• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Genesis 6:20

Big_TJ

Active Member
JWs,
Genesis 6:20 of the 2013 edition of the NWT reads:

"of the flying creatures according to their kinds, the domestic animals according to their kinds, and all creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive."

Could you give me some example of what would be included in "flying creatures"? Perhaps 3 examples would suffice.

Thanks, as usual.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
JWs,
Genesis 6:20 of the 2013 edition of the NWT reads:

"of the flying creatures according to their kinds, the domestic animals according to their kinds, and all creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive."

Could you give me some example of what would be included in "flying creatures"? Perhaps 3 examples would suffice.

Thanks, as usual.

There are many different kinds of birds. We know that Noah had a Raven and a Dove on board because when the ark came to rest he sent out these two birds at different times. Its possible that he had a representative of each of the different kinds of birds.

Taking a guess he may have had 2 parrots, 2 doves, 2 chickens, 2 eagles, 2 ostriches and maybe some other kinds of bird specimens. Of course we don't know the specifics, but we do know for sure he had a raven and dove because they are mentioned by name.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
There are many different kinds of birds. We know that Noah had a Raven and a Dove on board because when the ark came to rest he sent out these two birds at different times. Its possible that he had a representative of each of the different kinds of birds.

Taking a guess he may have had 2 parrots, 2 doves, 2 chickens, 2 eagles, 2 ostriches and maybe some other kinds of bird specimens. Of course we don't know the specifics, but we do know for sure he had a raven and dove because they are mentioned by name.

So, biblically, a dove and a chicken are different 'kinds'; correct? Also, do you have any theories as to why the writers of the NWT 2013 edition prefer the term "flying creatures" instead of "birds"? Obviously not all flying creatures are birds (eg bats, ants, grasshoppers, etc). So, isn't the use of the term "flying creatures" completely changing the meaning of the original intent of the scripture?
 
So, biblically, a dove and a chicken are different 'kinds'; correct? Also, do you have any theories as to why the writers of the NWT 2013 edition prefer the term "flying creatures" instead of "birds"? Obviously not all flying creatures are birds (eg bats, ants, grasshoppers, etc). So, isn't the use of the term "flying creatures" completely changing the meaning of the original intent of the scripture?
Notice what it says in Genesis 7:8 King James Bible
Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,


Genesis 7:2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate,


Fowl: a gallinaceous bird kept chiefly for its eggs and flesh; a domestic **** or hen.

any other domesticated bird kept for its eggs or flesh, e.g., the turkey, duck, goose, and guineafowl.

So there were seven pairs of each of the fowls.

Ample Carrying Capacity. The passenger list of the ark was quite impressive. Besides Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives, living creatures “of every sort of flesh, two of each,” were to be taken aboard. “Male and female they will be. Of the flying creatures according to their kinds and of the domestic animals according to their kinds, of all moving animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive.” Of the clean beasts and fowls, seven of each kind were to be taken. A great quantity and variety of food for all these creatures, to last for more than a year, also had to be stowed away.—Ge 6:18-21; 7:2, 3.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000367#h=7:0-9:970



It's also interesting how in all of the common bible stories about the Ark and Noah,it always shows only 2 of every kind of animal.When it was really seven of the clean and two of the unclean animals.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
So, biblically, a dove and a chicken are different 'kinds'; correct?

Yes, if i've understood you correctly, i would agree with that conclusion. If we consider that he had a Raven and a Dove on board, then we can safely assume that the bird 'kinds' come in different families. Parrots are quite different to sparrows and sparrows are quite different to chickens. So yes, i would agree that these birds are different kinds.

Also, do you have any theories as to why the writers of the NWT 2013 edition prefer the term "flying creatures" instead of "birds"? Obviously not all flying creatures are birds (eg bats, ants, grasshoppers, etc). So, isn't the use of the term "flying creatures" completely changing the meaning of the original intent of the scripture?

Yes the reason for that is because Genesis 1:20 employs the hebrew word ʽohph, which has a broader meaning of “flying creature” and includes birds and other winged insects.

There is a hebrew word specifically for birds and it is tsip·pohr′ and it is not used in this verse.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
Yes, if i've understood you correctly, i would agree with that conclusion. If we consider that he had a Raven and a Dove on board, then we can safely assume that the bird 'kinds' come in different families. Parrots are quite different to sparrows and sparrows are quite different to chickens. So yes, i would agree that these birds are different kinds.

ok; thanks.

Yes the reason for that is because Genesis 1:20 employs the hebrew word ʽohph, which has a broader meaning of “flying creature” and includes birds and other winged insects.

There is a hebrew word specifically for birds and it is tsip·pohr′ and it is not used in this verse.

Interesting.. So, is there a reason why the translators of NWT uses 'birds' at 1 Samuels 17:44, even though it was the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:20?
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
Notice what it says in Genesis 7:8 King James Bible
Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,


Genesis 7:2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate,


Fowl: a gallinaceous bird kept chiefly for its eggs and flesh; a domestic **** or hen.

any other domesticated bird kept for its eggs or flesh, e.g., the turkey, duck, goose, and guineafowl.

So there were seven pairs of each of the fowls.

Ample Carrying Capacity. The passenger list of the ark was quite impressive. Besides Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives, living creatures “of every sort of flesh, two of each,” were to be taken aboard. “Male and female they will be. Of the flying creatures according to their kinds and of the domestic animals according to their kinds, of all moving animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive.” Of the clean beasts and fowls, seven of each kind were to be taken. A great quantity and variety of food for all these creatures, to last for more than a year, also had to be stowed away.—Ge 6:18-21; 7:2, 3.

Ark — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY



It's also interesting how in all of the common bible stories about the Ark and Noah,it always shows only 2 of every kind of animal.When it was really seven of the clean and two of the unclean animals.

I have re-read your post about 5 times, and I am still not sure how it relates to the question that was asked.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
ok; thanks.



Interesting.. So, is there a reason why the translators of NWT uses 'birds' at 1 Samuels 17:44, even though it was the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:20?

it is most likely due to the context of that verse that the translators chose 'bird'

In that passage of scripture, Goliath is threatening young David and he says that he will give his 'flesh' (ie his dead body) to the ʽohph of the heavens'

In this context, 'ohph is most likely referring to the birds that fly and eat the dead carcasses they find on the ground. As 'ohph can mean all flying things in general, then the translator has to find a word which fits with the context and in this case, birds would be the best word to give the right idea of what Goliath was saying.

There is a word specifically for winged insects...that word is she′rets
so the translators would have concluded that Goliath did not mean winged insects would eat his flesh but another type of flying creature.
 
I have re-read your post about 5 times, and I am still not sure how it relates to the question that was asked.
Sorry. I was just making a distinction between regular birds and ones considered clean,fowls.
I saw where you all were talking about the different kinds of birds.Pegg said,"Taking a guess he may have had 2 parrots, 2 doves, 2 chickens, 2 eagles, 2 ostriches and maybe some other kinds of bird specimens." So that's why I showed you all where it says that fowls are considered clean animals.So...there would have been 7 pairs of those and not two.Chickens and ostriches are Fowls because their eggs are used as food and so is their meat,so these would have been in pairs of seven, not two.

Ps.Doves are eaten by some but are technically not considered fowl or poultry.They fall under Columbidae.
 
Last edited:

Big_TJ

Active Member
it is most likely due to the context of that verse that the translators chose 'bird'

In that passage of scripture, Goliath is threatening young David and he says that he will give his 'flesh' (ie his dead body) to the ʽohph of the heavens'

In this context, 'ohph is most likely referring to the birds that fly and eat the dead carcasses they find on the ground. As 'ohph can mean all flying things in general, then the translator has to find a word which fits with the context and in this case, birds would be the best word to give the right idea of what Goliath was saying.

There is a word specifically for winged insects...that word is she′rets
so the translators would have concluded that Goliath did not mean winged insects would eat his flesh but another type of flying creature.

OK.. this makes sense. The only issue that it contradict what you said here (as it relates to the Genesis verse):

There is a hebrew word specifically for birds and it is tsip·pohr′ and it is not used in this verse.

So, if you are consistent, then the bible wouldn't be talking about 'bird' in Samuels since it didn't use the specific word for bird. So it seems we do not know what the bible really meant in Samuels; do we?
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
Sorry. I was just making a distinction between regular birds and ones considered clean,fowls.
I saw where you all were talking about the different kinds of birds.Pegg said,"Taking a guess he may have had 2 parrots, 2 doves, 2 chickens, 2 eagles, 2 ostriches and maybe some other kinds of bird specimens." So that's why I showed you all where it says that fowls are considered clean animals.So...there would have been 7 pairs of those and not two.Chickens and ostriches are Fowls because their eggs are used as food and so is their meat,so these would have been in pairs of seven, not two.

Ps.Doves are eaten by some but are technically not considered fowl or poultry.They fall under Columbidae.

Ok; understood.

However, I am not sure that the bible said that the fowl are considered "clean" and the 'regular birds' are considered "unclean." Is there a biblical reference for this belief?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Sorry. I was just making a distinction between regular birds and ones considered clean,fowls.
I saw where you all were talking about the different kinds of birds.Pegg said,"Taking a guess he may have had 2 parrots, 2 doves, 2 chickens, 2 eagles, 2 ostriches and maybe some other kinds of bird specimens." So that's why I showed you all where it says that fowls are considered clean animals.So...there would have been 7 pairs of those and not two.Chickens and ostriches are Fowls because their eggs are used as food and so is their meat,so these would have been in pairs of seven, not two.

Ps.Doves are eaten by some but are technically not considered fowl or poultry.They fall under Columbidae.

Ah yes, good point Bible Student!... i didnt think of that :)
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Ok; understood.

However, I am not sure that the bible said that the fowl are considered "clean" and the 'regular birds' are considered "unclean." Is there a biblical reference for this belief?

Yes there is a distinction between clean and unclean birds.

Deut 14:11 “You may eat any clean bird. 12 But you must not eat these: the eagle, the osprey, the black vulture, 13 the red kite, the black kite, every kind of glede, 14 every kind of raven, 15 the ostrich, the owl, the gull, every kind of falcon, 16 the little owl, the long-eared owl, the swan, 17 the pelican, the vulture, the cormorant, 18 the stork, every kind of heron, the hoopoe, and the bat. 19 Every winged swarming creature also is unclean for you. They should not be eaten. 20 Any clean flying creature you may eat.


Leviticus 11:46 “‘This is the law about the animals, the flying creatures, every living creature that moves through the waters, and concerning every creature that swarms on the earth, 47 in order to make a distinction between the unclean and the clean and between the living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.


So as Bible Student said, there would have been a pair of each of these unclean kinds of birds. But of the clean birds, there would have been 7 and possibly even 7 pairs.
 

te_lanus

Alien Hybrid
JWs,
Genesis 6:20 of the 2013 edition of the NWT reads:

"of the flying creatures according to their kinds, the domestic animals according to their kinds, and all creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive."

Could you give me some example of what would be included in "flying creatures"? Perhaps 3 examples would suffice.

Thanks, as usual.
These didn't make it to the ark in time
  1. Chimera
  2. Pegasus
  3. Wyvern
 
Ok; understood.

However, I am not sure that the bible said that the fowl are considered "clean" and the 'regular birds' are considered "unclean." Is there a biblical reference for this belief?
Just as swine were considered unclean ,and were not eaten by Jews, so were unclean birds.Birds such as ones that ate prey were unclean animals.Like eagles,buzzards,vultures etc.. Fowls are birds used for food ,and their eggs, such as Chickens,Turkeys,ducks,geese etc.. These are clean.


This is where many get confused.People think this next verse means, two of every sort , meaning only two animals.What this really is saying is two of every sort,meaning male and female.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

So we can clearly see that it refers to male and female when it says two of every sort.

Notice now how it describes the kinds of animals, and then it says the number of them also.

7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,


We must remember that animal flesh was not eaten until the time after Noah touched ground, after the flood.Before this time God's people ate vegetation.So it all started with the eight.Now I am not sure if God explained the rules of eating clean and unclean animals to Noah at that time or not.I know it was explained in Leviticus to Moses and Aaron.


LEVITICUS 11
13 “‘These are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

20 “‘All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you. 21 There are, however, some flying insects that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. 22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. 23 But all other flying insects that have four legs you are to regard as unclean.

24 “‘You will make yourselves unclean by these; whoever touches their carcasses will be unclean till evening. 25 Whoever picks up one of their carcasses must wash their clothes, and they will be unclean till evening.


So from these passages we can clearly see that Chickens ,Geese,Turkeys,ducks etc.. are clean animals to eat.These are fowls.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
Guys
I think the discussion on the clean and unclean birds is interesting and I would like to continue it in a separate thread if you don't mind (I will start a thread for this). In the meantime, I would like to get back to the original thread and would really like a response to this:

it is most likely due to the context of that verse that the translators chose 'bird'

In that passage of scripture, Goliath is threatening young David and he says that he will give his 'flesh' (ie his dead body) to the ʽohph of the heavens'

In this context, 'ohph is most likely referring to the birds that fly and eat the dead carcasses they find on the ground. As 'ohph can mean all flying things in general, then the translator has to find a word which fits with the context and in this case, birds would be the best word to give the right idea of what Goliath was saying.

There is a word specifically for winged insects...that word is she′rets
so the translators would have concluded that Goliath did not mean winged insects would eat his flesh but another type of flying creature.

OK.. this makes sense. The only issue that it contradict what you (Pegg) said here (as it relates to the Genesis verse):

There is a hebrew word specifically for birds and it is tsip·pohr′ and it is not used in this verse.

So, if you are consistent, then the bible wouldn't be talking about 'bird' in Samuels since it didn't use the specific word for bird. So it seems we do not know what the bible really meant in Samuels; do we?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Guys
I think the discussion on the clean and unclean birds is interesting and I would like to continue it in a separate thread if you don't mind (I will start a thread for this). In the meantime, I would like to get back to the original thread and would really like a response to this:



OK.. this makes sense. The only issue that it contradict what you (Pegg) said here (as it relates to the Genesis verse):

There is a hebrew word specifically for birds and it is tsip·pohr′ and it is not used in this verse.

So, if you are consistent, then the bible wouldn't be talking about 'bird' in Samuels since it didn't use the specific word for bird. So it seems we do not know what the bible really meant in Samuels; do we?

The word in Genesis 1:20 is not a specific word for 'bird' it is a general word for 'flying creatures' which includes both insects and birds.

Their is a specific word for birds in general, that is tsip.pohr' and there is a specific word for birds of prey. But as the general flying creatures word is used, the translators have to decide which english word is the best fit. In this case, 'birds' is the best fit because, as we know, birds eat the flesh of dead animals and that is what Goliath was threatening would happen to david....he would be slain and his body left for the flying creatures to eat.

birds is the best fit in the context.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
Since, as you say, "birds" is clearly the best fit in the context of the verse, is there any idea why the orginal writers did not use the word that specifically means "birds". Also, is there any verse that you know of where the word translated as "flying creatures" by the translators is used to to mean anything other than "birds"?
 
Top