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Featured Gnostics versus Christians

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Evangelicalhumanist, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    There are lots of others who don't accept that such a thing happened. And even if it did, it sounds just like the Demiurge of the ancient gnostics, who was the root cause of the problem, not the hundreds of generations he would curse for the actions of two people. Who an omniscient being would foresee that they would do anyway. So laying the bait and knowing the victim would take it, and curse all their progeny forever for it is something that people who are not modern Christians hard to accept as righteous.

    The ancient Gnostics couldn't reconcile it with Jesus and made the conclusion that it was not the same God as the Father of Jesus. Of course they paid a heavy price for it in persecution from State and Church combination. Even their gospels were destroyed, if not for some monks that saved a few of them by hiding them many would believe Iraneus and others who were writing against them.
     
    #61 Jumi, Sep 9, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  2. Enoch07

    Enoch07 Theistic Rationalist and Libertarian
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    Understandable. It was a hard pill for me to swallow as well. But after much thought and reflection I did accept it. I don't expect everyone to accept it, and because of free will they do not have to. I would not have brought it up myself, but someone else challenged it, and here we are.

    As far as setting people up to fail bit, there is a long story behind that. I could elaborate on it, but I feel that might cross the line into proselytizing so i will not.
     
  3. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, it sounds like something that is quite hard to accept. To me it would be like knowing my boss is setting me up with a loan I can never pay back and selling my children into slavery and pain.

    I don't think it would go into that territory. It's the debate section after all and you're allowed to present your case. :)
     
  4. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    I don't kill, neither does my child.

    Thanks for the confirmation that you don't mind being the alleged child of a killer, and hypocrite. Highly responsible father-figure you look up to.
     
  5. Enoch07

    Enoch07 Theistic Rationalist and Libertarian
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    Well to be honest. Its a lot of work to explain that, and for probably not much gain. I feel it does cross the line into proselytizing ultimately so those 2 things considered. I don't think its worth it.
     
  6. Enoch07

    Enoch07 Theistic Rationalist and Libertarian
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    Do you let your underage child drink? Do you let your underage child drive a car on the road?

    Or are you just as hypocritical? I'd wager you are. :)

    If your not a hypocrite I would hope someone from Dept of Family and Children services is not following the thread.
     
  7. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    Talk about an unjust "God" claiming it's just.

    All you are saying is Adam and Eve, if they are literal people.... caused their own pain while everyone else was unjustly pooped on. Unless you confirm to me that you were in Eden and also ate of the tree of knowledge, you have lied. "We" didn't cause our own pain and misery using that logic. How can we even be responsible for anything using that logic, if we were never asked to be created? The fault would lie solely upon the creator, no one else.
     
  8. Enoch07

    Enoch07 Theistic Rationalist and Libertarian
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    Thats where you getting into some deep stuff that has to do with the original revolt in Heaven. When Satan recruited 1/3 of God's children in an attempt at a spiritual coup. All of which lead to the events in Genesis 1:1. But thats what I did not want to get into so I wont elaborate further. But it is described in Revelations 12:4 if you want to explore for yourself.
     
    #68 Enoch07, Sep 9, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  9. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    That is why I included the last part of my post. There's no stretch of power inequality that would make ownership okay to me. Sentience and sapience is a non-starter, a line in the sand. At no point would power disparity would make it right to own one.

    I also am absolutely 100% anti-totalitarianism, be the would-be authority men or gods. Part of the whole might =/= right thing.
     
  10. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    As an example, leprosy.

    That is not an interpretation any of the Christian denominations I studied with had. Their interpretation was that Adam and Eve were only very shortly in the garden before the events of the tree of knowledge, and so hadn't had children yet. Not that they couldn't. God did specifically tell then that HE would multiply the pain of her birth. Not that it was just a part of their weak bodies.

    Seems awful coercive to me. You've probably seen this meme before but it really does describe how this statement sounds to many non-believers.
    [​IMG]

    I mean, plenty of atheists have converted so at least some accept it and then become Christian afterwards. But you're right that I probably won't be one today. ;)
     
  11. Enoch07

    Enoch07 Theistic Rationalist and Libertarian
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    I understand, that was also my mentality for the first half of my life. At a certain point I realized its not a might = right thing, but much deeper. Its not really something easily explained, its just one of those things I had to figure out for myself.
     
  12. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    Fair enough.
     
  13. Enoch07

    Enoch07 Theistic Rationalist and Libertarian
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    Its just another bacteria. Some are good some are bad. I would not say that bacteria are needless. They can be helpful.

    How short of a time period was they there? A week? A month? A couple of years? The Bible is vague about how much time passed in Eden
    But God was in Eden with Adam and Eve. God lives outside of time. So there is no way to say how long Adam and Eve were in Eden. 1 day with the Lord as is 1,000 years with man. Which is not an exact mathematically equation, it is just used to convey that a short period of time with God is a very long period of time compared to that of man. They could have resided in Eden for as little as 1,000 years of mans time or up to 200,000 years of mans time. I don't see why they would need to procreate. They had everything they needed, there already. And with immortality or near immortality you would not want a lot of procreation. Longer life spans = overpopulation.

    I admit it, ya got me there.:)
    .
     
  14. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    It is probably a matter of faith, let's discuss it another time if there's one where it feels comfortable. :)
     
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  15. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...

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    All I ask is that you relate all of what you just said to an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent God. I'm fine agreeing that there are good and bad people, and even (though I think it's a dumb point) that God would allow the free will of one evil person to slice the head off (and thus deny the free will of) some other person.

    But if you accept God's creative -- then you also accept that God created all the wonderful array of plants and beasts that can and frequently do kill us -- not by anybody's "free will," but just because God created it thus.

    Maybe, you suppose, it's instructive for a mother to learn that a microbe she can't see can kill her newborn, and that makes it a "good thing." But it might, JUST MIGHT, not have been such a bad thing for that same God that created that killer microbe to mention washing.

    I expect more, it appears, of "gods" than you do. You merely expect them to be great, no matter how bad it turns out for their creation. Good on you, if that works for you. It doesn't work for me.
     
  16. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    This is why ancient Gnostics thought creator(and lord of this world) couldn't be exactly good and why there was a difference between the Father of Jesus and the Demiurge. They were martyred because they couldn't find the Demiurge worthy of worship.
     
  17. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    You're assuming too much from the post in which you responded.

    It's a point you made.
    With the reality of "good" and "evil," and any belief, knowing, or knowledge of good and evil, it is clearly evident that yes if anyone accepts a creative element... that creative entity(s) must be part "evil." Which leads me to perceive that particular "Gnostics" would be more accurate in their assessment that an "evil" entity would have created this world if it were so. I also think that particular "Gnostics" believe that an "evil" entity created this world
    whereas a "good" entity(s) coupled this by instilling its "light/good" within a human being. Hence, the evident of both good and evil internally and externally.

    It neither works for myself, so if I do know or were to know, or seek, or believe... it would be in "good." Nothing "evil." But then it would perhaps take wisdom to determine what may be truly "good" or "evil" to begin with if those are objective truths/realities.

    Perhaps things may be both deterministically-willed and free-willed.
     
    #77 Profound Realization, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
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  18. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    If you are really interested in what the Christian view of the problem of evil and suffering (Theodicy) in the world is, I refer you to my post 50 on page 3 in which I offered you 2 resources that explains our position. If you would like to look it up.
     
  19. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...

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    I did read it, and found it somewhat less than useful. Just for example, the first resource that you gave me comes up with the wonderfully useless conclusion (you can read it for yourself) that, while it is true that God is all good and all powerful, and God wants what is best for everybody, and still there is much suffering -- the reason is that "God has a reason, but you can't know it."

    In other words, just one more thing that you have to accept on faith even though everything that you can reason about it says it is false.

    This is not an argument -- it is the use of too many words to appeal to those who haven't the patience to read them thoroughly and understand that they're being duped by a charlatan who wouldn't know logic if it bit him.

    I have read more theodicies than you imagine -- and have found every single one of them, without exception, to eventually find some way to avoid reason and appeal to belief in despite of reason. And that (you may be surprised to hear me say it) is unreasonable.
     
  20. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    Regarding your response to the first article by Michael Patton - The Five Responses to the Problem of Evil and your statement that it avoids reason is noteworthy in light of the fact that he states: "The intellectual problem of evil attempts to address a logical problem in a world that has pain, suffering, and evil, yet has a good and all-powerful God who rules it." He then offers this rational question: "Therefore we begin to question God’s role in all of this. And we are brought to this dilemma. If God exists, if God is good and does not like evil, and if God is powerful enough to change things, why does evil still exist?"

    Beginning with this syllogism:

    The intellectual problem of evil attempts to address a logical problem in a world that has pain, suffering, and evil, yet has a good and all-powerful God who rules it. Let me define this problem using a syllogism:
    • Premise 1: God is all-good (omnibenevolent)
    • Premise 2: God is all-powerful (omnipotent)
    • Premise 3: Suffering and evil exist
    Moving on to your worldview, the Atheistic worldview, he states: "Conclusion: An all-good, all-powerful God could not exist since there is so much suffering and evil in the world. If he did, he would eradicate this evil." offering this syllogism:
    • Premise 1: God is all-good (omnibenevolent) denied
    • Premise 2: God is all-powerful (omnipotent) denied
    • Premise 3: Suffering and evil exist
    Patton refers to Genesis 50 where Joseph and his brothers attend the death of their father Israel. His brothers, because of jealousy, sold him to the Egyptians where, in time, he was cast into prison.

    "When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “What if Joseph bears a grudge against us and pays us back in full for all the wrong which we did to him!” 16 So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father charged before he died, saying, 17 ‘Thus you shall say to Joseph, “Please forgive, I beg you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, for they did you wrong.”’ And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” And Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18 Then his brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.” 19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

    In the Atheistic worldview pain and suffering have no purpose. In the Atheistic worldview, which denies the supernatural, the laws of logic or reason cannot be accounted for and therefore to apply to them in an argument is irrational.

    Patton rightly states: "God meant it for good.” Therefore, the intellectual problem of evil can be dealt with without sacrificing intellectual integrity. In fact, as we look through the options, the Christian option is the option that makes the most rational sense."

    His whole article dealt with "logic" and "reason" and your deliberate misquoting him - "the wonderfully useless conclusion (you can read it for yourself) that, while it is true that God is all good and all powerful, and God wants what is best for everybody, and still there is much suffering -- the reason is that "God has a reason, but you can't know it." fully demonstrates that your absurd argument must prevaricate to claim to win a rational debate. What was actually stated was:

    "Conclusion: God has good reasons for allowing suffering and evil to exist. He uses suffering and evil to accomplish a greater good, even if we never know exactly what that reason is." https://credohouse.org/blog/the-five-responses-to-the-problem-of-evil

    Unlike Open Theism or Deism, in the Christian faith, "God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble." Ps.46:1

    Not only that but when God the Son took on human nature (yet without sin) He, Himself suffered: Heb.4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

    Isaiah 53:1 Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. 3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. 4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
    He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth;
    Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
    And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. 10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.
     
    #80 Rick B, Sep 17, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
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