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Genesis geography

gnostic

The Lost One
The Genesis (2:10-15. say that there is a stream that flow through Garden of Eden, but beyond the Garden the stream is divided into 4 rivers.

I recognise only 2 of the rivers - Tigris and Euphrates - otherwise this region is known as Mesopotamia, which comprised of the region of Assyria in the north and Babylonia in the south.

I also recongised the land of Cush, which is modern Ethiopia and Sudan, but not the river Gihon. Unless Cush is also in some place of the region of Mesopotamia.

More interesting, is the land where pure gold and rare gems can be found. (No, I'm not looking for treasure, so I am not in the hunt for these gold and gems.) This river is Pishon and it runs through the land of Havilah. Has anyone worked out where this Havilah is?

I am not looking for Eden, but Havilah.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Also, Cain left his family to live in the Land of the Nod, which possibly mean the land of "wandering". Has anyone figure out this location too?

It seemed that Cain was the first to build a city, which he named after his son, Enoch.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
Most research I've seen suggests Pison was a tributary of the Euphrates. Who knows! Why are ya looking?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I am simply curious.

Other than mythology, I also have interests in history, genealogy and geography. Mysterious places fascinate me, as well as mythical people. For me, biblical name-places are puzzles to piece together.

Although, I don't believe in what is written in the Genesis in regarding to the Creation and the Flood, they can still astound me with their mysteries.

I never knew that nutrition of pork or bacon was a religious or philosophical group. I'd guess that I learn something new everyday. :D

Just kidding. ;)
 

Steve

Active Member
Genesis Geography includes a global flood, you simply wont find a geography described befor the flood the same as what we have today.

2 Peter 3:6 - By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
lol Sir Francis Bacon. Read up on him. One very interesting Englishman, and there's not to many of those.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
gnostic said:
I know who Mr Bacon is. A 17th century philosopher/author in science and politics.
A man possessed with deliciously dark sense of humour, and an intuitive understanding of the irony of human existence :) Would be how I'd describe him. He also served as an advisor to Queen Elizabeth the First until he fell out of favour with the... conservatives. Anyone who peeves conservatives is fine by me.

Oh, did I also mention he was famed throughout Europe as an occultist, and is now widely thought to be have been a writer using the pseudonym William Shakespeare.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Yes, I heard about both occultism and Shakespeare too.

I have not read any of Bacon's works though....well unless, he is also Bill Shakespeare.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
gnostic said:
Yes, I heard about both occultism and Shakespeare too.

I have not read any of Bacon's works though....well unless, he is also Bill Shakespeare.
follow the yellow brick link :) A collection of Essays he sent to the Duke of Buckingham who he also advised and was a life friend of.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
the Geography before the flood is difficult because geography could be significantly altered by the flood of Noah

Some actually put the garden of Eden at Mount Zion

Even geography after the flood is tricky sometimes... 'the city of David' in the OT is refering ro Jerusalem but 'the city of David' in the NT is referign to Bethlehem
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
the Geography before the flood is difficult because geography could be significantly altered by the flood of Noah

Some actually put the garden of Eden at Mount Zion

Even geography after the flood is tricky sometimes... 'the city of David' in the OT is refering ro Jerusalem but 'the city of David' in the NT is referign to Bethlehem
^ silly
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
the Geography before the flood is difficult because geography could be significantly altered by the flood of Noah

Some actually put the garden of Eden at Mount Zion

Even geography after the flood is tricky sometimes... 'the city of David' in the OT is refering ro Jerusalem but 'the city of David' in the NT is referign to Bethlehem
You posted in a thread that hasn't had activity in a decade and...this is what you've got to say?
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
The Genesis (2:10-15. say that there is a stream that flow through Garden of Eden, but beyond the Garden the stream is divided into 4 rivers.

I recognise only 2 of the rivers - Tigris and Euphrates - otherwise this region is known as Mesopotamia, which comprised of the region of Assyria in the north and Babylonia in the south.

I also recongised the land of Cush, which is modern Ethiopia and Sudan, but not the river Gihon. Unless Cush is also in some place of the region of Mesopotamia.

More interesting, is the land where pure gold and rare gems can be found. (No, I'm not looking for treasure, so I am not in the hunt for these gold and gems.) This river is Pishon and it runs through the land of Havilah. Has anyone worked out where this Havilah is?

I am not looking for Eden, but Havilah.

This probably wont help, but it might be food for thought. many times in the Bible the meaning of the word used is a metaphor that points to a spiritual truth.

Three nations are mentioned--Havilah, Cush and Assyria. IMO these are metaphors for all the things we will experience since the Garden of Eden is no longer available.

--Havilah means pain and sorrow.

--Cush means "black and or terror. It is usually associated with Egypt, which symbolizes false religions and slavery. It is believed he is the father of the black races. His son was Nimrod, whose name means "we will rebel" and he founded the kingdom of Babylon, which also symbolizes false religions, and his people started building he Tower of Babel.

Assyria comes from a root that means to fortunate or lifted up.

In this life we will experience pain and sorrow; false religions that will enslave us, and dome that are fortunate and can lift us up spiritually, all the way to heaven.

It does not mention land into which the Euphrates flows. Euphrates comes from a root that means "to bear fruit." This reminds me of the "fruit of the Spirit, which there is no law against(Gal 5:22-23). There is also the fruit of the light---all goodness and righteousness and truth(Eph 5:9). These are all things available to us while were are out of the Garden.

Like i said, only food for thought.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
It does not mention land into which the Euphrates flows. Euphrates comes from a root that means "to bear fruit." This reminds me of the "fruit of the Spirit, which there is no law against(Gal 5:22-23).
You do realise that Euphrates and Tigris are not Hebrew names for these rivers, don't you?

They are not even Sumerian or Akkadian or Assyrian or Babylonian names.

That's one of the reasons I don't think the Genesis was written by Moses in the late Bronze Age, and the reasons why I don't think Moses exist, or that the Exodus and invasion of Canaan ever happened.

They are ancient Greek names from the 1st millennium BCE.

Euphrates and Tigris may derived from Old Persian Ufrātu and Tigrā, but Old Persian was spoken and written at the time of Cyrus, 6th century BCE, to the time of Alexander the Great (late 3rd century BCE).

This is the reason why I believed that Genesis was largely written in the 6th century BCE.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
the Geography before the flood is difficult because geography could be significantly altered by the flood of Noah

Some actually put the garden of Eden at Mount Zion

Even geography after the flood is tricky sometimes... 'the city of David' in the OT is refering ro Jerusalem but 'the city of David' in the NT is referign to Bethlehem
Geography could have changed significantly due to the flood
Obviously it was.

Judging by calculating the timeline backwards from the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BCE, to the times of Genesis, the Flood has been calculated to be 2430 to 2104 BCE, or worse, even earlier than that, depending on how people interpret Exodus 12:40-41:

Exodus 12:40-41 said:
40 The time that the Israelites had lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years. 41 At the end of four hundred thirty years, on that very day, all the companies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.

Do you put the time of 430 years in scenarios:

(A) when Jacob, also name Israel, arriving and staying in Egypt till he died?​

(B) or, when Abraham received the covenant?​

The reason being, is regarding to Moses' birth, and especially Jochebed, Moses' mother.

The problem is that of line of Levi, in which Exodus 6 that listed Moses' only Levi, Kohath (6:16) and Amram (6:18, 20), and that Amram, and that Amram's wife Jochebed was also his aunt (6:20). Jochebed was the daughter of Levi (Numbers 26:59), born at some time in Egypt.
Numbers 26:59 said:
59 The name of Amram’s wife was Jochebed daughter of Levi, who was born to Levi in Egypt; and she bore to Amram: Aaron, Moses, and their sister Miriam.

If you think the 430 years referred to scenario (A) Jacob, then Jochebed would have to be at the very least - 261 years old (if not even older than that) when she gave birth to Moses.

261 years is the gap between Levi's death and Moses' birth, if we use 430 years for Jacob settling in Egypt at age 130 and Levi at age 48. Levi lived in Egypt for 89 years.

Jochebed would have to born at any time of Levi living in Egypt (hence the 89-year window).

If you used 430 years on scenario (B) instead (which is the time of Abraham's covenant), then Jochebed would have to be at least 137 years old, if not older. 137 years, again, would be the gap between Levi's death and Moses' birth.

Either ones of these ages, would make Jochebed very old, but scenario A is impossible.

So scenario B is more likely than scenario A, which would date the Flood anywhere between 2340 and 2104 BCE.

But the real problem is with Genesis and Exodus, and how to match the Flood with history and archaeology. And that not possible with any dates.

And according to Genesis 10, the city of Uruk (or Erech) and kingdom of Egypt didn't exist before the Flood, which clearly aren't true, historically and archaeologically.

Both Uruk and Egypt predated 2340 BCE.

2340 BCE is the early part of the 6th dynasty (2345 - 2181 BCE) of Egypt (Old Kingdom). The Great Pyramids of Giza, predated 2340 BCE, built in the 4th dynasty (c 2613 - 2494 BCE), and there are even older pyramids, in the 3rd dynasty.

For Genesis 10 to say Egypt only exist AFTER the Flood, the bible is clearly wrong.

And Uruk was a small village, on the Euphrates, at least 5000 BCE, becoming a modest size town during the 5th millennium BCE, but became the largest city in the world during the 4th millennium BCE, reach its peak between 3600 - 3200 BCE. The 4th millennium temples to An (Anu) and Inanna (Ishtar) are physical testimony of Uruk existence, predating the Flood 2340.

Uruk in 4th millennium BCE, predated the Sumerian civilisation, that started in c 3100 BCE.

Again, this shows that the bible, especially the authors to Genesis and Exodus don't know much about history in Egypt and in Mesopotamia. According to Genesis 10, Nimrod, grandson of Ham, was the founder of Uruk.

History can be a lie, often written by the victors, hence can be subjected to propaganda, but archaeology is about finding physical evidences. And Egypt's pyramids and Uruk's temples to Inanna (Ishtar) and An (Anu) clearly demonstrated Genesis 10 to be wrong.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Genesis (2:10-15. say that there is a stream that flow through Garden of Eden, but beyond the Garden the stream is divided into 4 rivers.

I recognise only 2 of the rivers - Tigris and Euphrates - otherwise this region is known as Mesopotamia, which comprised of the region of Assyria in the north and Babylonia in the south.

I also recongised the land of Cush, which is modern Ethiopia and Sudan, but not the river Gihon. Unless Cush is also in some place of the region of Mesopotamia.

More interesting, is the land where pure gold and rare gems can be found. (No, I'm not looking for treasure, so I am not in the hunt for these gold and gems.) This river is Pishon and it runs through the land of Havilah. Has anyone worked out where this Havilah is?

I am not looking for Eden, but Havilah.

Wouldn't the geology be very different before and after the flood of genesis 6?
 
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