God and Determinism?

[Deidre]

Have been reading a lot lately on the concept of determinism. Do you equate the concept of a deity, with the concept of determinism? Are the two mutually exclusive? My belief system being Christianity, it would seem that if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then wouldn’t He be the embodiment of determinism? Determinism is a lot more in depth than I once thought…it bases its premise on that even though we have free will, our free will is pre-determined! That is fascinating!

What are your thoughts?

 

[eiskalt]

Yes it is. But i believe it is impossible to have free will, i.e. a choice of any sort, if there is a god, who knows the outcome of this choice. You are not free to choose, because it would imply ignorance on the part of god. It is especially obvious with the example of choosing between obeying or disobeying god. You cant really choose to do that, because he already knows and thus would also enact on your "choice", making him allpowerful and not having to be less powerful for having somebody else have choices. I could imagine free will if there were 2 and more gods, or if there was no all-powerful and all-knowing deities.

 

[Deidre]

I love your answer, @eiskalt - thank you. Question though...why does it feel like we have choices/free will? Are these just mere feelings?

 

[eiskalt]

I love your answer, @eiskalt - thank you. Question though...why does it feel like we have choices/free will? Are these just mere feelings?

Hmm can you describe how it feels like to have free will?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I love your answer, @eiskalt - thank you. Question though...why does it feel like we have choices/free will? Are these just mere feelings?

Because we are ignorant of the forces that pre-determine our "choice?"

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Have been reading a lot lately on the concept of determinism. Do you equate the concept of a deity, with the concept of determinism? Are the two mutually exclusive? My belief system being Christianity, it would seem that if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then wouldn’t He be the embodiment of determinism? Determinism is a lot more in depth than I once thought…it bases its premise on that even though we have free will, our free will is pre-determined! That is fascinating!

What are your thoughts?

I wouldn't say God is the 'embodiment' of determinism, and it certainly isn't a fatalistic determinism, but a positive one that we can take hope in, that we can trust God has all things under control and works all things for our good and His glory.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't equate the two, no... only some of the gods pertain to fate, such as the Moirae or the Spirit of Destiny or some such.

 

[Aiviu]

Have been reading a lot lately on the concept of determinism. Do you equate the concept of a deity, with the concept of determinism? Are the two mutually exclusive? My belief system being Christianity, it would seem that if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then wouldn’t He be the embodiment of determinism? Determinism is a lot more in depth than I once thought…it bases its premise on that even though we have free will, our free will is pre-determined! That is fascinating!

What are your thoughts?

No, not directly. Its still us. Something like this..

I know that we pretermine our life in a way that we make ourself understand that we can recognize a greater being like God. Still its our choice to be who we like to be. How we will feel and who we will become is attached to what we think, say and do. If we're happy as an atheist then its ok, but in the end there wont be a reason to be happy at all.

God exists that you dont hope for what you can't become (God). That you dont hope for what you dont deserve (Love).

For God or to say, to obey in love, is the reason to become. This is the only hope you deserve. The only one that you can become. To understand this - we are pretermined by ourselfs.

 

[viole]

Have been reading a lot lately on the concept of determinism. Do you equate the concept of a deity, with the concept of determinism? Are the two mutually exclusive? My belief system being Christianity, it would seem that if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then wouldn’t He be the embodiment of determinism? Determinism is a lot more in depth than I once thought…it bases its premise on that even though we have free will, our free will is pre-determined! That is fascinating!

What are your thoughts?

Well, yes. Our will is predetermined. If we exclude QM that is a result of classical physics and relativity. If we include QM, then things get a bit more complicated, but the results will be substantially the same. Any will that exerts physical influences is reducible to a physical state prior to the expression of said will.

And if God is omnimax, and existed, then determinism follows from the premises.

So, question to a deterministic Christian: do you pray?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

So, question to a deterministic Christian: do you pray?

Yes, of course, it's talking to God, my Father, our Creator, and gives many benefits in seeking solace and peace with God, giving thanksgiving, praising Him, repenting, receiving strength, many things, not just asking for things.

And when it comes to asking for things, this too may be part of God's will and what He wants you to do in order for that thing to pass.

It's like saying, if you believe in determinism, what's the point of putting the kettle on to make a cup of coffee, isn't the coffee already determined to exist? Well, you still need to put the kettle on for the water to boil, otherwise it just won't happen, and in the same way you may still need to pray for God to intercede, even if He has already ordained your prayer and that intercession in the first place.

 

[Tumah]

My understanding of the idea (and I strongly emphasized that its just my understanding, which is not complete, nor am I well versed in philosophy) in Judaism, is that there was an event prior to the creation, or perhaps I should say, the first stage of creation whereby G-d contracted His infinite-ness/omnimax-ity so as to enable the creation to exist in the first place. Inherent in that contraction among other things, is the possibility for the existence of choice.

 

[Xenosaga Dragonzord]

in my faith human life is 50% free choice and 50% destiny..

Born as man or woman is destiny

join air force or marine is free choice

 

[George-ananda]

Have been reading a lot lately on the concept of determinism. Do you equate the concept of a deity, with the concept of determinism? Are the two mutually exclusive?

Determinism (in its common western form) is completely materialistic; no souls, no deities, etc..

My belief system being Christianity, it would seem that if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then wouldn’t He be the embodiment of determinism?

No. God in Christian thought is something beyond the material and does not function through materialistic laws.

Determinism is a lot more in depth than I once thought…it bases its premise on that even though we have free will, our free will is pre-determined!

No, it says free will is an illusion.

What are your thoughts?

Western style determinism is flat wrong in my thinking. I believe consciousness itself is not explainable through material interactions and I believe (like Christians) that there are many things above the physical plane that effect us.

 

[Nous]

I don’t understand the idea that God’s omniscience and omnipotence implies that humans lack free will. I've heard it before. Allow me to illustrate the contrary with an analogy:

When my son was a toddler he sometimes took his magic markers and drew on the walls. It was cute when it was in his room, but I didn’t want him coloring on the living room walls, which he had done once, and it took some scrubbing to get it off. We had had a very clear discussion about confining his coloring on the walls to his room.

One day when I was at home with him, I was on the phone on a kind of important call with a client, and I saw my son going into the dining room with his magic markers. I knew he was he was going to draw on the walls--I just knew it (I’m omniscient). And I could have told my client, “Hey, hang on a minute while I go grab my son before he colors on the walls,” and thereby could have prevented my son from drawing on the walls (I’m omnipotent). But I didn’t do that.

So it seems to me that, at the very least, there must be an additional premise to the idea that God’s omniscience and omnipotence somehow obliterates human free will.

In any case, if one has to choose between the existence of human free will and the existence of God’s omniscience and/or omnipotence, then it seems to me that one has to choose human free will, as that is easily proven to exist by our ability to readily predict our own trivial bodily movements.

 

[Deidre]

Hmm can you describe how it feels like to have free will?

It feels like my choices in tandem with God's will...bring about an outcome. But, I've been reading about determinism and how even my own choices, were shaped by an external set of circumstances, events, experiences and so on. Which those shaped my choices. Not saying I believe in determinism from these standpoints, but more that currently, I'm intrigued to learn more.

Because we are ignorant of the forces that pre-determine our "choice?"

what forces would these be? how are we ignorant of them?

I wouldn't say God is the 'embodiment' of determinism, and it certainly isn't a fatalistic determinism, but a positive one that we can take hope in, that we can trust God has all things under control and works all things for our good and His glory.

This is beautiful, thank you.

I don't equate the two, no... only some of the gods pertain to fate, such as the Moirae or the Spirit of Destiny or some such.

Destiny. It is a word that I wonder about also, does God prepare us for our destiny...can we thwart our own destiny? Determinism would suggest not. What do you think?

No, not directly. Its still us. Something like this..

I know that we pretermine our life in a way that we make ourself understand that we can recognize a greater being like God. Still its our choice to be who we like to be. How we will feel and who we will become is attached to what we think, say and do. If we're happy as an atheist then its ok, but in the end there wont be a reason to be happy at all.

God exists that you dont hope for what you can't become (God). That you dont hope for what you dont deserve (Love).

For God or to say, to obey in love, is the reason to become. This is the only hope you deserve. The only one that you can become. To understand this - we are pretermined by ourselfs.

This could be, and what you say is interesting. In what I've been reading lately about determinism, it seems as I mention above, that everything that sort of 'happens' to us...is why we choose the way we do. Why we vote the way we do, etc. Our free will doesn't stand alone, in other words.

Well, yes. Our will is predetermined. If we exclude QM that is a result of classical physics and relativity. If we include QM, then things get a bit more complicated, but the results will be substantially the same. Any will that exerts physical influences is reducible to a physical state prior to the expression of said will.

And if God is omnimax, and existed, then determinism follows from the premises.

So, question to a deterministic Christian: do you pray?

Ciao

- viole

I do pray, but not for outcomes. I pray for Jesus to help me handle the outcome. Not so much in a deterministic way, do I pray, as much as I feel it's wrong to request certain outcomes (ie: God please let me arrive safely today...etc) as opposed to asking for Him to help me trust in His will, and the outcomes that flow from it. God usually gives us exactly what we need, but not always what we desire. Many people pray for God to grant them their desires, and mistake it for their needs. And question the outcome, because they don't like it.

 

[Deidre]

in my faith human life is 50% free choice and 50% destiny..

Born as man or woman is destiny

join air force or marine is free choice

But determinism suggests anyway, that the reason one chooses to join the air force, had to do with external circumstances that led them to a path...where such a ''choice'' was all there was. It's pretty eerie sometimes, to think about how my life's choices were really not choices at all, if what led me to make those choices, were out of my control. (ie: you're born into a particular family, you are born a certain gender, a certain race, into a certain religion, into a certain geography, etc etc)

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

what forces would these be? how are we ignorant of them?

Gravity, electromagentism, prior historical events, economic pressures, our internal emotional and chemical states, climate, God...We may be aware of some or all of these things, but we certainly don't know in any detail how they might affect our behavior, especially in any given situation where we might make a decision of some sort.

 

[George-ananda]

@Deidre Here is a way to understand determinism. Everything in the universe is matter and energy, For example, your entire body is just a complex thing made ultimately of only atoms, electrons, etc.. Each of these things operate through natural law. None of these things have any volition or will. So all components of your body (and everything else in the universe) is just building blocks that must do as natural laws pulls them to do. Your brain operates like that too. There is no place for free will. Things have to happen that way as all components are just following natural laws. If everything is just following natural law what is there that can not be predicted??

I probably just confused you with the above. (And I think determinism is wrong anyway as I previously mentioned).

 

[arthra]

it bases its premise on that even though we have free will, our free will is pre-determined! That is fascinating!

In my view some things are "determined" ... that is as to eventual outcome, but other situations especially where human beings are involved are based on our free will.

Without freewill we have no real responsibility. Choice is an essential quality of human life. We make choices and must own and be responsible for our actions. Being responsible means we must take the blame or the plaudits due from our actions.

 

[eiskalt]

It feels like my choices in tandem with God's will...bring about an outcome. But, I've been reading about determinism and how even my own choices, were shaped by an external set of circumstances, events, experiences and so on. Which those shaped my choices. Not saying I believe in determinism from these standpoints, but more that currently, I'm intrigued to learn more.

Sounds logical but doesnt explain how you feel inside when you believe you have a choice of your own. Is it a positive feeling to know that your will is your own? Would you be less of a human, if your will was determined?