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Featured God and His Take on Human Sexuality

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    When god made man and woman he constructed each so they could mate and produce offspring. To this end man was given a penis to insert into the woman so his sperm could reach and fertilize her eggs. In Genesis 3:15 god verifies this expectation when tells Eve:

    I will cause you to have much trouble
    when you are pregnant.
    And when you give birth to children,
    you will have much pain.​

    Now, I seriously doubt ether A&E knew what god was talking about when he mentioned pregnancy, what giving birth was, or what children were. But because both A&E had been given libidos (I believe this is a logical conclusion) they did have sex. In fact this is confirmed in Genesis 4:1-2 where we read

    1 Adam had sexual relations with his wife Eve. She became pregnant and gave birth to a son.
    She named him Cain. Eve said, “With the Lord’s help, I have made a man!”
    2 Eve gave birth again to Cain’s brother Abel.​

    So god expected A&E, and presumably their descendants, to be likewise driven to have sexual relations.

    In short, god created mankind to desire and have sexual relations. YET, in 1 Corinthians we read:

    1 Corinthians 7:1
    1 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”
    Evidently these "matters" concerned sexual immorality, and god--continuing to speak through the Apostle Paul---begrudgingly allows sexual relations between husband and wife.

    1 Corinthians 7:2
    2
    But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.
    So what's going on here? First god specially constructs humans so they can have sexual relations, AND gives them libidos to prod them to do so..

    Later on he specifically tells Noah and family to pursue these sexual relations.

    Genesis 9:7
    As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."​

    But now in 1 Corinthians 7:1 he unqualifiedly says that having sexual relations with a woman ain't good.



    ANYONE CARE TO EXPLAIN?

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  2. Deidre

    Deidre Well-Known Member

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    If you look at the entire passage, it's really just an advertisement on Paul's part to encourage men and women to get married, if they wish to have sex and steer clear of immorality.
     
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  3. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    This still doesn't explain god's change in position.

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  4. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    First ask yourself. Why Cain is not listed under Adam's genealogy in Genesis. In fact they are listed as 2 seperate genealogies.

    Second. Who did Cain marry in the Land of Nod after he killed Able? If Adam and Eve were the only other 2 humans. How is this possible?

    I'll let you roll the genealogy in your head for awhile.

    But the answer to the second question is because God created Adam and Eve in Eden. They had the ability to procreate as all humans did. But no need to. Eden was paradise and they wanted for nothing.

    He also created mankind outside of Eden in the Land of Nod, who procreated in great numbers. These people is of which Cain married so suddenly after being expelled from Eden. All of this is in Genesis.
     
  5. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    It is pretty simple, to abstain from marriage and to live exclusively for the praise and service of God is the best possible manifestation of Christian life. We call this the religious life or monasticism. However since few people have the predilection for the religious life then getting married and starting a family is a perfectly good and valid choice. Indeed, that is the expectation for the majority and it is no failing whatsoever to take that path. Marriage is a sacrament after all, therefore God clearly intends for most people to marry.

    Marriage and procreation are good things (I even go so far as to consider them to be the bedrock of society) but that doesn't make them moral imperatives on the individual level.

    No he doesn't. He says that it is good to be abstinent, not that sexual relations in their proper place are evil. He even goes on to say that those not willing to be abstinent should get married.

    An analogy (and no analogy is perfect) would be that it can be praiseworthy for certain people to not drink alcohol but that doesn't mean that responsible drinking is itself a bad thing. It is not one or the other.
     
    #5 Musing Bassist, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    What is referenced here is a very human view recorded in ancient scripture concerning what the people believed at the time, and not necessarily God's view of sexuality, which is more akin to the witness of Nature and Creation that species including humans reproduce and multiply by natural sexual methods. The morals and ethics that evolve within cultures and societies is part of the process.
     
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  7. jhwatts

    jhwatts Member

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    Exactly, The intent is to preserve blood lines.

    Genesis 6: 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

    The sons of men are from the dust, Genesis 2:7, Ecclesiastes 3: (19-20), the genealogies of Genesis 4

    The son of God are "after his kind" Genesis 1: (25-26), Luke 3:38, the genealogies of Genesis 5

    The real reason for the flood was to get ride of the ones cursed.

    Genesis 6:7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

    and preserve the blood line described in Luke 3. Notice that it is also the corresponding genealogy in Genesis 5 too.
     
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  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    He doesn't say a thing about "proper place," and you know it. He makes the unqualified (you do know what that is, don't you?) statement.

    It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”​



    It's always been my understanding that directives in the New Testament bear the authority of god. Of course, if one doesn't feel Paul's words carry the authority of god---the Bible not necessarily representing the thinking of god---then almost everything he and, I assume, the other New Testament writers say is nothing more than the opinions and interpretations of mortals; carrying no more weight than that of any other Christian, then or now.


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    #8 Skwim, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
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  9. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    Are you reading the same text as me? If you would but read on and take the Saint Paul's argument as a whole. Paul explicitly tells people to get married if they cannot or are unwilling to commit to celibacy. 1 Corinthians 7:2

    The take home message is pretty easy to grasp, marriage is well and good but celibacy (for those willing to commit to it) for God's sake is better.

    It's not that one is good and the other bad, it's one is good but the other is better.

    2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
    9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
    10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

    In fact Paul goes so far as to claim that it is a sin to unduly deny your spouse sex.
    1 Corinthians 7:5

    Clearly, Christians aren't allowed to get married and sex is an unqualified evil. :rolleyes:
     
    #9 Musing Bassist, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Your presenting an extreme view either or. like saying the Bible should understood spiritually as 'Sola Scriptora' or it is only opinions and interpretations of mortals. If one must make a choice it is the later that is the reality of the Biblical scripture.

    I chose the option closer to the middle road, Scripture provides spiritual guidance for the time, but must be understood in the human condition and cultures of the time. Progressively through the ages our morals and ethics evolve and mature to more universal standards of the contemporary world.
     
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  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Yes, I'm sure we're both reading the same passages. Did you happen to keep reading my post where I quote the very same piece you do: 1 Corinthians 7:2?


    Sorry that you've missed my point. It has nothing to do with what god permits people to do, but rather his change of mind. From Genesis 3:15, Genesis 4:1-2, and Genesis 9:7 it's quite clear that god wants humans to have sexual relations---Go back and read my OP if necessary. But then in 1 Corinthians 7:1 he says "“It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” See the difference?

    FIRST: It's good that man and woman have sexual relations.
    THEN: It's NOT good that man and woman have sexual relations.

    That god begrudgingly allows sexual relations between husband and wife is immaterial. All else being equal, god still feels it is not good for a man have sexual relations with a woman.

    .
     
    #11 Skwim, Sep 15, 2017
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  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    One understanding of Paul's worldview is he likely believed it would all end in one generation as Jesus Christ said.
     
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  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I'm not announcing any shoulds or should nots. I'm saying that if one doesn't feel Paul's words carry the authority or sanction of god, I can only assume that what he and the other New Testament writers say is just their mortal opinions or interpretations.

    .
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    This is dismissing other options,
     
  15. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    What options?

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  16. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    How do those passages exclude the notion of celibacy for God's sake?

    Genesis 3:15 Simply states that Eve will have descendants. It is a positive, not a normative statement.
    Genesis 4:1-2 Again, tells us that the couple procreated. That's not a commandment.
    Genesis 9:7 Is a command, considering that they're the only humans left. God is addressing specific people in a specific set of circumstances, not necessarily making a universal command that every person at all times in both old and new covenants is universally obligated to breed.

    When Paul writes, not only are the ritual obligations of Judaism (which did emphasize marriage) defunct, the earth has clearly been populated. The species as a whole clearly has no problem with breeding nor is the message of Paul indicating that should stop. Funnily enough practicing Christians tend to have more children than the non-religious.

    You're reading the commands to populate the earth as universal on the individual level, rather than a command to the species as a general whole.
     
    #16 Musing Bassist, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  17. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    That God made marriage a sacrament throws the notion that God allows it only begrudgingly is silly. It is precisely because the sexual act is so sacred in God's eyes that it is to be restricted. When you procreate you bring about an immortal soul into existence, thus the act attached to that possibility is never to be taken lightly.

    And Paul says it is good to be celibate, not that it is innately bad to not be. One does not exclude the other.
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    That their testimony was inspired by God, but limited, influenced, and understood within the culture of the time and the human fallible perspective. Apparently you have not read my previous posts.

    I chose the option closer to the middle road, Scripture provides spiritual guidance for the time, but must be understood in the human condition and cultures of the time. Progressively through the ages our morals and ethics evolve and mature to more universal standards of the contemporary world.
     
  19. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    A typo. It should have been genesis 3:16.

    What I'm reading is that god condones sexual relations.

    Other than yourself, I don't recall anyone saying anything is bad.


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  20. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I take this to mean you believe Paul's words carry the authority or sanction of god.

    I did read them, but among those that are relevant saw that they only addressed how you or others chose to use it, not what it was, which was the issue.

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