Getting stoned!!#$&*. Where does it come from?

[firedragon]

Stoning to death as a punishment occurs in the Tanakh and is prescribed even for people who try to convert people away from YHWH, and then when a bride is not a virgin at the time of marriage, and maybe we could say "etc". Well, the Qur'an doesn't have any stoning or Rajm in it whatsoever.

Everyone knows that there are several ahadith that propagate Rajm or stoning like one where it says the part of the Qur'an that had this verse written was eaten by a goat during the prophet Muhammed's funeral days, and then there is another hadith where a man speaks to a monkey who tells him that they are stoning another monkey for adultery. Strangely, the miracle of a man speaking monkey language has not been made famous as one of the biggest miracles, said as a side note.

Nevertheless, does not the question arise that since the Qur'an which is supposed to be the Furqan or the criterion for Islamic theology does not mention stoning anywhere, how does one content that rajm entered the theology? Was it a Biblical tradition that somehow crept into Islam? If not, did someone just invent it? What is the reasoning behind the adoption of this practice? What do we know?

 

[sun rise]

Good question. I don't know of anything before Judaism but maybe someone else here does.

 

[Augustus]

If not, did someone just invent it?

IIRC there is a hadith about the Quranic verse that legitimised stoning being eaten by a goat.

I'm pretty certain someone just invented that story at least...

 

[firedragon]

IIRC there is a hadith about the Quranic verse that legitimised stoning being eaten by a goat.

Everyone knows that there are several ahadith that propagate Rajm or stoning like one where it says the part of the Qur'an that had this verse written was eaten by a goat during the prophet Muhammed's funeral days, and then t

 

[BSM1]

Wow, man....that's heavy...

 

[PearlSeeker]

 

[oldbadger]

Getting stoned.......
The term was apploed through the Old English use of 'Stone Deaf' and 'Stone Blind' . A stone could neither hear nor see.

In a drunken stupor a person was 'stoned'.

That's my suggestion.

 

[`mud]

BUT...... you've never been there !

 

[firedragon]

Haha. Yep, thats what I said.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Stoning to death as a punishment occurs in the Tanakh and is prescribed even for people who try to convert people away from YHWH, and then when a bride is not a virgin at the time of marriage, and maybe we could say "etc". Well, the Qur'an doesn't have any stoning or Rajm in it whatsoever.

Everyone knows that there are several ahadith that propagate Rajm or stoning like one where it says the part of the Qur'an that had this verse written was eaten by a goat during the prophet Muhammed's funeral days, and then there is another hadith where a man speaks to a monkey who tells him that they are stoning another monkey for adultery. Strangely, the miracle of a man speaking monkey language has not been made famous as one of the biggest miracles, said as a side note.

Nevertheless, does not the question arise that since the Qur'an which is supposed to be the Furqan or the criterion for Islamic theology does not mention stoning anywhere, how does one content that rajm entered the theology? Was it a Biblical tradition that somehow crept into Islam? If not, did someone just invent it? What is the reasoning behind the adoption of this practice? What do we know?

LOL!
When I read the thread title, I tought it was a thread about getting high on weed

I just got high on weed though, maybe that's why....


As for your thread topic, I think the quran, and islam in general, clearly is a mishmash of several religions and that plenty of things of those religions somehow crept into islam. Why wouldn't stoning be one of them? It's just one of many after all.

 

[firedragon]

LOL!
When I read the thread title, I tought it was a thread about getting high on weed

I just got high on weed though, maybe that's why....


As for your thread topic, I think the quran, and islam in general, clearly is a mishmash of several religions and that plenty of things of those religions somehow crept into islam. Why wouldn't stoning be one of them? It's just one of many after all.

Haha. Yeah. I concur with the topic's connotation.

Anyway, your answer is just general rhetoric. But thanks.

 

[Deeje]

Was it a Biblical tradition that somehow crept into Islam? If not, did someone just invent it? What is the reasoning behind the adoption of this practice? What do we know?

Well, it was part of God's law that those guilty of certain offenses were to be stoned to death, but I too have often wondered why that method was used.
Before a wrongdoer could be stoned, at least two witnesses had to give substantiated testimony against him/them, and thereafter they cast the first stones, others would then join in carrying out the sentence. Perhaps it was a way of making sure that those who had an accusation to bring knew that they would have to begin the process. And it allowed the people to demonstrate that they upheld God's law by coming together to punish the guilty parties. It meant not having a single individual as an executioner, and perhaps it would not be known who threw the fatal stone(s)?

Stones were always available and no special instrument was needed to carry out the sentence.....just my musings....

 

[firedragon]

Well, it was part of God's law that those guilty of certain offenses were to be stoned to death, but I too have often wondered why that method was used.
Before a wrongdoer could be stoned, at least two witnesses had to give substantiated testimony against him/them, and thereafter they cast the first stones, others would then join in carrying out the sentence. Perhaps it was a way of making sure that those who had an accusation to bring knew that they would have to begin the process. And it allowed the people to demonstrate that they upheld God's law by coming together to punish the guilty parties. It meant not having a single individual as an executioner, and perhaps it would not be known who threw the fatal stone(s)?

Stones were always available and no special instrument was needed to carry out the sentence.....just my musings....

When did Muslims start using this? Its not in the Quran.

 

[Rival]

Well, it was part of God's law that those guilty of certain offenses were to be stoned to death, but I too have often wondered why that method was used.
Before a wrongdoer could be stoned, at least two witnesses had to give substantiated testimony against him/them, and thereafter they cast the first stones, others would then join in carrying out the sentence. Perhaps it was a way of making sure that those who had an accusation to bring knew that they would have to begin the process. And it allowed the people to demonstrate that they upheld God's law by coming together to punish the guilty parties. It meant not having a single individual as an executioner, and perhaps it would not be known who threw the fatal stone(s)?

Stones were always available and no special instrument was needed to carry out the sentence.....just my musings....

In Judaism stoning is not done by throwing stones at an individual. The individual is pushed from a high place and if not dead after then a large stone (or possibly stones) is used.

 

[firedragon]

In Judaism stoning is not done by throwing stones at an individual. The individual is pushed from a high place and if not dead after then a large stone (or possibly stones) is used.

Thats interesting. Where is this taught? You mean in the Tanakh or something else?

This is what I know. In judaism as in stipulated in the Mishna, Skeela or stoning is a punishment for various things but the act of doing it is just "stoning". Pick up stones and stone them until the person is dead.

Thus, Id like to know more. Cheers.

 

[Rival]

Thats interesting. Where is this taught? You mean in the Tanakh or something else?

This is what I know. In judaism as in stipulated in the Mishna, Skeela or stoning is a punishment for various things but the act of doing it is just "stoning". Pick up stones and stone them until the person is dead.

Thus, Id like to know more. Cheers.

From the Mishna, found in Sanhedrin 45a in the Talmud:

MISHNA: The place of stoning from which the condemned man is pushed to his death is a platform twice the height of an ordinary person. He is made to stand at the edge of the platform, and then one of the witnesses who testified against him pushes him down by the hips, so that he falls face up onto the ground. If he turned over onto his chest, with his face downward, the witness turns him over onto his hips. And if he dies through this fall to the ground, the obligation to stone the transgressor is fulfilled. And if the condemned man does not die from his fall, the second witness takes the stone that has been prepared for this task and places, i.e., casts, it on his chest. And if he dies with the casting of this first stone, the obligation to stone the transgressor is fulfilled. And if he does not die with the casting of this stone, then his stoning is completed by all of the Jewish people, i.e., by all the people who assembled for the execution, as it is stated: “The hand of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people” (Deuteronomy 17:7).

Sanhedrin 45a:11

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Anyway, your answer is just general rhetoric. But thanks.

It's meant quite serious though.
Clearly the quran is a mixture of christian and jewish religion, with some own sauce on top.
I mean, it tells much the same stories and stuff... It's an abrahamic religion.

So I don't think it's surprising to see influences from judaism and christianity pop-up left and right... be it in the quran or in the hadith.

So if you ask where it came from in the islamic narrative, I think it's rather obvious that the answer is that it was adopted from judaism / christianity.

 

[firedragon]

It's meant quite serious though.
Clearly the quran is a mixture of christian and jewish religion, with some own sauce on top.
I mean, it tells much the same stories and stuff... It's an abrahamic religion.

So I don't think it's surprising to see influences from judaism and christianity pop-up left and right... be it in the quran or in the hadith.

So if you ask where it came from in the islamic narrative, I think it's rather obvious that the answer is that it was adopted from judaism / christianity.

The post is about the Quran not having stoning in it.

So you’re saying Muslims adopted the Jewish teachings of stoning after the Quran? At what point do you think?

 

[firedragon]

From the Mishna, found in Sanhedrin 45a in the Talmud:

MISHNA: The place of stoning from which the condemned man is pushed to his death is a platform twice the height of an ordinary person. He is made to stand at the edge of the platform, and then one of the witnesses who testified against him pushes him down by the hips, so that he falls face up onto the ground. If he turned over onto his chest, with his face downward, the witness turns him over onto his hips. And if he dies through this fall to the ground, the obligation to stone the transgressor is fulfilled. And if the condemned man does not die from his fall, the second witness takes the stone that has been prepared for this task and places, i.e., casts, it on his chest. And if he dies with the casting of this first stone, the obligation to stone the transgressor is fulfilled. And if he does not die with the casting of this stone, then his stoning is completed by all of the Jewish people, i.e., by all the people who assembled for the execution, as it is stated: “The hand of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people” (Deuteronomy 17:7).

Sanhedrin 45a:11

Great. But it’s not meant as a death by falling in this. Death is by stoning isn’t it?

 

[Rival]

Great. But it’s not meant as a death by falling in this. Death is by stoning isn’t it?

'And if he dies through this fall to the ground, the obligation to stone the transgressor is fulfilled.'