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Featured God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Sep 20, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Christians believe that they were saved from original sin, but Baha'is do not believe in original sin, or that it came from Adam and Eve disobeying God by eating the fruit from the tree. However, we believe that our propensity to sin was inherited from Adam. Briefly, when Adam was born into this world, he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world. Attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam and it is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of their essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin.

    Those who acknowledged the cross sacrifice and turned toward Jesus and His teachings were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, and were delivered from the chains of bondage to the material world. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom.

    Baha'u'llah explained what the cross sacrifice achieved:

    “Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

    Do you believe that Jesus was resurrected?
    Baha'is do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus...
    What do you think was achieved many years later?
     
  2. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I have the same criticism of the writer of the gospel of Matthew. He found verses that he could stick into his gospel story. The main one is the one verse in Isaiah 7:14 about a "virgin" or was it a "young maiden"? Was it a prophecy about the Messiah or a sign for King Ahaz? Christians don't care. The rest of the context has zero to do with Jesus. So what about the verse that Baha'is use from Micah?

    Here's the verse plus the verses after that from a Jewish translation.
    Micah 7:12 There shall be a day when they shall come unto thee, from Assyria even to the cities of Egypt, and from Egypt even to the River, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
    13 And the land shall be desolate for them that dwell therein, because of the fruit of their doings.
    14 Tend Thy people with Thy staff, the flock of Thy heritage, that dwell solitarily, as a forest in the midst of the fruitful field; let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
    15 'As in the days of thy coming forth out of the land of Egypt will I show unto him marvellous things.'
    16 The nations shall see and be put to shame for all their might; they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
    17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent; like crawling things of the earth they shall come trembling out of their close places; they shall come with fear unto the LORD our God, and shall be afraid because of Thee.
    18 Who is a God like unto Thee, that pardoneth the iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He retaineth not His anger for ever, because He delighteth in mercy.
    19 He will again have compassion upon us; He will subdue our iniquities; and Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
    20 Thou wilt show faithfulness to Jacob, mercy to Abraham, as Thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.​
    About this translation...
    Our version of Mishneh Torah in its Hebrew original has been carefully edited according to the majority of the Yemenite manuscripts, and we are certain that there is today no more accurate version of Mishneh Torah available either in print or for computer.​
    So one problem... Assyria was a vast empire. Baha'is (TB) say it included the area that would someday become the city of Teheran in Iran. You say the rulers sent Baha'u'llah from Assyria to Akka? Was there a place called Assyria in the 1800's and was that where Baha'u'llah started his various exiles? Next problem. They use the KJV that says "he" will come to you. But this Jewish translations and others say "They" will come to you. I would think the Jews have a better understanding of their own language than the Christians that made the KJ translation. So who made this verse in Micah a prophecy? Is it Baha'u'llah or Abdul Baha? Or even Shoghi Effendi? If it was Bill Sears, was it approved by the Baha'i Faith as being true? If not, then is it just an opinion of Bill Sears or some other Baha'i that saw this verse in the KJV and made it fit into the journey of Baha'u'llah?

    Next problem... one verse? Really? What is this context talking about? Should it support the Baha'i belief that verse 12 is a prophecy about Baha'u'llah? I don't see that it does. And since Baha'is never go beyond that one verse, I don't think they do either. So they never mention the context. Which, to me, ain't right. It a flaw. It's manipulating Bible verses to say whatever you want them to say. It's what is doing this... "Bahaullah took parts of the bibles and interpreted them to fit his new religion."

    But if this "prophecy" was not a claim from Baha'u'llah, then who? And that's a problem and a flaw. Followers are still making up things to "prove" or "show" or "claim" that there religion and their prophet are true. And that makes skeptical people, people that actually check up on these things to verify if they are true or not, not believe in the claims of that religion. If one thing is false, then what else is?

     
  3. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure, but Christians tell me their Bible also says that if we reject Jesus we will go to hell. Everyone has a slightly different take on it.
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    NOTHING could be further from the truth.

    What evidence do you have to back up such an assertion?

    For one thing, Baha'u'llah did nit have a Bible to refer to when He was revealing His Writings, and for another thing, much of the new stuff that is in His Writings is not in the Bible. :oops::rolleyes:

    Only the spiritual teachings are the same as the older religions because the spiritual teachings are eternal.
     
  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    And again, there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. Oh, and then Baha'u'llah you say died from a fever while in prison? That doesn't fit the second coming prophecies of the Messiah from the book of Revelation. Evil and death, along with evil people and Satan, are destroyed. Do you have prophecies that say that the "Christ" will return and be put in prison and die there?
     
  6. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Same question I asked Tony... where did this "prophecy" from Micah come from? Bill Sears or some other Baha'i? Or was it from Baha'u'llah?
     
  7. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    There was not only Baha'u'llah but a whole group that chose to be exiled with him. The Faithful and many died. Over 70 made it to Akka.

    From the voyage an eye witness account.

    "In this small boat," one of the prisoners related, "we, seventy-two persons, were crowed together in unspeakable conditions for eleven days of horror. Ten soldiers and two officers were our escort. There was an appalling smell in the boat, and most of us were very ill indeed. We had embarked so hurriedly that we had been unable to provide for the voyage and a few loaves and a little cheese. . . was all the food we had for those indescribably days. . . . There was no vessel. . . our lack of food had reduced us to a seriously weak state of health."

    You can read the last part of the journey.

    From Adrianople to Akka

    Regards Tony
     
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  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It came from Micah, according to the Old Testament.
     
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  9. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    It does offer many passages that hint to that outcome.

    What is not understood as yet it that to reject Muhammad is also to reject Jesus.

    That goes for all Messengers. As such, we have a lot to consider.

    Regards Tony
     
  10. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Christ does and did not die, as also Baha'u'llah does not die. They are the same Holy Spirit in a New Name.

    The bodies we knew as Jesus and Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí have.

    Regards Tony
     
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  11. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    The Bible is dedicated to God's Word, it is timeless and contains links to all Messengers.

    It is up to us to read in the context of One God. The words and passages can say many things. The words are meant to unite us in God’s ways, thus it is up to you to see if in any way that applies to Baha'u'llah.

    The thing is, who else is it talking about? It also talks about the 40 years of the Message given to the Nations.

    Regards Tony
     
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  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Problem is, there are many prophecies but the prophecies for the coming of the Messiah are in the Old Testament, not in the convoluted Book of Revelation, which could be made to fit practically any belief anyone wants to have.

    Isaiah 53 is about Baha’u’llah, the return of the Christ Spirit that Jesus promised to send (John 14:16, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:17).

    Baha’u’llah was also the Messiah the Jews have been long awaiting.

    There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfilment.

    Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men.

    Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 can apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

    Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    • Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.
    • The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.
    Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    • I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.
    Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    • Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.
    Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    • Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.
    Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    • Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.
    Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
    • Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:
    • “Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28
    • The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the Centre of his Covenant.
    • Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.
    • These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes 4:14: “For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.”
    Comments from: Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159
     
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  13. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    We can say it does not fit one's own understanding of those passages.

    We have to ask for understanding and for me there is only One God we are to ask.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is for sure, if we read the Book of Revelation:

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    I sure cannot understand how much MORE evidence people need for Baha'u'llah. o_O:confused:

    The Bible alone is enough evidence to know who Baha'u'lah was, even if we had nothing else, but of course we do have a lot more.;)

    I cannot watch the following video without crying, :cry:I cry every time I watch it. I hope CG will watch it.

     
    #2434 Trailblazer, Oct 31, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2020
  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    No, who in the Baha'i Faith said that it was a prophecy that was fulfilled by Baha'u'llah?
     
  16. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    How convenient. Again, how do we know it's true? Because Baha'is say so. So context is out the door. One verse is all that is needed. Prophecies become useless.
     
  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Is the Bible evidence? The same Bible that is filled with "stories?" And the NT ends with "Rev 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” "20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

    Also, the main character of Revelation is this "Lamb". Baha'is have no clear interpretation of who the Lamb is. Context makes it sound like Jesus, not Baha'u'llah. Also, does the Bible tell of four Jewish Messiahs? Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Only to Baha'is. The "evidence" is so clear to you and so sketchy and vague to others. Prophecies made from a few verses with no regard to context aren't very convincing.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Sears, but also other Baha'is who interpret the Bible.
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Watch that video, as the Lamb is mentioned in a verse. Context makes it sound like Baha'u'llah, not Jesus.

    Jesus is not going to return to earth. The Bible clearly demonstrates that, and not one Christian has ever been able to explain away the verses from John below. Not only that, not one Christian has ever been bale to cite one verse where Jesus says He is going to return. It's just not there in the NT, period.


    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    What about the word FINISHED do Christians not understand?


    That is also why Jesus could not have risen from the grave, after He was crucified, because it was FINISHED. That is how we know that the resurrection stories were just stories, nothing that ever really happened.

    Does it even bother you that millions of Christians worldwide are waiting for Jesus to return, when there is absolutely no biblical evidence to support such a belief, and meanwhile those same Christians continue to reject Baha'u'llah because they are waiting for the same Jesus to return?
     
    #2439 Trailblazer, Oct 31, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2020
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  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Here are the verses I found that mention the Lamb, but I do not see any verses where it says the Lamb will return to earth.

    Revelation 5:9; Revelation 5:12; Revelation 13:8; Isaiah 53:7; John 1:29; John 1:36; 1 Peter 1:19

    9 And they sang ua new song, saying,

    “Worthy are you to take the scroll

    and to open its seals,

    for vyou were slain, and by your blood wyou ransomed people for God

    from xevery tribe and language and people and nation,

    12 saying with a loud voice,

    a“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,

    to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might

    and honor and glory and blessing!”

    8 and all awho dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in bthe book of life of cthe Lamb dwho was slain.

    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,

    syet he opened not his mouth;

    tlike a ulamb that is led to the slaughter,

    and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,

    so he opened not his mouth.

    Behold, the Lamb of God
    29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, xthe Lamb of God, who ytakes away the sin zof the world!

    36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, ithe Lamb of God!”

    19 but twith the precious blood of Christ, like that of ua lamb vwithout blemish or spot.

    Revelation 5:9; Revelation 5:12; Revelation 13:8; Isaiah 53:7; John 1:29; John 1:36; 1 Peter 1:19

     
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