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    None of that changes the fact that the bible says nothing about female homosexuality or women with women despite your wishful thinking.
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Give that fluff a rest. So, no heterosexuals engage in sodomy? LOL. (Hint: homosexuality isn't the issue -- sodomy is the issue.)

    Yeah, but we're not talking about lust here. We're talking about loving, committed, equitable and consensual relationships. There's a difference. You don't get to turn those into "lust" any more than you get to turn heterosexual committee, equitable, consensual and loving relationships into "lust" just to satisfy your homophobia.

    I think Someone needs a new dog -- a tiny, white, fluffy one, with a little pink bow on its head.

    Not so long as it's an expression of a loving, consensual, committed and equitable relationship.

    But it's not OK for you to be part of systemic violence against the homosexual population. Remember: it's only "illicit" if it's an act of violence and not loving, committed, consensual and equitable. At least that's so in this country, for which countless brave souls have made the ultimate sacrifice for everyone's right to express themselves fully as human beings.
     
  8. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    I support systemic violence against the homosexual population? Horse manure.

    Yeah, homosexuals have a right to gay marriage in this country. But the Bible says the afterlife is another story.

    1 Co 6:9 - "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men."
     
  9. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    I didn't say "I have a black friend." I said I have gay friends and family and am not ignorant of the issues, their complexity, or the desire of gays to say their internal compasss, which tells them something is wrong/guilty/hurting is 100% from outside themselves.

    IMHO, all persons need to trust Jesus for salvation, friends who have are honest about where their sexuality has been bruised/wounded--they deal with past hurts instead of blame shifting.

    I'm a Jew. Half my race was killed in living memory in a genocide. I don't say "the pain I'm in is because of anti-Semitism". Let us both deal honestly with our pain, starting with, have you doubted or struggled with gay desires/been unsure you are gay, without a justification like "The struggles I had were all because of others' comments and opinions".
     
  10. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    The culture was unaware of orientation? I think you meant, "the culture considered certain orientations toxic/unnatural.

    Jesus was God IMHO, not a mere "product of his culture" as you wrote. Why else would he elevate women, children and Gentiles, so very greatly?
     
  11. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    I'm aware of the change to the DSM-IV. I'm also aware that no culture before now has accepted homosexuality as normative or appropriate, including the Spartans/Romans/Greeks, especially since their gay culture was a horrid rape culture where the passive recipient of the man was belitted/lowered. How horrible.

    This statement of yours intrigues me, "Science has determined that homosexuality is a normal and healthy expression of humanity." I've also heard recently that science can tell us when life begins or that rape is wrong and consensual sex is good!

    Homosexual activity (not mere desire) is sin in the Bible, the Bible mentions homosexuality in 18 different accounts, none of them good. The Bible is the very best indicator of how to think, how to trust, when to trust, how to plan, act, live, die and rise IMHO!

    As a Jew who has experienced racism/persecution/violence, I sympathize with being singled out for you are. Biblically, though, being gay is not who you have to be going forward IMHO.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    So you draw no lines? Because "the sky falls" when it's an adult and a child. There are limits, you just don't like them in certain places, I think.

    I encourage you to listen first, read the Bible--learn a bit. I say that to you respectfully.
     
  13. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Yes, GOD made sex, not Satan. I like sex very much!

    Jesus is also GOD and didn't need sex while on Earth, or food or water or other things. He is GOD.
     
  14. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    I think you haven't studied marriage among Jews or in the ANE much.

    Jesus also told the opposite, for example, "Don't you know I can call angels now to rescue me, but I won't."
     
  15. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    I've answered all your questions, you are continuing to duck what I said, including the statement that the women/men engaged in unnatural acts (plural), not anal sex (single act we can think of).
     
  16. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Jesus spoke against homosexuality, defining a marriage as a man and woman, with God as witness.

    Jesus loved all His disciples, telling them He loved them all with a great love, and John, who wrote one of the gospels, was excited to report He loved John.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    When you speak out publicly against them, yes, it is taking part in systemic violence.

    Dang right they do. So why do you have a problem with what's legal? And supported by the mainstream church?

    I don't think so.

    Don't you know that it's widely accepted that this passage is talking about pederasty and is in no way targeting consensual, committed, equitable and loving relationships? You should know that.
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    No; I know what I meant, and I said what I meant. In that culture, there was no awareness of orientation. Heck! There wasn't an awareness of orientation in our own culture until the late 20th century! Even now (as you have so clearly illustrated) there are toxic parts of the culture that perpetrate the "unnaturalness" of the orientation, even though the medical community has declared that it is, in fact, natural and healthy.

    Yes, but the writers who give us the only evidence we have for Jesus could not be aware of what others in that culture were not aware of.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Then you also must be aware of how we have grown beyond iron-age thinking, such as, "Who did his parents tick off, that he was born blind?" Part of the reason why "gay culture" then was violent, is because of the lack of awareness of the fullness of human sexuality. It was anger born of frustration born out of misunderstanding and the condemnation of their fellows. Most homosexuals are no longer that way, since medical science has provided greater understanding, and since society has advanced since biblical times.

    Your example illustrates the same phenomenon in which blacks riot, loot, burn, when one of them is killed through systemic violence. Black people are not "normally" violent. Neither are those who identify as homosexual.

    Science knows a lot about humanity.

    Because the writers did not understand that humans are oriented sexually. Therefore, what is actually a normal part of human identity and expression was seen as "unnatural," and therefore "sin."

    So, the bible knows the very best that slavery is a "natural" part of society? It knows that women are "less than" men? It knows that it's OK to kill children? No, I'm afraid the bible is a product of its culture. It promotes love, equity, compassion, mercy, but the ways in which it condones achieving these things is as outdated as the cultures that produced it. We're not living in the Iron Age anymore. we are constrained to live out love, equity, compassion and mercy from our own societal perspectives.

    Since the bible never addresses "being gay," I don't see how it can teach that "being gay is not who you have to be going forward." This is nothing more than eisegesis on your part. I would stand on the same ground as you do if I said that the bible teaches that you don't have to be a Jew going forward. Jesus came to do away with Judaism when he started the church. You can (and should) change your religion, just as homosexuals can (and should) change their sexual identities. You see how this works? When we don't take time or effort to exegete the texts, we can justify and purify all kinds of systemic violence in the name of religion.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    How do you know that? Can we be sure that Jesus wasn't married, or had relationships? I think the best we can say is that "we don't know for sure."
     
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