Genocide

[Jayhawker Soule]

We should all agree to use the term 'Casus Belli'.

I'm not at all sure. I was uncer the impression that Casus Belli typically refers to a time-specific provocation, but, having bever used the term in conversation, I could well be wrong.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Condescending as usual, ...

(Touchy.)

... never mind, ...

Good advice, albeit, apparently. an afterthought.

... i knew exactly what was writing

No doubt.

You want a list of known religious wars throughout history, this i have.

Excellent! How does it compare with, for example, the Britannica: List of Wars?

 

[ChristineM]

Touchy

But honest

Good advice, albeit, apparently. an afterthought.

Explain how considering the it was written inline.

No doubt.

You got it

Excellent! How does it compare with, for example, the Britannica: List of Wars?

Well it does have a few that Britannia seems to have missed

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Were there more people killed for non-religious than religious reasons in atrocities in history?

Are we or are we not counting all of the supposed killings done by God Himself throughout The Bible as "religious reasons?" I mean, to be sure, I would count the flood as an atrocity against human beings committed by God, then there is all the first born males killed during the pass-over, more Egyptians killed as the parted seas collapsed back into position, all the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah plus Lot's wife, and then other times in The Bible itself where God incited or at least strongly suggested that people go kill other towns, cities and lands full of people.

So, if you accept the stories in The Bible as actually being true, you have to accept that there were already plenty of killings either carried out or motivated by God Himself before we even start counting people who killed under religious pretense. It's sort of... oh, I don't know... really, really dumb to even bring this up if you are a believer looking to absolve religion of the lion's share of related/motivated killings. Unless, of course, The Bible is all just a work of fiction anyway.

 

[ChristineM]

Are we or are we not counting all of the supposed killings done by God Himself throughout The Bible as "religious reasons?" I mean, to be sure, I would count the flood as an atrocity against human beings committed by God, then there is all the first born males killed during the pass-over, more Egyptians killed as the parted seas collapsed back into position, all the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah plus Lot's wife, and then other times in The Bible itself where God incited or at least strongly suggested that people go kill other towns, cities and lands full of people.

So, if you accept the stories in The Bible as actually being true, you have to accept that there were already plenty of killings either carried out or motivated by God Himself before we even start counting people who killed under religious pretense. It's sort of... oh, I don't know... really, really dumb to even bring this up if you are a believer looking to absolve religion of the lion's share of related/motivated killings. Unless, of course, The Bible is all just a work of fiction anyway.

The bible counts gods score at around two and a quarter million deaths excluding the flood.

 

[Brian2]

Justice to those who don't believe n a bronze age myth is not justice

No, justice on those who do believe and justice on those who step way outside the bounds of decency that all of us should have.

Who's law, gods law which only applied to believers. So actually murder and genocide, not justice

I was talking about those under the covenant and law and who did not obey the law.
But God can judge people who are not under the Law. As our maker He has the authority and knowledge to do that.

??? So a group of desert nomads claim someones land own because their god (no anyone elses god) said do it???

In that case the thing is that they had to go somewhere when they escaped Egypt and conflict was going to happen no matter where they went. The good thing is that God could kill 2 birds with the one stone, judge the Canaanites and settle His people in their land.
Getting back to the OP, none of this is religious war or war caused by religion.

 

[ChristineM]

I was talking about those under the covenant and law and who did not obey the law.

Were you? The bible thinks otherwise

As our maker He has the authority and knowledge to do that.

In your opinion, than goodness i am not to taken with a genocidist

In that case the thing is that they had to go somewhere when they escaped Egypt and conflict was going to happen no matter where they went. The good thing is that God could kill 2 birds with the one stone, judge the Canaanites and settle His people in their land.

So the canaanites did not worship the abrahamic god so this contradicts your first sentence. And land theft is still land theft whether a voice in your head or simple greed tells you to steal it.

Getting back to the OP, none of this is religious war or war caused by religion.

Actually killing and stealing land and property because god told you too is pertty much the ultimate religious war

 

[Brian2]

So the canaanites did not worship the abrahamic god so this contradicts your first sentence. And land theft is still land theft whether a voice in your head or simple greed tells you to steal it.

If God has shown you massive miracles over a 40 year period then He is the living God to you, or should be, and has shown His superiority to other so called Gods. If that God tells you to go and fight to gain control of the land He is giving them and that He is judging those nations because of the evils they have done. Not worshipping other gods, why would that be a problem if the true God had not revealed Himself to them.

Actually killing and stealing land and property because god told you too is pertty much the ultimate religious war

It was not a war of one religion against the others, it was God giving His people a place to live.

 

[ChristineM]

If God has shown you massive miracles over a 40 year period then He is the living God to you, or should be, and has shown His superiority to other so called Gods. If that God tells you to go and fight to gain control of the land He is giving them and that He is judging those nations because of the evils they have done. Not worshipping other gods, why would that be a problem if the true God had not revealed Himself to them.



It was not a war of one religion against the others, it was God giving
His people a place to live.

which god, what miracles, what superiority, what evils

If some schizophrenic decides to eject you from your home, possibly kill you, rape your daughters you would have something to say about it (not if they killed you of course).

It was claimed to be god sanctioning theft.

You excuse it anyway you want

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

If God has shown you massive miracles over a 40 year period then He is the living God to you, or should be, and has shown His superiority to other so called Gods. If that God tells you to go and fight to gain control of the land He is giving them and that He is judging those nations because of the evils they have done. Not worshipping other gods, why would that be a problem if the true God had not revealed Himself to them.

You mean you wouldn't question the motivations of some other-worldly entity that was instructing you to go kill (and, in many cases, be killed, let's be honest about how war goes here) other human beings? When I put the question that way, doesn't it sound nuts to say that you would follow the instructions or bend to the desires of some other-worldly being who seemed intent on killing a group of your fellow humans?

If an alien who could perform crazy feats of healing or things akin to "miracles" appeared to you, and told you to go kill your neighbor, would you do it? What if that alien had been appearing to you for 40 years, and had helped you out countless times during that 40 years? Would you then be more amenable to the idea of killing your neighbor on this alien's instructions?

There now - doesn't that all sound completely insane? Just because we substitute "God" instead of "alien," does it truly make the proposition any better?

 

[pearl]

"Each year on this day, we remember the lives of all those who died in the Ottoman-era Armenian genocide and recommit ourselves to preventing such an atrocity from ever again occurring."

The first US president to call it a genocide

Biden officially recognizes the massacre of Armenians in World War I as a genocide - CNNPolitics

 

[Brian2]

which god, what miracles, what superiority, what evils

If some schizophrenic decides to eject you from your home, possibly kill you, rape your daughters you would have something to say about it (not if they killed you of course).

It was claimed to be god sanctioning theft.

You excuse it anyway you want

If you reject the idea that God is whom the Bible says and reject the miracles God did for Israel and reject the notion that this God is the creator of all things and judge of all of us it means that you are not reading the Bible in context. As a work of fiction and in context the God of the Bible has every right to do what He did,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and if the work of fiction happens to turn out to be true, He also has every right to judge all of us as He sees fit.

 

[ChristineM]

If you reject the idea that God is whom the Bible says and reject the miracles God did for Israel and reject the notion that this God is the creator of all things and judge of all of us it means that you are not reading the Bible in context. As a work of fiction and in context the God of the Bible has every right to do what He did,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and if the work of fiction happens to turn out to be true, He also has every right to judge all of us as He sees fit.

I read the bibles (3 different ones) as books. I needed no time machines to put them in whatever context suited me but precisely as written. As written the god described is a failure. He is supposed to have created mankind then punished mankind because the creator got it wrong. Not once, not twice but several times. I reject god precisely for what the bible says and thinking critically and logically without blinkers

No one has such a right to commit genocide because they failed. No one. Rather a good engineer would look for where they made the mistake and rectify it.

One judges according to the law, not some arbitrary peevishness.

 

[King Phenomenon]

I read the bibles (3 different ones) as books. I needed no time machines to put them in whatever context suited me but precisely as written. As written the god described is a failure. He is supposed to have created mankind then punished mankind because the creator got it wrong. Not once, not twice but several times. I reject god precisely for what the bible says and thinking critically and logically without blinkers

No one has such a right to commit genocide because they failed. No one. Rather a good engineer would look for where they made the mistake and rectify it.

One judges according to the law, not some arbitrary peevishness.

I Think he does it more than several times he does it over and over and over again infinitely. But everyone knows that’s metaphorical. It’s just life and it’s cycles

 

[Brian2]

You mean you wouldn't question the motivations of some other-worldly entity that was instructing you to go kill (and, in many cases, be killed, let's be honest about how war goes here) other human beings? When I put the question that way, doesn't it sound nuts to say that you would follow the instructions or bend to the desires of some other-worldly being who seemed intent on killing a group of your fellow humans?

If an alien who could perform crazy feats of healing or things akin to "miracles" appeared to you, and told you to go kill your neighbor, would you do it? What if that alien had been appearing to you for 40 years, and had helped you out countless times during that 40 years? Would you then be more amenable to the idea of killing your neighbor on this alien's instructions?

There now - doesn't that all sound completely insane? Just because we substitute "God" instead of "alien," does it truly make the proposition any better?

I guess if you thought it was an alien and not God that would make it a different proposition. We are talking about an uneducated or unsophisticated lot of superstitious people who believed in such things as Gods however and we are talking about a situation in which they were going to have to fight and kill or be killed anyway or go back to the wilderness and hope his being continued to help you to survive again even though you disobeyed it, or go to Egypt and offer themselves to them as slaves again,,,,,,,,,or fight them.
So they did as this being told them and it helped them to overcome the Canaanites and the rest is also history,,,,,,,,,,,if you want to see it as such.

 

[ChristineM]

I Think he does it more than several times he does it over and over and over again infinitely. But everyone knows that’s metaphorical. It’s just life and it’s cycles

So some would say if they believe in the abrahamic god ( or other omni everything goes)

However I am working within the limits of the bible, not every plague and famine, every innocent child that suffers and dies of leukemia, every "act of god"...

 

[King Phenomenon]

So some would say if they believe in the abrahamic god ( or other omni everything goes)

However I am working within the limits of the bible, not every plague and famine, every innocent child that suffers and dies of leukemia, every "act of god"...

People don’t think that way

 

[ChristineM]

People don’t think that way

Correct, they think exactly the opposite. God done it all cos god is great... Except the bad stuff, he never dun the bad stuff, it was people what dun the bad stuff...

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I guess if you thought it was an alien and not God that would make it a different proposition. We are talking about an uneducated or unsophisticated lot of superstitious people who believed in such things as Gods however and we are talking about a situation in which they were going to have to fight and kill or be killed anyway or go back to the wilderness and hope his being continued to help you to survive again even though you disobeyed it, or go to Egypt and offer themselves to them as slaves again,,,,,,,,,or fight them.
So they did as this being told them and it helped them to overcome the Canaanites and the rest is also history,,,,,,,,,,,if you want to see it as such.

So, in other words, it was fine for those people back then because they didn't know any better. I see.

Well, hopefully we're past that stage of development and will never again listen to voices in our heads that instruct us to kill other people, and then have all the resulting insanity written down in a book where we are praised for our slaughtering our fellow man. I mean... who wouldn't hope we are past that stage? Hmmm... now that I am thinking about it... maybe God? Maybe God wishes we were still in that stage? Might make any desires He has nowadays of having people's wiped out wholesale a lot easier to make reality if we were all still his "good little sheep" in this way.

Isn't it just strange how easy it is to make God sound like an absolute monster? So interesting. I have to say... it makes one wonder...

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Often the fight to impose a version of god on some other group is the reason for war. And hundreds of millions of people have been killed under that pretext. However i am not sure how many have been killed for non religious reasons.

According to the Encyclopedia of Wars, out of all 1,763 known/recorded historical conflicts, 123, or 6.98%, had religion as their primary cause.