Genesis & Science - Friend or Foe?

[Dan From Smithville]

Though I do believe that an engineering degree may be one that is deemed "education" by the JW's. As long as one does not learn too much of the dreaded sciences. That an art, history, ethics. I suppose that one could learn some of the more mundane application only fields, such as business school classes. But anything that encourages one to think appears to be off limits.

Nothing that would lead one to wonder about the teachings of the church then. That would be unwholesome. So it is like his definition for good and bad science.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The term "green ink" arose in England where loonies (I do believe that is the proper British terms) would frequently write letters to the editor in Green Ink:

Green ink - RationalWiki

"Green ink is a British journalistic term for the frothing of lunatics.[1][2][3] Back when letters to news outlets were produced in an archaic medium based on materials known as "paper" and "ink", the nutters would supposedly always write their IMPORTANT INFORMATION in green. It is not known just how many such letters actually existed, or if this is just urban legend, though there are occasional reports of physical manifestations.[4] Common comorbid characteristics include irrelevant capitalisation, religious mania, overuse of exclamation marks and veiled threats or warnings directed at the recipient. An article in The Observer about letters to the editor suggests avoidance of green ink.[5]

The term remains a useful metaphor for similar frothing in the electronic age, even though the pages are likely to include every colour rejected from the rainbow,[6] in a tasteful variety of fonts. Though the truly exquisite green ink often appears in carefully-formatted black and white PDFs."

Best read on the site where one can see all of the "green ink" used.

Once you mentioned that, I started noticing the large number of examples that come from certain posters. There is also a proliferation of the use of emojis among people that would fall under the "green ink" paradigm.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Like I said, it's easy to rattle off words. That's the best you can do.
@Subduction Zone also, you don't read properly. that's unwholesome entertainment.

Yep. Not even a pretense of civil discourse anymore.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Speaking of nonsense SZ...
I hope you did not get a higher education, because I would be embarrassed to know that I got a higher education, and "reason" the way you do.
To state that to discourage higher education, is to be against education, is a highly illogical statement.
It demonstrates that knowledge is not common sense, nor wisdom.
Wisdom is prime. It is the ability to use knowledge, in the proper or right way. So academics, or having degrees, does not put one above a person who has a basic education.

Based on both internal church documentation and external documentation from former members, the Jehovah's Witness church discourages education and appears to view education as a threat.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I was not talking about the nonsense that you posted. I was talking about the attitude of the leaders of your cult towards education.

I think that sums up most of what I have read from him. What can be comprehended, makes no more sense than what cannot.

All I get is that he has a belief and he feels that he can establish his belief as fact by constantly repeating it and ridiculing everyone that disagrees.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Nah.. those are just competing religious beliefs. 'Science!' says no such thing. It can only assemble the facts and evidence, it cannot concoct plausible explanations for the data.

That's for the religious side of the brain..

..science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. ~Albert Einstein

Science is not a religious belief. Where did you get these ridiculous ideas about science?

A theory is an explanation of the evidence. What do you think it is?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Thanks for the... education.



What was the compelling argument?
I understand the difference quite well. You are the one that does not understand how your cult opposes education.

You made it even worst, by adding this:
The claim is that they are opposed to their members getting an advanced formal education for fear that it will contradicts their teachings and lead to apostasy.

It's a claim. So what?
I f these words were published, as a fact though, you would really experience the results of higher education , when they sue the pants off you, for malicious slander.


So? The study of natural processes has everything to do with the advancement of all sciences
The study of natural processes is not ToE.


I did not call biological evolution adaptation. Please read carefully... and try to understand.

An organism cannot pass on something, unless it multiples. In order to pass on anything, the organism must first have it. In order for the organism to be immune to something, it must adapt a resistance.
So, it's adaptation.
The organism adapted, and then passed on it genes.
So what do you call the evolution, the adaptation of the organism, or the reproduction resulting in resistant offspring?


That's your opinion.

Your argument also presents illusions. You accept those. Fine.



We have been here before, many times apparently. No repeats on this. It's a useless cycle.

You seem to like useless cycles. Break the mold and provide an argument with evidence and leave all the insults, logical fallacies and other poor behaviors behind.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

LOL. Okay, let me make it easier for you.
Just give me two things we know about the evolution of our universe, which conflicts with the Genesis account.
That's the purpose of the thread.
Surely, you are not going to deny me that, are you?

Numerous examples have been provided. How many more are required?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Of course reproduction has been occurring for billions of years. Your question only showed that you have no understanding of evolution at all. I tried to politely explain your errors to you. That you do not understand how evolution is applied does not mean that it is not done.

It is rather nice that he has put me on ignore. I do not have to answer silly posts in response to mine. That and it does him no service to appear to be unable to respond to my posts.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is rather nice that he has put me on ignore. I do not have to answer silly posts in response to mine. That and it does him no service to appear to be unable to respond to my posts.

I did not realize that he had done so. I do believe he had me on ignore for a while too.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I did not realize that he had done so. I do believe he had me on ignore for a while too.

He made a big show of it. I do not know if he really did or not, but he has not responded to me since. It was all over the fact that I found sources from his own church that show that they discourage education and how I should apologize for lying about the existence of those sources. Since they actually exist, it would hardly be lies and there is nothing to apologize for, but it clearly hurt his feelings to have to deal with the reality of it. It was easier to make a scapegoat than to admit that he was wrong or apologize to me for his accusations.

 

[sooda]

He made a big show of it. I do not know if he really did or not, but he has not responded to me since. It was all over the fact that I found sources from his own church that show that they discourage education and how I should apologize for lying about the existence of those sources. Since they actually exist, it would hardly be lies and there is nothing to apologize for, but it clearly hurt his feelings to have to deal with the reality of it. It was easier to make a scapegoat than to admit that he was wrong or apologize to me for his accusations.

I had several run ins with JW 20 years ago. They can be very aggressive and cult like. Shame really to discourage education, but its obvious why they do that.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I had several run ins with JW 20 years ago. They can be very aggressive and cult like. Shame really to discourage education, but its obvious why they do that.

I do not run into them frequently, but I usually steer the conversation to science and they wonder off. Yeah. Some of them can be very aggressive considering they usually wonder into ones life uninvited.

A pesky education can lead to pesky questions and doubts about the party line.

 

[sooda]

I do not run into them frequently, but I usually steer the conversation to science and they wonder off. Yeah. Some of them can be very aggressive considering they usually wonder into ones life uninvited.

A pesky education can lead to pesky questions and doubts about the party line.

Do people join JW or are most of them born into it?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Do people join JW or are most of them born into it?

I suppose they must have some success with their door to door canvasing, but I do not know. They have built a number of churches over the past 30 years in the part of Missouri that I come from, so I am assuming they are absorbing new converts in those areas. Outside of agriculture and forestry, that part of Missouri had some minor manufacturing that has been lost over time due to outsourcing, so unemployment and poverty were always higher with generally lower levels of education. It would be a good place for a cult-like group to set up shop.

 

[sooda]

I suppose they must have some success with their door to door canvasing, but I do not know. They have built a number of churches over the past 30 years in the part of Missouri that I come from, so I am assuming they are absorbing new converts in those areas. Outside of agriculture and forestry, that part of Missouri had some minor manufacturing that has been lost over time due to outsourcing, so unemployment and poverty were always higher with generally lower levels of education. It would be a good place for a cult-like group to set up shop.

Thank you.. That all makes sense.

 

[nPeace]

Thanks metis. That was easy, wasn't it?

Is sarcasm your m.o.?

Sarcasm? What... Where? <scratching my head>

Genesis 1[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

There's roughly 9 billion years separating the two, plus there's no objective evidence to know exactly what caused our universe to expand.

Genesis 1[2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

Earth was a molten mass at first, whereas water only came about after Earth cooled.

Genesis 1[3] And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

Light existed before Earth came into being.

Genesis 1[5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

The word for "day" is "yom", and "yom" always means day-- not era, nor epoch, unless it's used symbolically such as "A thousand years is but a day in the eyes of God".

The understanding that "yom" only means "day" becomes evidenced at the end of Creation whereas it says in Genesis 2[2] And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done.
[3] So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.

The day of rest, "Shabbat" in Hebrew, is a day of the week-- not an epoch nor an era, unless specified otherwise.

Genesis 1[6]And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."

The word "firmament" in Hebrew indicates solidness, and the ancient belief was that a firm dome was above the Earth with the Moon and the stars on the inside. Obviously, there is no such "firmament".

I'll stop at this point, but if all you're going to do is to be sarcastic, then this may be my last response back in return. IMO, it is unethical under Jesus' teachings based on the "law of love" to try and demean another. If you don't agree, then I'm done.

Before I begin, let me remind you of the request I made.
Just give me two things we know about the evolution of our universe, which conflicts with the Genesis account.

So your answers reflect your view that these verses you presented, are in conflict with what you as a scientist consider to be known - by known, I am assuming you mean tested and verified.

Therefore , at the end of this, you should really do this... Ready?
Throw your Bible in the garbage, and tell your wife you are no longer a Christian because you don't know which parts of the Bible are true, or which are plain fiction.
...and be ready to spend a night... or more, in the dog house.

Don't worry. Your loving wife will take you back. Till death do us part.

Here goes.
1. Genesis 1[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

In my factory, I made milk and cheese. @metis that should be butter, and cheese.
How much time passed between the time I made the butter and the cheese.
You earn a medal, if you get the correct time.

2. Genesis 1[2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

In my factory, the butter and cheese was firm.
A medal, ir you can tell me what time I am talking about.
This one is much easier. Like cake actually.

3. Genesis 1[3] And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

A medal if you can tell me where it says in the Bible, where the light came from, or how it came to be.

4. Genesis 1[5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Hmmm. No more medal offers. You're playing hardball now.

Who called the light day, and the darkness night? God did.
Is God limited by anything? Not according to how he is described in the Bible. So time matters not, to God, who is infinite.
As the greatest mathematician, numbers are a snap. As for his power - ultimate. Hence the Bible says this... (just read the red)
1.
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past, Just as a watch during the night. . .
2 Peter 3:8.
However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

2. Joshua 10:12, 13
12 It was then, on the day that Jehovah routed the Amʹor·ites before the eyes of the Israelites, that Joshua said to Jehovah before Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibʹe·on, And moon, over the Valley of Aiʹja·lon!” 13 So the sun stood still and the moon did not move until the nation could take vengeance on its enemies. . . .

Hmmm. I wonder how long the day was, before the sun set.
Some things are worthy of noting, from the Bible. Jehovah prevented nightfall for more than 24 hours. He has the ability to do so for any period of time he wishes.
A day from his point of view could be eons, as time does not matter to him.

Let's apply that knowledge to Genesis 1:5

If according to you, "yom" only means "day", a day is still a day from God's point of view - a day as mentioned above. In other words, a period of time - which could be eons.
To cement this...
Genesis 2:4 Interlinear: These are births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens;
Genesis 2:4 Hebrew Text Analysis
Genesis 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them.

So according to Genesis 2:4, God did everything in one day. BRAM!
If we look at that day from God's point of view, it has no fixed period of time.
It could be eons of time. God knows how long it took. I don't.

5. it says in Genesis 2[2] And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done.
[3] So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.

God rested from all his creative works - that is, all the works done from the beginning of his works on the earth, specificall.
Please note, it does not include his creating angels or anything else. So everything outside earth is excluded. More on this later.

So how long is God's rest day? Indefinite.
How do we know?
1.He has not been creating anything new.
2. See Hebrews 3:10, 11 and Hebrews 4
God's rest continues even during Christ's millennial reign.

When everything is finished - that is, when God's sovereignty has been established to all, then perhaps he will do more creative works.
We'll see.

6. Genesis 1[6]And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."

And what does the word expanse suggest?
Strong's Hebrew: 7549. רָקִ֫יעַ (raqia) -- an extended surface, expanse
I think when we get the proper expression, we can get the proper understanding.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
firmament
From raqa'; properly, an expanse, i.e. The firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky -- firmament.
see HEBREW raqa'

Right now, it's a case of English people trying to understand ancient Hebrews. I'm going to go with the reasonable English guys.
You can choose your side.

It's expanse - stretched out sky, visible from earth.

Feel free to "beat it out" though. I don't mind considering it with you, but later. Right now I am starved.
I didn't want to stop because you are on my favorite topic - Genesis.

Hope I didn't miss any.
Time to eat.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Thanks metis. That was easy, wasn't it?


Sarcasm? What... Where? <scratching my head>


Before I begin, let me remind you of the request I made.
Just give me two things we know about the evolution of our universe, which conflicts with the Genesis account.

So your answers reflect your view that these verses you presented, are in conflict with what you as a scientist consider to be known - by known, I am assuming you mean tested and verified.

Therefore , at the end of this, you should really do this... Ready?
Throw your Bible in the garbage, and tell your wife you are no longer a Christian because you don't know which parts of the Bible are true, or which are plain fiction.
...and be ready to spend a night... or more, in the dog house.

Don't worry. Your loving wife will take you back. Till death do us part.

Here goes.
1. Genesis 1[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

In my factory, I made milk and cheese.
How much time passed between the time I made the butter and the cheese.
You earn a medal, if you get the correct time.

2. Genesis 1[2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

In my factory, the butter and cheese was firm.
A medal, ir you can tell me what time I am talking about.
This one is much easier. Like cake actually.

3. Genesis 1[3] And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

A medal if you can tell me where it says in the Bible, where the light came from, or how it came to be.

4. Genesis 1[5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Hmmm. No more medal offers. You're playing hardball now.

Who called the light day, and the darkness night? God did.
Is God limited by anything? Not according to how he is described in the Bible. So time matters not, to God, who is infinite.
As the greatest mathematician, numbers are a snap. As for his power - ultimate. Hence the Bible says this... (just read the red)
1.
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past, Just as a watch during the night. . .
2 Peter 3:8.
However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

2. Joshua 10:12, 13
12 It was then, on the day that Jehovah routed the Amʹor·ites before the eyes of the Israelites, that Joshua said to Jehovah before Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibʹe·on, And moon, over the Valley of Aiʹja·lon!” 13 So the sun stood still and the moon did not move until the nation could take vengeance on its enemies. . . .

Hmmm. I wonder how long the day was, before the sun set.
Some things are worthy of noting, from the Bible. Jehovah prevented nightfall for more than 24 hours. He has the ability to do so for any period of time he wishes.
A day from his point of view could be eons, as time does not matter to him.

Let's apply that knowledge to Genesis 1:5

If according to you, "yom" only means "day", a day is still a day from God's point of view - a day as mentioned above. In other words, a period of time - which could be eons.
To cement this...
Genesis 2:4 Interlinear: These are births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens;
Genesis 2:4 Hebrew Text Analysis
Genesis 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them.

So according to Genesis 2:4, God did everything in one day. BRAM!
If we look at that day from God's point of view, it has no fixed period of time.
It could be eons of time. God knows how long it took. I don't.

5. it says in Genesis 2[2] And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done.
[3] So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.

God rested from all his creative works - that is, all the works done from the beginning of his works on the earth, specificall.
Please note, it does not include his creating angels or anything else. So everything outside earth is excluded. More on this later.

So how long is God's rest day? Indefinite.
How do we know?
1.He has not been creating anything new.
2. See Hebrews 3:10, 11 and Hebrews 4
God's rest continues even during Christ's millennial reign.

When everything is finished - that is, when God's sovereignty has been established to all, then perhaps he will do more creative works.
We'll see.

6. Genesis 1[6]And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."

And what does the word expanse suggest?
Strong's Hebrew: 7549. רָקִ֫יעַ (raqia) -- an extended surface, expanse
I think when we get the proper expression, we can get the proper understanding.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
firmament
From raqa'; properly, an expanse, i.e. The firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky -- firmament.
see HEBREW raqa'

Right now, it's a case of English people trying to understand ancient Hebrews. I'm going to go with the reasonable English guys.
You can choose your side.

It's expanse - stretched out sky, visible from earth.

Feel free to "beat it out" though. I don't mind considering it with you, but later. Right now I am starved.
I didn't want to stop because you are on my favorite topic - Genesis.

Hope I didn't miss any.
Time to eat.

So no harmony between Genesis and science. You could have just said so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So no harmony between Genesis and science. You could have just said so.

Oddly he appears to want it both ways. The parts that even he knows to be wrong are allegorical, where the parts that are equally wrong that are too much for him are literal.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Oddly he appears to want it both ways. The parts that even he knows to be wrong are allegorical, where the parts that are equally wrong that are too much for him are literal.

He is all over the place. Just making up ridiculous silliness that means nothing.