Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[dad]

I have yet to see any Christian (or anyone for that matter) agree with you that time was different "back then".

Never said any such silly thing. Nature is not time, get a grip.
Be honest.

 

[Nimos]

(Gnostic asked for me to post this image here as he saw it in another thread, and thought it would be interesting in this one

 

[gnostic]

(Gnostic asked for me to post this image here as he saw it in another thread, and thought it would be interesting in this one

Thanks, Nimos.

To creationists:

The way Genesis describe the creation in chapter 1, looks more or less like this image above.

It is nothing like how we see the Earth and the sky, now, including our solar system, the Milky Way and the rest of the universe.

The sun, moon and stars are certainly not enclosed with the hemispherical dome (firmament), and water outside of firmament. And we certainly don’t receive rain above the sun and moon.

Rains only fall from mostly the Troposphere, which is the lowest layer of the Earth’s atmosphere, because that’s where most the water vapors are found.

I don’t see how creationists can claim that Genesis 1 fit in with today’s science accurately.

 

[dad]

(Gnostic asked for me to post this image here as he saw it in another thread, and thought it would be interesting in this one

There are no windows or doors of/to heaven. Not a one. The only time any portal opened/opens up and is called a door or window is in special cases, it is not and never was a feature of nature! Your pic is very misleading and inaccurate.
As for the 'gate' to heaven in the north, have you any support for that?

The picture seems to have earth floating on some great deep. That is not the case at all. The fountains of the deep did bring waters up that used to be somewhere in the interior of the earth, but the idea of floating is nowhere to be found.

I see you map has a place for the dead I assume, called sheol. Can you support it having existed what looks like few mountain sizes deep? Ha.

Then you have some bizarre cave icicle like looking 'foundations of heaven' on each side, seemingly also made of the dirt the land is. Hilarious fantasy.

Finally I see you have some strip over the sky you labeled as firmament. The problem is that all the stars were IN that firmament, obviously it is not up where airplanes or satellites fly! Any waters above where the stars are would look nothing whatsoever like that.

In all ways the pic is a fraud.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There are no windows or doors of/to heaven. Not a one. The only time any portal opened/opens up and is called a door or window is in special cases, it is not and never was a feature of nature! Your pic is very misleading and inaccurate.
As for the 'gate' to heaven in the north, have you any support for that?

The picture seems to have earth floating on some great deep. That is not the case at all. The fountains of the deep did bring waters up that used to be somewhere in the interior of the earth, but the idea of floating is nowhere to be found.

I see you map has a place for the dead I assume, called sheol. Can you support it having existed what looks like few mountain sizes deep? Ha.

Then you have some bizarre cave icicle like looking 'foundations of heaven' on each side, seemingly also made of the dirt the land is. Hilarious fantasy.

Finally I see you have some strip over the sky you labeled as firmament. The problem is that all the stars were IN that firmament, obviously it is not up where airplanes or satellites fly! Any waters above where the stars are would look nothing whatsoever like that.

In all ways the pic is a fraud.

Why didn't you tell us that you did not understand the illustration? Since you did not understand it how could you call it a fraud?

 

[gnostic]

There are no windows or doors of/to heaven. Not a one.

It doesn’t say so in Genesis 1, but in Genesis 7 it does:

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

If it is merely metaphor, I wouldn’t put much stock to it, but if you are talking of literal Flood that literally covered the entire earth and even the high mountains, then windows of heavens shouldn’t be read as metaphorically.

That verse included the entire single sentence. If you going to treat “all the fountains of the great deep burst forth...” as literal, then what should treat “...and the windows of heavens were opened.” then it should be treated as literal. But if the first part is metaphorical, then so should be the second part.

You would either treat the whole narrative of Flood as literal or metaphorical, but not both.

And if the flood was merely metaphorical or as allegory, then actual global flood didn’t happen.

 

[Nimos]

The picture seems to have earth floating on some great deep. That is not the case at all. The fountains of the deep did bring waters up that used to be somewhere in the interior of the earth, but the idea of floating is nowhere to be found.

Guess those that made it, got to that conclusion based on the shape according to the bible.

Genesis 7:11
11 On the seventeenth day of the second month, when Noah was 600 years old, all the springs of the great deep burst open, the floodgates of the heavens were opened,

As also pointed out by others.

I see you map has a place for the dead I assume, called sheol. Can you support it having existed what looks like few mountain sizes deep? Ha.

I can't support that any of it have existed, only that it is what the bible tells us.

Num_16:30
But if the LORD creates something new, so that the ground opens its mouth and swallows them and everything that belongs to them and they all descend directly to Sheol while still alive, then you'll know that these men have spurned the LORD."

Num_16:33
So they and all that belonged to them descended alive to Sheol. Then the earth closed over them. That's how they were annihilated from the assembly.

Psa_86:13
For great is your gracious love to me; you've delivered me from the depths of Sheol.

Isa_7:11
"Ask a sign from the LORD your God. Make it as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven above."

Isa_57:9
You went to Molech with olive oil and increased your perfumes; you sent your ambassadors far away, you sent them down even to Sheol itself!

If you notice whenever they refer to Sheol its always down, below, deep, so seems rather logical to put it where they have I think.

Finally I see you have some strip over the sky you labeled as firmament. The problem is that all the stars were IN that firmament, obviously it is not up where airplanes or satellites fly! Any waters above where the stars are would look nothing whatsoever like that.

It seems to depend on what translation you use. KJV say firmament and ISV say sky.

In all ways the pic is a fraud.

I wouldn't call it a fraud, but an attempt to show Earth based on the bible.

Here is another one, you find that more accurate, its from Firmament - Wikipedia?

 

[dad]

It doesn’t say so in Genesis 1, but in Genesis 7 it does:

The portals that were opened brought water from beyond where stars are. Not sure how that sort of wormhole type of temporary opening supports your misconceptions.

If it is merely metaphor, I wouldn’t put much stock to it, but if you are talking of literal Flood that literally covered the entire earth and even the high mountains, then windows of heavens shouldn’t be read as metaphorically.

They WERE very real. They do not now exist because those universal portals closed some 4400 years ago! They are not a normal permanent feature of nature.

That verse included the entire single sentence. If you going to treat “all the fountains of the great deep burst forth...” as literal, then what should treat “...and the windows of heavens were opened.” then it should be treated as literal. But if the first part is metaphorical, then so should be the second part.

Nothing is metaphorical. Both were temporary events. There are not now either of these things in the world and nature.
Just as there is not NOW a worldwide flood!

 

[dad]

Guess those that made it, got to that conclusion based on the shape according to the bible.

Genesis 7:11
11 On the seventeenth day of the second month, when Noah was 600 years old, all the springs of the great deep burst open, the floodgates of the heavens were opened,

As also pointed out by others.

The windows opened for a short time then closed. There was no fixture of the sky or world that was windows of heaven!

I can't support that any of it have existed, only that it is what the bible tells us.

Num_16:30
But if the LORD creates something new, so that the ground opens its mouth and swallows them and everything that belongs to them and they all descend directly to Sheol while still alive, then you'll know that these men have spurned the LORD."

Yes there is a holding area for spirits somewhere in the interior of the earth. Your map had it say maybe a mile down. There are thousands of miles down there!

If you notice whenever they refer to Sheol its always down, below, deep, so seems rather logical to put it where they have I think.

Correct, it is real. There is also a max security holding area for some of the fallen angels down there. So? Nothing like your map.

It seems to depend on what translation you use. KJV say firmament and ISV say sky.

Doesn't matter since God made the stars in the firmament. Call it what you like the stars were still IN it!

I wouldn't call it a fraud, but an attempt to show Earth based on the bible.

Fraud.

Here is another one, you find that more accurate, its from Firmament - Wikipedia?

Yes, it does show waters as beyond the stars, in that respect it is more accurate. Still kindergarten level though.

 

[Nimos]

Yes, it does show waters as beyond the stars, in that respect it is more accurate. Still kindergarten level though.

Yes its kindergarten level, we are talking about the bible

On a more serious note though, how would you draw it based on the bible then?

 

[ecco]

We know, anything that involved more than the current nature is a miracle to you. Nice fairy tale.

If you are saying that I do not know what preceded the Big Bang, you are right. But I don't make up stories - and absolutely believe them, like you do.

Too bad science cannot confirm or deny that only the present nature ever existed eh?

Here is your big fantasy again. In order to justify the assertions of ignorant goatherders 6000 years ago, you make up a bunch of silly stories that only you believe.

I'm still waiting for any other indoctrinated fundies to show support for your fantasies. Even they know your "different nature out there, back then" is too ridiculous.

 

[ecco]

I have yet to see any Christian (or anyone for that matter) agree with you that time was different "back then". NO ONE! Just the silly imaginings of Dad. All alone in your make-believe fantasies.

Never said any such silly thing. Nature is not time, get a grip.
Be honest.

Oh. Riiight! "Never said any such silly thing".


Ooops...

The 5 billion year claim is based on the belief that time exists in deep space exactly as we know time here. So when we see light enter our area, it came from an unknown amount of time! Then AFTER it arrives, it naturally obeys our rules!

Light seen here obeys our laws ans exists in our time and our space.

If the time involved in deep space was, for example, say, only 1.4 seconds, how would that affect things there? Could we still say it was under the same laws?

We do not see all that is in far space. We do not know what else may be at work also. We do not know what space and time there are like.

I guess it was a different Dad that wrote those things.
Maybe Mrs. Dad snuck onto your computer.
Maybe it was one of those invisible spirits you keep talking about.

You'll never tell, so we'll never know.

 

[ecco]

(Gnostic asked for me to post this image here as he saw it in another thread, and thought it would be interesting in this one

SHEOL? SHEOL???

The ancients knew all about SHELL OIL. The picture even shows the oil in the ground.

-pause-

I have moved my keyboard to the floor so that I can type from bended knee. I have become a believer!

 

[ecco]

There are no windows or doors of/to heaven. Not a one. The only time any portal opened/opens up and is called a door or window is in special cases, it is not and never was a feature of nature!

Your pic is very misleading and inaccurate.

HILARIOUS!

 

[Nimos]

SHEOL? SHEOL???

The ancients knew all about SHELL OIL. The picture even shows the oil in the ground.

-pause-

I have moved my keyboard to the floor so that I can type from bended knee. I have become a believer!

I don't even know why I have to defend the picture I didn't make it and Im an atheist.

But purely based on the bible, I think the image fits rather well with how it is explained in it.

 

[dad]

Yes its kindergarten level, we are talking about the bible

On a more serious note though, how would you draw it based on the bible then?

Well, I would try not to. That would require a knowledge of what time and space are like at the far reaches of the firmament. Even here, we see that time and space can be 'bent'. So how would a different time and possibly a different space way out in the universe change or distort things from our perspective? We don't really know. What else is at work out there we are not familiar with here? How big would I draw the area to the end of the stars? You see, if time is not the same out there, there is no billions of years! Maybe the far side of the universe where stars are is only light days or weeks or months or years away? Man has sent probes not even a light day away!
Then we ask what the heaven of heavens out beyond the stars where God lives is like? How would we know? How can you draw all that?
Since windows of heaven do not exist now, how would we draw what they used to look like for the short time they opened up? How would we conceive conduits to the interior of the earth (founts of the deep)?
How would we draw pillars of foundations inside the earth? How would we draw the spiritual abode somewhere in the interior of the earth? Is it near the core? Who knows? etc etc

 

[dad]

Oh. Riiight! "Never said any such silly thing".


Ooops...

​

I guess it was a different Dad that wrote those things.
Maybe Mrs. Dad snuck onto your computer.
Maybe it was one of those invisible spirits you keep talking about.

You'll never tell, so we'll never know. Adam lived 930 years. Not millions of years.

 

[Nimos]

Well, I would try not to. That would require a knowledge of what time and space are like at the far reaches of the firmament. Even here, we see that time and space can be 'bent'. So how would a different time and possibly a different space way out in the universe change or distort things from our perspective? We don't really know. What else is at work out there we are not familiar with here? How big would I draw the area to the end of the stars? You see, if time is not the same out there, there is no billions of years! Maybe the far side of the universe where stars are is only light days or weeks or months or years away? Man has sent probes not even a light day away!
Then we ask what the heaven of heavens out beyond the stars where God lives is like? How would we know? How can you draw all that?
Since windows of heaven do not exist now, how would we draw what they used to look like for the short time they opened up? How would we conceive conduits to the interior of the earth (founts of the deep)?
How would we draw pillars of foundations inside the earth? How would we draw the spiritual abode somewhere in the interior of the earth? Is it near the core? Who knows? etc etc

Is it much different to make a drawing based on the bible, compared to when scientist make one of the big bang? I mean you draw based on the information you have and to the best of your knowledge. Sure it might be wrong, but you can always adjust it. An illustration or demonstration doesn't necessarily have to contain all information for it to be understandable. I think most people looking at the image below, know that the reason nothing have been drawn before the big bang is because we don't have the information required, but that does not prevent us for drawing those we have.

 

[dad]

Is it much different to make a drawing based on the bible, compared to when scientist make one of the big bang?

Yes. Making one of the BB is making it up.

I mean you draw based on the information you have and to the best of your knowledge.

Everything I draw looks like a stickman.

Sure it might be wrong, but you can always adjust it. An illustration or demonstration doesn't necessarily have to contain all information for it to be understandable. I think most people looking at the image below, know that the reason nothing have been drawn before the big bang is because we don't have the information required, but that does not prevent us for drawing those we have.

What they do not know is that everything before, during and after has no information about either. They use belief upon belief stacked on belief. That is not info.

 

[sooda]

The global flood is just about the fertile crescent... Snowmelt from the mountains combined with spring rains to flood the banks of the Tigris and Euphrates. Both emptied into the Persian Gulf which tens of thousands ago was a river.

The Global flood of Noah is dated about 2900 BC.. long, long after the dinosaurs were extinct.. and its a terrific children's story even for Bronze age man.