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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I sincerely doubt it would happen in the US. There’d be too many riots lol
Maybe in my country. But there’s been no proposals put forth (yet.)
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Article: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory - CNN

Honestly this all seems (and they also mention the fining planned for Greece) rather like an overreaction to me. Do y'all think this will come to the US? Either mandatory vaccinations nationwide or a monthly fine for not being vaccinated.
I can see how some are going to try, given the elements out there that like to rule by mandate.

In the US it's arguably political suicide for compulsory vaccination and fines to be instituted.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Article: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory - CNN

Honestly this all seems (and they also mention the fining planned for Greece) rather like an overreaction to me. Do y'all think this will come to the US? Either mandatory vaccinations nationwide or a monthly fine for not being vaccinated.

Monthly fines? ?

I think Germany is (over?)reacting to the surge in Covid cases they are experiencing right now... having managed to avoid most of the impact of the virus up until now. But guess what? Germany relaxed its covid restrictions because they had been doing so well and because about 67% of Germany is vaccinated. Germany now has set a goal of 80% vaccination.

South Korea has also been doing very well up until now. They relaxed Covid restrictions because they have a 79.4% vaccination rate (close to 80%) and now South Korea is setting record numbers of covid deaths.

For reference, 42.7% of the world is vaccinated.

I don't think either Germany or South Korea realized that their vaccination rate had nothing to do with their low Covid numbers.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Monthly fines? ?

I think Germany is (over?)reacting to the surge in Covid cases they are experiencing right now... having managed to avoid most of the impact of the virus up until now. But guess what? Germany relaxed its covid restrictions because they had been doing so well and because about 67% of Germany is vaccinated. Germany now has set a goal of 80% vaccination.

South Korea has also been doing very well up until now. They relaxed Covid restrictions because they have a 79.4% vaccination rate (close to 80%) and now South Korea is setting record numbers of covid deaths.

For reference, 42.7% of the world is vaccinated.

I don't think either Germany or South Korea realized that their vaccination rate had nothing to do with their low Covid numbers.
See this is why I’m a little cautious about my state opening borders. Even though I have a selfish reason for wanting them open ASAP. The Omicron variant has apparently spiked in other states. So whilst I’m not particularly worried about my state relaxing restrictions (because we reached out vaccination goals first) I am a little apprehensive of the wider ramifications of relaxing restrictions on a bigger scale. At least right this minute. Once Omicron is contained then whatever. But people are being whiny spoilt brats and crying because of the restrictions. (Not everyone mind you. But I mean bigger picture guys!)
We did that earlier. Relaxed as soon as we were able to, only to have to lockdown again and again and again. Due to outbreaks.

We all seem to get complacent at the first hint of success. Like you said, Germany avoided the brunt but opened too quickly and suffered for it. As did we all, to varying degrees
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Honestly this all seems (and they also mention the fining planned for Greece) rather like an overreaction to me. Do y'all think this will come to the US? Either mandatory vaccinations nationwide or a monthly fine for not being vaccinated.

Probably not going to happen in USA. However, I would like to see insurance companies stop paying for doctors and hospitalizations for COVID treatment who is not vaccinated. By extension, hospitals would not accept people whose insurance will not cover the bills without a large up-front payment.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Article: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory - CNN

Honestly this all seems (and they also mention the fining planned for Greece) rather like an overreaction to me. Do y'all think this will come to the US? Either mandatory vaccinations nationwide or a monthly fine for not being vaccinated.
Biden's trying the mandatory jabs, but a judge put a hold on it. It will likely go to the Supreme Court, where they will decide the constitutionality of it (will be interesting to see how Biden's lawyers torture the Constitution).
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
See this is why I’m a little cautious about my state opening borders. Even though I have a selfish reason for wanting them open ASAP. The Omicron variant has apparently spiked in other states. So whilst I’m not particularly worried about my state relaxing restrictions (because we reached out vaccination goals first) I am a little apprehensive of the wider ramifications of relaxing restrictions on a bigger scale. At least right this minute. Once Omicron is contained then whatever. But people are being whiny spoilt brats and crying because of the restrictions. (Not everyone mind you. But I mean bigger picture guys!)
We did that earlier. Relaxed as soon as we were able to, only to have to lockdown again and again and again. Due to outbreaks.

We all seem to get complacent at the first hint of success. Like you said, Germany avoided the brunt but opened too quickly and suffered for it. As did we all, to varying degrees

There are different ways of being open or closed as well. Local lockdowns encourage people to remain indoors where the virus spreads more easily. Global lockdowns that restrict travel between localities is a serious impediment to viral spread.

If you aren't worried about relaxing restrictions because your your state reached its vaccination goals, then it's the wrong reason to be unworried. Germany and South Korea felt confident in relaxing their restrictions because so many of their populations had been vacccinated.

The primary factor in Covid cases is seasonality.
The secondary factor is Global restriction.
The tertiary factor is efficacy and availability of treatments for the infected.
The quaternary factor is individual behaviors such as masking and socially restricting.
And somewhere way down near the bottom of the list of factors is vaccination.

Extreme measures can be effective at a cost. These include things such as Local lockdown which forces people to remain indoors (confined space) with other potentially infected carriers. This is the sort of measure you use when you've decided to sacrifice one group of people to save another group of people.

Why is vaccination so low on the list? Because it is one of the least efficient methods of targeting potentially infected individuals. The vast majority of people who are vaccinated don't ever get exposed to the virus. To put things in perspective, approximately 266,420,034 of the 7.9 billion people worldwide have been confirmed to have been exposed to Covid to date. That's roughly 3.37% of the world. Other methods on the list are simply more relevant to the question of who actually gets infected and more effective at containing the spread among infected individuals. This is why we can expect vaccination rate to have a very small effect on the spread of Covid. In fact, no one knows what percent of the population needs to be vaccinated before it actually begins to have a meaningful impact. 80% is just speculation because no one actually knows. There's reason to believe that even 100% vaccination will not stop the spread simply because the virus can and does infect and spread among some people who have been vaccinated.

On the other hand, requiring a person to quarantine when traveling is very immediately effective for stopping spread. Treatments such as monoclonal antibodies can greatly reduce spread by directly targetting infected individuals immediately. The seasonal ups and downs of viruses is not something people fully understand, but it is unquestionably the biggest factor. The virus always spreads orders of magnitude more when it is in its most active season.

I'm cautiously optimistic about omicron. At the moment, it looks as if omicron has the potential to end the pandemic.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
And when it loses, the number of cases will continue to spike. Those spikes may lead to shuttering restaurants, bars, and churches.

Then you will complain about that.

Not sure a heathen would complain about the Churches, but who knows, anything is possible.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The primary factor in Covid cases is seasonality.
The secondary factor is Global restriction.
The tertiary factor is efficacy and availability of treatments for the infected.
The quaternary factor is individual behaviors such as masking and socially restricting.
And somewhere way down near the bottom of the list of factors is vaccination.

And somewhere below that bottom is your knowledge of the way epidemics work.

Why is vaccination so low on the list? Because it is one of the least efficient methods of targeting potentially infected individuals.

The purpose of a vaccine is not to target potentially infected individuals. Where do you get this nonsense from?

The vast majority of people who are vaccinated don't ever get exposed to the virus.

If the vast majority was vaccinated there would be fewer people getting infected and therefore fewer people to expose others - vaccinated or not.

It really is quite simple. It was proved with the polio vaccine and the MMR vaccine.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
In the US it's arguably political suicide for compulsory vaccination and fines to be instituted.
I would have thought so.
It's typical of mankind, imo, that we always want to blame our troubles on others.
While I believe that vaccination has helped us in the fight against the virus, I don't believe that it is the only thing that will save us from disaster.

It is more fundamental than that. It is no coincidence, imo, that this pandemic is happening .. just as climate-change is no coincidence either.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
If the vast majority was vaccinated there would be fewer people getting infected and therefore fewer people to expose others - vaccinated or not.

It really is quite simple. It was proved with the polio vaccine and the MMR vaccine.
Is it that simple? Not really. The virus continues to mutate.
We are in for the long haul, I would imagine.
Vaccination isn't a cure, just a sticking plaster.

The cure is in people being willing to make sacrifices, and not just blaming others, while they themselves just carry on as if nothing is happening because they are vaccinated.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Biden's trying the mandatory jabs, but a judge put a hold on it. It will likely go to the Supreme Court, where they will decide the constitutionality of it (will be interesting to see how Biden's lawyers torture the Constitution).

This is one of the few times I thank the gods for a right leaning court.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
If the numbers keep climbing the UK will have to lockdown again or the hospitals will be overrun (again). Given the abject nature of our government I'm confident it will be done too late (as previously).

Mandatory vaccination has been ruled constitutional before over a century ago. Not Breaking News: Mandatory Vaccination Has Been Constitutional for Over a Century

Of course it remains to be seen whether the current far right Court overturns y et another long-standing precedent.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Is it that simple? Not really. The virus continues to mutate.
We are in for the long haul, I would imagine.
Vaccination isn't a cure, just a sticking plaster.


How is it that the virus is mutating? It's because, with each infected person, the is a tiny chance of a mutation.

If ten million people are unvaccinated, that is ten million people that can get and spread the virus giving it a chance to mutate.

If 80% (eight million) of those people are vaccinated, there are fewer "carriers" in which mutations can occur. It's simple math and proven science.

The cure is in people being willing to make sacrifices, and not just blaming others, while they themselves just carry on as if nothing is happening because they are vaccinated.

The vaccinated people are the ones making sacrifices. We still wear masks. We still live under restrictions. We know we are less likely to get very sick or die. But we recognize that, because of those who refuse to get vaccinated, there is still a danger that everyone has to live with.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
If ten million people are unvaccinated, that is ten million people that can get and spread the virus giving it a chance to mutate.
People who are vaccinated can also contract the virus, so no .. it doesn't follow that it can no longer mutate.

If 80% (eight million) of those people are vaccinated, there are fewer "carriers" in which mutations can occur. It's simple math and proven science.
80% of the whole world, or 80% of one particular nation?

The vaccinated people are the ones making sacrifices. We still wear masks. We still live under restrictions. We know we are less likely to get very sick or die. But we recognize that, because of those who refuse to get vaccinated, there is still a danger that everyone has to live with.
Yes .. that's reality I'm afraid.
Compulsory vaccination in one country can't stop it running riot in another..
Are you advocating that travel in future should only be permitted from high vaccination countries?

There are many reasons why certain diseases no longer pose a major threat to mankind.
Vaccination is merely one of them.
 
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