Gentiles in Christianity

[Treks]

Hello

When Gentiles read the New Testament, what do you think of parts such as Jesus and the Gentile Woman (where Jesus was not inclined to help the woman because she was not Jewish) and Paul's letter to the Romans where he reminds Gentiles that they are a branch of a wild olive tree, and the Jews are a branch of God's holy olive tree, but because the Jew's weren't getting it, God cut off the Jewish branch and grafted the Gentile branch in place, until all the Gentiles accept God, wherein the Jews will b saved. Paul reminds the Gentiles not to get haughty before the Jews, because if God can cut off he Jewish branch which actually belongs on the holy olive tree, he'll be even quicker to cut off the foreign branch from the wild olive tree.

Do you get the feeling that you're not really welcome, or at the very least, you're pawns to get the Jews back and will thereafter be discarded?

Thanks

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

To me, it's about being humble. I'm not sure where you're getting a notion of being pawns from.

 

[Kemosloby]

Hello

When Gentiles read the New Testament, what do you think of parts such as Jesus and the Gentile Woman (where Jesus was not inclined to help the woman because she was not Jewish) and Paul's letter to the Romans where he reminds Gentiles that they are a branch of a wild olive tree, and the Jews are a branch of God's holy olive tree, but because the Jew's weren't getting it, God cut off the Jewish branch and grafted the Gentile branch in place, until all the Gentiles accept God, wherein the Jews will b saved. Paul reminds the Gentiles not to get haughty before the Jews, because if God can cut off he Jewish branch which actually belongs on the holy olive tree, he'll be even quicker to cut off the foreign branch from the wild olive tree.

Do you get the feeling that you're not really welcome, or at the very least, you're pawns to get the Jews back and will thereafter be discarded?

Thanks

Not at all, It is what it is. The Jews had to do a lot of work keeping the law etc. but the Gentiles basically get a free ride. It sort of balances itself out..

 

[Deeje]

Hello

When Gentiles read the New Testament, what do you think of parts such as Jesus and the Gentile Woman (where Jesus was not inclined to help the woman because she was not Jewish) and Paul's letter to the Romans where he reminds Gentiles that they are a branch of a wild olive tree, and the Jews are a branch of God's holy olive tree, but because the Jew's weren't getting it, God cut off the Jewish branch and grafted the Gentile branch in place, until all the Gentiles accept God, wherein the Jews will b saved. Paul reminds the Gentiles not to get haughty before the Jews, because if God can cut off he Jewish branch which actually belongs on the holy olive tree, he'll be even quicker to cut off the foreign branch from the wild olive tree.

Do you get the feeling that you're not really welcome, or at the very least, you're pawns to get the Jews back and will thereafter be discarded?

Thanks

If you look at the promise that God made to Abraham, then Gentiles were always in his plans for mankind.

Genesis 22:17-18:
"I will most certainly bless you; and I will most certainly increase your descendants to as many as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the cities of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed — because you obeyed my order.” (CJB)

He just needed a nation of people to whom he gave his laws to demonstrate what happens when people obey him....and what happens when they don't. He recorded their experiences and examples in a book for our instruction. (Romans 15:4-6)
Contrast these people with Gentile nations who never had God's laws and there is your living history lesson.
If they remained obedient and faithful, God would make sure that all the blessings he wanted mankind to share would come through the faithful ones of that nation. They ended up being the disciples of Jesus Christ.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Do you get the feeling that you're not really welcome, or at the very least, you're pawns to get the Jews back and will thereafter be discarded?

Thanks

What good is an answer that isn't pedantic? Don't answer that. Your question cannot be answered without reference to the Reformation and schism in the church.

Jews are hostages in a debate with Christians, because they have the most to lose in a conversation about the Bible, it being theirs. They are the ones with their necks sticking out if the Bible is used for ill purposes. Whenever someone criticizes Christians, Jews often get included. So, no we are not pawns of the Jews. They are our hostages for the time being. They are manipulated by seemingly arbitrary winds of change.

The Roman church (pre-Anglican) resisted allowing the Bible be translated into English, because the church felt that people would totally misunderstand it without learning the original languages and without some education. The church was correct about that, although the church organization spread harmful superstitions and was generally very disappointing, badly managed and corrupted by politics. It lost the good faith of many people. Some people got upset enough about the general state of ignorance of the populace and of the clergy that they illegally translated the Bible, thus liberating it and placing it into the hands of ignorant English readers. The idea was to force the church to reform and give people a chance which partially worked. Partially it was like exploding a bomb, because lots of Christians got hurt although some reform did result. A lot of Jews got hurt as a result, too.

As for your question about getting the Jews back into Israel and whether we are being manipulated, no; but we did want them in Israel yes although not until after the Reformation and for unanticipated reasons. Actually the events leading to Christians wanting to re-create Israel were quite unanticipated. My understanding is that this came about because the Bible got printed in English, then distributed in mostly rural USA. After that many Christians in USA, mostly poor folks, began to focus on literal interpretations of the Bible, we began to hire our own ministers who preached what we wanted to hear. We rejected previous institutions and started over. We wanted to hear that Jesus would fly down from heaven someday, save everyone from troubles and end all suffering and woe, so that was what was preached. We also began to speculate that in order for Jesus to fly down, Israel would have to be created first.

There is a craze among those Christians who expect Jesus to literally fly down from heaven barefoot that Israel must become a country before he does; but its not originally the mission of the church nor of Christians. 'Scripturally' there is a New Jerusalem from heaven which will be in people through the church, and the church is fulfilling the role of Christ on Earth, already. We don't need Jews to live in Isreal or need Jesus to fly down barefoot in a robe to alight upon the Mt. of Olives., but in recent centuries protestants have started to think that we do as a result of a Bible printed in English and a complete rejection of the Roman church including its scholarship. (A very much deserved rejection. There was no avoiding it.)

The formation of Israel has been a favorite with among various reformed Christians since about three centuries ago. You can read about various ideas of what political events might bring it to pass in all kinds of old protestant publications. The formation of Israel is looked at as an extremely exciting and wonderful prospect. In fact to me it feels likely though I have no evidence that it was protestant Christians who managed somehow to get Israel to become a country, using the horror of WWII as an opportunity to make it happen. We brought the subject up frequently for well over a hundred years and envisioned it; thus creating the conditions for it to happen I think. Jews did not put us up to it and were not really that interested in forming a country in old Israel territory, not until Theodore Herzl; but who do you think got Herzl to be interested? He was known for interacting with protestants in Germany, and he was the founder of modern Zionism -- but not really. Actually protestant Christians are, and we continue to be its primary strength. Many, many of us are still hoping Jesus will fly down and alight on the Mt., barefoot.

 

[Beth Stitely]

No, I'm not feeling like a pawn at all but rather grateful for God's love and grace. Jesus said that he had others who belonged to him that were not Jewish (John 10:16).
It's also important to keep in mind the audience Paul was writing to in the letter to the Romans. Here's the background: In 49AD, Claudius the Roman emperor issued an edict that forced all the Jews (including Christian Jews) to leave Rome. He expelled them because they were having intense internal confrontations over "Christus" which may have been a reference to Christ or an imposter of Jesus. About 40,000 Jews left Rome (Acts 18:2) so the church left behind was only made up of Gentiles. The next emperor, Nero, then invited the Jews to return. But the Gentile believers had a new attitude towards those returning because they they thought their expulsion was a divine act. As a result, the Jewish believers were not warmly welcomed back. So Paul was writing to the church in Rome to prevent it from splitting into two factions: one Jewish and the other Gentile.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hello

When Gentiles read the New Testament, what do you think of parts such as Jesus and the Gentile Woman (where Jesus was not inclined to help the woman because she was not Jewish) and Paul's letter to the Romans where he reminds Gentiles that they are a branch of a wild olive tree, and the Jews are a branch of God's holy olive tree, but because the Jew's weren't getting it, God cut off the Jewish branch and grafted the Gentile branch in place, until all the Gentiles accept God, wherein the Jews will b saved. Paul reminds the Gentiles not to get haughty before the Jews, because if God can cut off he Jewish branch which actually belongs on the holy olive tree, he'll be even quicker to cut off the foreign branch from the wild olive tree.

Do you get the feeling that you're not really welcome, or at the very least, you're pawns to get the Jews back and will thereafter be discarded?

Thanks

Josephus informs us that Jesus had various different followers, but more directly, the Jewish or Israelite followers of Jesu, were not "lost", literally, presumably? Whether Essenic, or other, this cant be literal.
JESU taught everywhere, He does not discriminate. This is in stark contrast to /ethnic exclusivism, a belies a religion that is theism based without a focus on adherents pre-tendencies.

 

[Treks]

Thanks for the responses, particularly the references to other parts of Bible scripture, @Deeje and @Beth Stitely .

Romans 11 is a tricky chapter. Perhaps it's just in Paul''s delivery. But it sounds (to me, an outsider) like he's saying that the Jews will only improve if they become jealous of the Gentiles success, which the Gentiles will get now that God has accepted them.

The other bits of scripture, and he historical context, do help with understanding it.

Thanks

 

[pearl]

(A very much deserved rejection. There was no avoiding it.)

What is it about Catholic scholarship that deserved rejection? Especially since the Church does not teach a literalist interpretation of the Bible.

 

[wizanda]

Do you get the feeling that you're not really welcome, or at the very least, you're pawns to get the Jews back and will thereafter be discarded?

Won't be discarded, as some of the Jews perceive that the Goyim will be their slaves in the time to come.

Deuteronomy 15:5-6 if only you diligently listen to Yahweh your God’s voice, to observe to do all this commandment which I command you today. (6) For Yahweh your God will bless you, as he promised you. You will lend to many nations, but you will not borrow. You will rule over many nations, but they will not rule over you.

Isaiah 61:5-6 Strangers will stand and feed your flocks, and foreigners will work your fields and your vineyards. (6) But you will be called Yahweh’s priests. Men will call you the servants of our God. You will eat the wealth of the nations, and you will boast in their glory.

We should also read what the Talmud says about Goyim, as then it is clear how Goyim are seen as lesser beings.

 

[Deeje]

the Gentile believers had a new attitude towards those returning because they they thought their expulsion was a divine act. As a result, the Jewish believers were not warmly welcomed back. So Paul was writing to the church in Rome to prevent it from splitting into two factions: one Jewish and the other Gentile.

The apostles quest was for unity and peace among all Christians as Paul wrote to the Gentile believers in Ephesus.....

Ephesians 2:11-16:
"....that you were at that time without the Messiah, alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who used to be far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, the one who made both groups into one and who destroyed the middle wall of partition, the hostility, 15 when he nullified in his flesh the law of commandments in decrees. He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace, 16 and to reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by which the hostility has been killed."

Christ's death was to create one united body of believers from all nations.....to break down the barriers that once divided them, thus fulfilling the purpose of the Abrahamic covenant.

 

[Estro Felino]

Won't be discarded, as some of the Jews perceive that the Goyim will be their slaves in the time to come.

Deuteronomy 15:5-6 if only you diligently listen to Yahweh your God’s voice, to observe to do all this commandment which I command you today. (6) For Yahweh your God will bless you, as he promised you. You will lend to many nations, but you will not borrow. You will rule over many nations, but they will not rule over you.

Isaiah 61:5-6 Strangers will stand and feed your flocks, and foreigners will work your fields and your vineyards. (6) But you will be called Yahweh’s priests. Men will call you the servants of our God. You will eat the wealth of the nations, and you will boast in their glory.

We should also read what the Talmud says about Goyim, as then it is clear how Goyim are seen as lesser beings.

Lol...the emoji with the halo makes me burst out laughing every time.
Btw,,..wizanda....I think you focus too much on what Jews think about Gentiles...and I read so many posts of you, in which you always underline the same thing, that is, the eternal antipathy of Jews towards non-Jews
You and I agree on the fact that Paul and Jesus say completely opposite things....that's a good start.

The problem is created when people try to reconcile two completely different worlds: the Jewish one and the Hellenistic one. These two mindsets are completely irreconcilable..
and I know because there's something in my DNA that makes me understand the Greek mindset totally, and consequently I understand nothing about the Jewish vision of the world, which is based upon exclusivity of cultures, and not coexistence of cultures (as in Hellenism).

By the way...I am sure those videos you posted are just anti-Jewish propaganda....and they cannot be used to portray what most Jews think.

 

[wizanda]

I am sure those videos you posted are just anti-Jewish propaganda

The second video is a Jew interviewing both secular, and Orthodox Jews in Israel, and showing that it depends on religious views.

The first video is two Orthodox Jews discussing Talmudic understanding, all these things are stated in the texts; none of it is antisemitic, these are just the facts of what some Jews believe.

I understand nothing about the Jewish vision of the world, which is based upon exclusivity of cultures, and not coexistence of cultures

There does seem to be a lot of racism, and bigotry; not sure based on all texts, that all the Jews will ever see the Goyim as equals.

 

[Jedster]

Lol...the emoji with the halo makes me burst out laughing every time.
....... he is obviously a saint who complains about Jews putting up anti-Muslim stuff,
By the way...I am sure those videos you posted are just anti-Jewish propaganda....and they cannot be used to portray what most Jews think.
hey it's okay for
his Sainthood allows him to spread anti-Jewish stuff

Let's face it there are still people around who are angry that the Jews still exists.

 

[Treks]

The second video is a Jew interviewing both secular, and Orthodox Jews in Israel, and showing that it depends on religious views.

The first video is two Orthodox Jews discussing Talmudic understanding, all these things are stated in the texts; none of it is anti-Semitic, these are just the facts of what some Jews believe.

There does seem to be a lot of racism, and bigotry; not sure based on all texts, that all the Jews will ever see the Goyim as equals.

This line of discussion may be off-topic in this thread.

 

[Jedster]

You are a very generous person.

 

[wizanda]

This line of discussion may be off-topic in this thread.

Yeah not wanting to go off on another pointless exercise in explaining what information should be known...

It is more within your question, when all of this evidence is taken into account, it obviously changes the perspective of your question.

As when some of the Jews see the Goyim as less than human, with Paul possibly being a Pharisee infiltrator; the Christian Gentiles are just being blatantly manipulated.

 

[wizanda]

On the opposite side tho, whereas John, and Paul establish this idea that jesus is a Jewish thing; Yeshua states that the Gentiles are being invited to the Messianic age instead, with the Jews already having denied their invite to the wedding supper.

Matthew 8:8-12 The centurion answered, “Lord, I’m not worthy for you to come under my roof. Just say the word, and my servant will be healed. (9) For I am also a man under authority, having under myself soldiers. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and tell another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and tell my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” (10) When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to those who followed, “Most certainly I tell you, I haven’t found so great a faith, not even in Israel. (11) I tell you that many will come from the east and the west, and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven, (12) but the children of the Kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

So here we have Yeshua saying a Roman Centurion (Gentile) will be in the Messianic age, and not the Jews.

Matthew 22:1-14 Jesus answered and spoke to them again in parables, saying, (2) “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son, (3) and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast, but they would not come. (4) Again he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner. My cattle and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the marriage feast!”’ (5) But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise, (6) and the rest grabbed his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them. (7) When the king heard that, he was angry, and sent his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. (8) “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. (9) Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the marriage feast.’ (10) Those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. The wedding was filled with guests. (11) But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who didn’t have on wedding clothing, (12) and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here not wearing wedding clothing?’ He was speechless. (13) Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness. That is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be.’ (14) For many are called, but few chosen.”

Thus because the Jews have denied the Messiah, they're no longer automatically on the guest list; only those that are faithful have already been chosen out of the tribes of the world (Revelation 7:3-8).

Most of the statements 'weeping and gnashing of teeth', are references to many who've perceived themselves chosen, when they're not.

 

[WINDINWATERS]

Hello

When Gentiles read the New Testament, what do you think of parts such as Jesus and the Gentile Woman (where Jesus was not inclined to help the woman because she was not Jewish) and Paul's letter to the Romans where he reminds Gentiles that they are a branch of a wild olive tree, and the Jews are a branch of God's holy olive tree, but because the Jew's weren't getting it, God cut off the Jewish branch and grafted the Gentile branch in place, until all the Gentiles accept God, wherein the Jews will b saved. Paul reminds the Gentiles not to get haughty before the Jews, because if God can cut off he Jewish branch which actually belongs on the holy olive tree, he'll be even quicker to cut off the foreign branch from the wild olive tree.

Do you get the feeling that you're not really welcome, or at the very least, you're pawns to get the Jews back and will thereafter be discarded?

Thanks

So is it talking about Jews who are people of a religious cult worshiping Saturn calling him Shamash the sun god nicknaming him Shem or is it talking about a family bloodline not a race of people who have intermingled around the world and actually do not know that they have a bloodline from the man called Judah ?

 

[Grandliseur]

. . .where Jesus was not inclined to help the woman because she was not Jewish. ..

Perhaps you should read the passage one more time.

"25 When the woman came she began doing obeisance to him, saying: “Lord, help me!” 26 In answer he said: “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to little dogs.” 27 She said: “Yes, Lord; but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters.” 28 Then Jesus said in reply to her: “O woman, great is your faith; let it happen to you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour on."​

What we have to realize was that Jesus was sent to save whom he could of the Israelites:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.​

Did he turn her away as his disciples were trying to do? No! Instead, he engaged the woman in a conversation to gauge her faith, to assess the depth of her faith. If she had become proud and had taken offense, he would have turned her away, or rather, she would have gone away on her own. Her reaction was, however, proper and humble, and she was richly rewarded. Clearly, she became one of his disciples then.

This account reminds me of the time one of the prophets demanded that a general demean himself by coming to Israel and dipping himself in a river 3 times while the prophet didn't even deign to let the general have an audience with the prophet. He got very angry and nearly didn't do as told, nearly didn't get cured. Thus, God and his son, Christ Jesus, demand that we demonstrate practical and true humility to be given help.

This was a lesson in humility. Gentiles also must not be too proud to clothe themselves in Christ's frock of humility.